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Phenibut for PAWS?

M

MyExcuse

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So I've had a love-hate relationship with GABAb agonists for the past 8 years starting with GHB and ending most recently with phenibut. I've probably had withdrawals from each 2 times respectively over the duration of use, one requiring hospitalization.

I have not used for 5 months. I recently started a new job and this is the first time I've had a job where I have not had any sort of anti-anxiety type drugs in my system.

Since stopping, I've had a lot of random cravings, obsessive thinking and cravings for random drugs.

I hate being dependent on things and, while slight, phenibut does alter my personality.

My dilemma is that I feel in need of some type of anxiolytic but all of them are addictive. I'm wondering if I should simply return to using low doses of phenibut? (which I don't have a hard time controlling, albeit the useful dose for me is about 1g daily).

Should I avoid all use to try and let my system normalize?
 
I'm unsure about why phenibut is so much more addictive than baclofen when they are strongly structurally related. If low-dose phenibut works for you and shows to be sustainable, then I'd say it won't be the worst thing to take daily, but not the best either.

There is possible evidence for GAT1 inhibitors - tiagabine being the only one available by prescription and only in France - to be less addictive / tolerance inducing than other GABAergics, but this has not yet been proven and tiagabine can possibly induce seizures in people who haven't had them before. It showed some good results for GAD though and when I've tried it, it was effective and did not seem to induce dependency (but I did not want to prolong it either based on the inconclusive data and risk developing a GABAergic tolerance).

Pregabalin / Gabapentin might be considerable, but they could have unwanted cognitively impairing side effects due to stopping the formation of new synapses.
 
Phenibut and baclofen actually have quite different pharmacodynamical profiles, especially considering their structural similarity. For example, phenibut has considerable activity at the voltage-dependent calcium ion channels while baclofen at typical doses has negligible activity there.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009130571530037X

I think there were some other differences, but they escape me right now. If you're interested, I can try to refresh my memory. By the way I'm not saying that this is the reason one is addictive and other isn't - I actually thought baclofen was just as addictive as phenibut.

To the OP: I would say that if you feel better on phenibut, then go ahead. 1 gram a day isn't a large dose at all, so if you function better while using it, there should be nothing wrong with it. I don't think such a daily dose will lead to any significant physical dependence/withdrawal. I personally can't take phenibut for prolonged periods of time for some reason, I just start feeling "off", like in a fog. It also greatly increases my cravings for alcohol, which is quite a paradoxical reaction as phenibut is used against alcoholism.
 
belligerent drunk said:
I think there were some other differences, but they escape me right now. If you're interested, I can try to refresh my memory. By the way I'm not saying that this is the reason one is addictive and other isn't - I actually thought baclofen was just as addictive as phenibut.
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I'd be very interested in why baclofen is said to be sustainable for years (unless administrated intrathecal) but phenibut seems to cause rapid tolerance. I can't bring on personal experiences because I have been too afraid of GABA-B withdrawal to use phenibut for more than a few days & baclofen was utterly useless to me.. causing cognitive disturbances and excessive sweating.

To the OP: I would say that if you feel better on phenibut, then go ahead. 1 gram a day isn't a large dose at all, so if you function better while using it, there should be nothing wrong with it. I don't think such a daily dose will lead to any significant physical dependence/withdrawal.
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With the recent new findings about the MOA of phenibut, bringing it closer to the gabapentinoids, I'd agree to this. But be cautious still, 1g of phenibut daily over some time might be enough to cause a disturbing and possibly dangerous withdrawal. Maybe it depends on your genetics?

belligerent drunