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I finally want it.....

Well- I had a slip up after some clean time (frustrated still not inducted onto the clinic- they are waiting for medical records from the hospital even though they have all my doctors; my counselor is going to meet with the medical team and see (or she already did today) what is up for next tuesday being inducted) but oddly enough it was some kpins from an AA member who didn't take theirs and has years sober yet was willing to sell meds. Well I was supposed to go to the meeting across the street and ended up going- but there was a kid there who had lost a couple people recently, stopped to talk to me and said I was either going to the hospital or he was calling 911 (and I am on bail so....). So now there are technically three hospital trips for benzos on record for like 5 weeks (none in years before that).

I'm really nervous they will start me at like 10 or 20mgs even though my counselor said it is usually 30mgs. I'm going to freak if they try to start me that low. I'm going to try to explain that the first two trips were really one trip (because I never remembered leaving) and the last one I took a couple because I was waiting and waiting to get on the methadone and don't feel right on my subs and I've tapered off completely and if my urines don't come up clean now they will very soon (benzos, especially very long acting ones, can hang around a WHILE- like probably weeks (maybe 3 or so) in some people for something like a chloro-diazepam although I think it will come out of me sooner because I'm very underweight and lean right now so not much fat for them to hide in being lipophilic.

My counselor did say most people start at 30mgs, just make sure to come in real sick (some start at 40mgs). I think it may be more that people get kicked off for keeping coming up dirty while on methadone.

Also, I just hope they don't get the records from the company of the last visit (it is an outside company that sends the records) since it just happened saturday. Nothing even happened; they asked me if I was going to drive and I said no and they let me go after just taking some blood or something.

And to add to it- I now have a source for cheap dope that is supposedly very good. I'm hanging in there, but I feel like if I get started crazy low I won't do so good. But still- it seems like everyone starts at 30 and it is failing for benzos while on the clinic that pisses them off. And it is sounding like I might not even start next tuesday but it did sound like they would consider it even without the hospital records maybe since they know what I was in there for.
 
You almost always start at 30 or 40 in some other cases, but 30 really is the norm. I have only very, very rarely heard of anyone starting at 20, and I don't think I've heard of anyone starting at 10, although I'm sure they're out there. Just exaggerate how much you used, like if you said you used 3g/day or heroin or like 400mg of oxycodone/day, then you're pretty much guaranteed to start at 40mg.

You don't have anything to worry about. You'll be fine.
 
Thanks- I have been thinking that. Unfortunately I won't be starting this tuesday either due to the hospital I had a trip to the emergency room in still not sending records. I don't know when this friggin hospital will send records. Also, a few days ago I ended up having shakiness, and it seemed like I couldn't get "undopesick" with suboxone. Well, I used some diclazepam and that did the trick (and probably used more than I had to that time). Two days later, same thing but I used less than half the dose. Today felt shaky, cut the dose by 1/3 and feel better (I took 4 drops today, probably have enough for 3 drops tomorrow and next day, then 2 for 2 days, and 1 for 2 days- I'm still only at the five week mark since starting benzos- not sure if I should order more diclaz when I get money tomorrow just in case or just finish that quick taper and roll with the punches). I know that my symptoms are not terrible so I might have some but I do think so long as I cut down they definitely are no where near like seizure threatening.
 
JM357 said:
Thanks- I have been thinking that. Unfortunately I won't be starting this tuesday either due to the hospital I had a trip to the emergency room in still not sending records. I don't know when this friggin hospital will send records. Also, a few days ago I ended up having shakiness, and it seemed like I couldn't get "undopesick" with suboxone. Well, I used some diclazepam and that did the trick (and probably used more than I had to that time). Two days later, same thing but I used less than half the dose. Today felt shaky, cut the dose by 1/3 and feel better (I took 4 drops today, probably have enough for 3 drops tomorrow and next day, then 2 for 2 days, and 1 for 2 days- I'm still only at the five week mark since starting benzos- not sure if I should order more diclaz when I get money tomorrow just in case or just finish that quick taper and roll with the punches). I know that my symptoms are not terrible so I might have some but I do think so long as I cut down they definitely are no where near like seizure threatening.
Click to expand...
You should start a thread in other drugs to see what they think about tapering or going C/T. Lots of people with benzos experience there.
 
Update: I have been going to meetings and have found a good sponsor. I would say I have been averaging six meetings a week (usually like 5 AA and 1 NA- in my town there are only two NA meetings and one of them I don't particularly care for- the other is fortunately only like a mile from my house and I can even just walk there although I have gotten rides; there are a lot more in the city that is 10-15 mins up the road by car, but I don't have a car and most of the support I've gained and rides I've been able to get are from people in my town who are in AA). I often miss a day or two a week when I go to visit my daughter but there is one day that I sometimes go to two meetings in a row if it looks like I will only get 5 in.

Am almost done tapering from the benzos- basically took it as slowly as possible; at one point I stopped but started getting shaky etc. Then someone offered me some kpins and I pigged out (I do feel like partially b/c I was feeling bad and not thinking right) and took 5mgs at once like three weeks ago. I ended up walking across to the meeting across the street. One of the guys there insisted I either go to the ER or he was going to call 911 b/c I seemed pretty intoxicated. Most people and my wife were arguing that b/c I was fully responsive etc. that I should just go and let it wear off and make more meetings and come up with a better plan. But he was insistent so I went to the ER where after an hour they asked if I was driving and I said no and they said I was free to go. Since then I tapered slowly, did 4 drops of chloro-diazepam (the drops were originally said to be 0.5 then the supplier told people the bottles turned out to be dispensing half what they originally thought and therefore 0.25) starting a few days after taking the 5 kpins- I actually had took some chloro after I got home (I know even worse; in my fucked up head I was pissed I had to go to the hospital and that "my high had been ruined and I fucked up my sobriety for nothing) so with that dose of benzos I waited a few until I actually started to feel bad and then took 4 drops for about 5 days, 3 drops for 5 days, took 2 drops yesterday and will today and tomorrow, followed by one drop for three days. I do believe the bottle thing b/c the probably 1/10th of 100mg bottle seems to have been lasting that whole time (possibly they seem to be even smaller as the bottle gets emptier? I know it would have been better to get regular diazepam from a doctor but that hasn't been an option, and my doses have gotten lower and lower and the total time on benzos is only a little over six weeks and the last like 2.5 have been a taper). So in a few days I should be ready to be off them after getting to one drop.

Now the clinic finally made a decision and scheduled my admission for thursday at 10:30. They just told me today. So I won't even have been off the suboxone for 72 hours- I took a little (like half of one- 4mgs) sublingually last night and then half of a zubsolv (someone gave me some of them claiming they are better than suboxone) intranasal b/c I thought they might be scheduling soon and I wanted a shorter half life on the subs. And I took maybe a third of a zubsolv this morning at like 8 intranasal. They told me not to continue taking it now but they just told me (they literally called back to schedule while typing this post). The thing is- from some of the research I've been doing, it doesn't seem like methadone after suboxone should cause precipatated WDs. Actually one of the medical papers I was reading recommended giving suboxone patients methadone for the 72 hours before surgery. Admittedly I had even been shooting the strips in anticipation for getting on methadone due to the much shorter half life (the injectable amps say a mean half-life of 2.2 hours for the bupe injection and I have to say I get sick very quickly and had been doing 1mg at least about every 4 hours otherwise my pupils would get huge and I'd have all the signs of WDs). I know this is not exactly sober, but I am really trying to get there and the having to wait 1 month between the interview and going on methadone has been torturous. Especially b/c it would seem like each week "this was the week" and then I was expecting to start on a monday (thought that was the only day the doctor was there) and not on a thursday and I thought I would be starting next monday even when they said I was approved. I think this is more a question for "other drugs" though.
 
You wont have precipitated withdrawals going from suboxone to methadone. Its good that you have been able to taper some more even though I wish you had done it with medical supervision. That sucks about the ER but you really should try not to show up at meetings high as its really disrespectful. Its good your getting on methadone since it doesn't seem like the sub is doing you much good. Shooting sub is extremely dangerous I met a guy at my clinic who has some gnarly scars from an infection he got in his arm after a partially missed sub shot. I am really surprised it took you so long to get on methadone. When I got on the whole process from phone call to dosing took 48 hours.

Keep your head up. Things will get better as long as you keep putting effort into your recovery. Getting a sponsor is a really big step. I applaud you for that. Have you thought about getting into counseling with a qualified therapist? Identifying the reason you abuse drugs will help you avoid relapse and make you a happier person in the long run.

But anyway kick ass job so far! Goodluck with your appointment at the clinic!
 
Thank you, Yeah, I know it is not great to show up high at meetings- I didn't really plan on doing it. I guess more what happened is I had planned on going to the meeting. Then I got offered the kpins and when I took them I thought my tolerance to benzos would actually be a lot higher. I've got to say flubramazolam, which I'm pretty sure they sent instead of etizolam, and I ordered two bottles of it (at 25mgs a bottle, so possibly I ended up getting both a gram of it and another 50 mgs) is a really fucked up benzo (although admittedly I had heard that here before this). I seemed to build a high tolerance specifically for it. I have heard other people say this as well- while it increased benzo tolerance for them on the whole it also seems to build a specific tolerance to it (I guess some of the thought was it is a triazolo benzo which I didn't think was that rare, but most specifically it seems to be compared to triazolam in effect which is a benzo I've never encountered). So then I took 5mgs and thought "I used to take 3mgs before and seem fine," I'm sure part of that thinking was also pushed along by intoxication.

I know the shooting subs part isn't good- I have had abcesses from it before. I think the only reason I haven't had even more is due to having the strips. Not saying that makes it good, but I seem to have noticed it seems even easier to get one from the pills, probably due to the fact that even though the strips obviously aren't pure they probably don't contain the level of binders/fillers of the pills and being easier to filter. Then it became a thing about the control as well- even when I wasn't using I guess you could say it was a reservation. I know some people disagree on it but I've found at least with me the half-life and effects of IVing bupe to be very different from sublingually which is also somewhat different from intranasal (basically from longest half life to shortest it seemed sublingual -> insulffated -> IV). So when I IVed it it was like 1mg every 4 hours or so (sometimes three at some points- before when I had been using dope when I could after a binge it would seem to take 8 or 9 mgs a day but would drop to maybe 6mgs after 3-4 days of not using. And it would seem like 1mg would be the eqiuvalent to almost a whole 8mg strip in immediate effect but wear off much much more quickly. And then due to that when I wanted to use it would seem to have a very good effect 6 hours after the last shot and full effect like 10 hours after. So I had finally said to myself I would stop and took the half sublingually and like 5mgs or so total last night and this morning insulffated. Then they told me I was starting thursday. So I can't keep taking it, at least not with a long half life through sublingual dosing, and am sort of happy I don't have a big build like I would with daily dosing. I definitely don't recommend it to others to IV; I guess I really got wrapped up in that level of control over it being in me. But I couldn't even sleep through the night when I would have had a 36 hour (or at least 24 hour, everyone is different and after taking it for a long time it also seemed like it got processed a lot quicker) half-life otherwise (the most I could make it is 5 or 6 hours, and that would only be if I was sleeping well, without waking up feeling shitty with huge dialated pupils). So honestly anyone on it long term would end up probably being a lot more comfortable if taking it sublingually.

It seems to vary wildly how long it takes to get into the clinic depending on which one it is and where. Normally it wouldn't have taken this long but they kept having problems with my records, and still claimed to not even have all of them but that they finally pushed the doctor to review it. There is a wait list but I feel like that took about a week, then I had an interview on a Wednesday and normally would have started the next monday. Instead it took like a month. I was afraid the doc was going to review it and say no; but it seems like from talking to others that is pretty rare and they seem to take most everyone and then also start them at 30-40mgs as you said. The benzo thing would be more of an issue if I kept abusing them from the sounds of it. Then they eventually even kick people off, but I'm not going to continue using them and I'm not sure how long it will take to get out of me but I know that in their continued testing it won't keep coming up.

Also, I'm supposed to get counseling at the clinic but if my medicaid will allow it I will seek additional counseling elsewhere. I think they are going to start at once a week and eventually it is once every couple weeks I will meet with the counselor for an hour.
 
Talked to my sponsor tonight about the methadone- it was floating out there that it was a possibility but I had started to feel like they were going to say no (probably just me being crazy) especially when they said the doctor would review my case on a Monday as opposed to dosing. Then as I stated before they just let me know. I thought he was maybe not going to want to sponsor me anymore but we had talked about my problems before that were secondary to addiction (the severe back pain) and he knew I had been on suboxone and still relapsed multiple times. He was surprisingly positive- he just said be honest with yourself and don't keep having the dose pushed up so I can feel high (he said he thought that was the main problem he'd seen before with methadone- people going to super high doses (and I'm not judging anyone's dose- I know due to metabolism etc. that different people need different doses and some quite higher than others; oddly in the past methadone has seemed to "hold" me longer than bupe does when comparing once I've been on each a few months (even when I took the bupe the way I was supposed to I seemed to need to take some about every eight hours- maybe an hour before sleep, upon waking, and once in the middle of the day, at one point I tried taking it all at once and it didn't work) as it seems my body learns to process the bupe faster and I seem to process most things quickly probably due to fast metabolism, low bodyfat, enzymes, etc. but methadone actually seemed to hold me well with even the lower doses of like 50-60 definitely holding me in the past so long as I wasn't abusing other things)).

I'm starting to feel pretty sick now. But I'm just going to chill out and watch TV, I know I probably won't sleep but I'm not going to let that bother me since it will only be tonight and maybe another night or two until the done starts to build up. I know if I do dope during that time I'll probably just raise my tolerance and have to wait longer for the methadone to start working, where as if I don't time will be passing and blood and brain levels rising and those two will meet and I will feel better. I'm excited b/c I know shooting the subs was really bad and I won't be doing that anymore, and that in the past when I took methadone following medical advice I got to a point where I was pretty comfortable as far as cravings, pain, and withdrawals go. I am also scared too. Medicaid will be providing rides for me (I scheduled it as a daily 8 o'clock appointment so they will pick me up between 7:30-7:45; so I also know since I probably won't be dosed till like 11:30-12 (they said it is a two hour appointment and starts at ten) that the first day it will only be like 20 hours between doses and that first day is usually the hardest (due to the 24 hour half life if you still have half left there would be a significant increase between the first and second days and somewhat of an increase on the third- which is why the clinic I'm going to now does 3 days in between dosage increases and will do 5mgs every three days for the first 30 days if the patient wants it; I don't think I'll need to go up to 80 but am going to go by the right thing to do instead of deciding on just a target dosage and being stubborn about it) but for the first day my father is picking me up and bringing me for support. My wife isn't home tonight but is coming home tomorrow- in a way I am happy because I will not disturb anyone if I stay up, watch movies, pace, etc. Well I'll let you guys know how it goes... I'm really looking forward to knowing I am doing everything as prescribed etc. and I think the methadone can get me there in combination with the support I've built, meetings, my sponsor, etc. I am afraid about the court date for the misdemeanor BUT I will have my meeting slip, letter from sponsor, letter from clinic, signed up for parenting classes, etc. so I doubt they will suddenly like raise my bail at arraignment.
 
Just got home from my appointment (took three hours due to computer problems) and me and my father stopped at walmart and Mcdonald's after. They started dosing at 20, and I asked if I was being given a low dose for some reason and they said no- that they actually start many at 10 or 15 now (I guess a few people with tiny/non-existant habits went in and were able to get their way to start at 30/40mg doses and potentiated and added drugs and ODed and sued them or some shit.... ). But it isn't like cold turkey (and I was just taking like a sub a day most days so I guess it isn't the same as if I had still been viciously abusing dope) I guess and it will build up every day (and since I didn't get it till 1pm the first day it will only be like 19 hours till my second dose- so the delay may have been a blessing in disguise) and I will still probably feel not TOO bad (especially after repeated dosing/build-up). But yeah.... they are being a lot more careful now, 20mgs days 1-3, 25 4-6, 30 7-10, 35 11-13, etc. and the increases are automatic if you want them for the first 30 days (which brings to 70mgs) then the patient has to speak with the counselor... I doubt I will even get to 70mgs but we'll see.
 
Today was my seventh day- up to 30mgs (finally, those really low doses have been rough and I have to admit I took a couple of soma at night a few times; I haven't been using dope other than a slip up my second day at 20mgs in the evening when I was offered it and felt like crap; I'm not trying to make excuses though I know I just have to get through this). I am starting to feel a bit better and my sleep schedule is starting to slide a bit back towards normal. I think the dose increases, build-up, and combination of having been mostly successful at staying away from other opioids for seven days is starting to make it more bearable. I still think I need a few more increases though (to 45 or 50; I don't know) as it doesn't seem stable yet, I still have some withdrawal symptoms at some points, and there are still cravings for SOMETHING (oddly I don't seem to crave heroin the most though- I seem to crave pills more). I did get my RX for gabapentin today and get my RX for clonidine tomorrow. I think those will help me feel better while getting to where I need to be even though my doctor has said hopefully I won't need them once properly on methadone (they are still being prescribed for now though). I can't imagine taking my adderall yet though and think it will probably be a couple weeks before I can even think about it.

I went in yesterday and they tell me I have a face to face with the doctor tomorrow at 10:30- even though I have court tomorrow morning and get transported there by a medicaid contract with the cab company and arrive at like 5:45 or a little earlier (this will work out fine on Friday- there is a group at 5:30 and I have counseling at 6:30; the counselor said if I am ten-fifteen minutes late for the group they will still count it). They said the doc gets in at 6 tomorrow and the head nurse said they will try to slide me in so I can get to court on time (hopefully I get picked up there by 7:15, get home by 7:30, and leave for court to get there for 8:15 (it is a 30 minute walk or 5-10 minute drive from my home)). If I end up being late my wife will be there too and will have to say something to the judge about how I have to be at treatment (if the patient misses any days between either day 1-10 or 1-30 (not sure but know I can't miss any) they get dropped back to 20mgs and start over....the clinic I am at is super cautious) and will be there as soon as possible. I do have a letter saying I am recieving treatment there. Tomorrow and Friday are going to be very stressful and I am just praying they go right and I will be so happy when it is Saturday. I am also praying they don't decide to up my bail for some reason and throw me in jail- I can't see why as I turned myself in to the police station when I was told there was a warrant, it is a misdemeanor, and it is only an arraignment (I don't even have my lawyer yet I have to fill out a financial affadavit for one that day).

So some tough days ahead...am really stressed and had to take my gabapentin today and will probably continue to take doses throughout today and tomorrow....the biggest thing is the arraignment...the group (which is on policy) is a hassle but I can do it...and I know I need the counseling. Still been going to meetings and even though I have forgot some signatures I still have some 14 or so for the past 3 or 3.5 weeks and will have a letter from my sponsor. I am also on the waiting list for parenting classes. I just hope they don't go "you have a record! a PR bail (which cost $40 to post) isn't enough!" They didn't revoke my bail years ago when I had a misdemeanor for driving without a license... and it isn't even a felony... but I am very paranoid.
 
I went to court- the prosecutor already had a deal to offer: 1 year probation and 2 years good behavior (so basically a year of probation and don't get in trouble after that) with 1 year house of corrections suspended and one of the two misdemeanors being dropped. Being a multiple time felon and having the case sound pretty bad against me I took it. I check in to probation on Monday. Will probably still have stuff in my system (I did end up taking a couple kpins a couple of nights- I know it is bad considering I just finished my tape like 5 days before but I have just been struggling with my dose which is up to 35mgs today (finally starting to get to a reasonable amount considering I haven't taken other opioids- 30mgs still hasn't been holding me but I did sleep last night). I am at the point now though where I am not taking anything else that is not prescribed. I think I should be at the point where I am not real sick and even though my psycho-pharm forgot to call in my refill I got an emergency supply of clonidine so between that and gabapentin to have until my dose holds I should be okay.
 
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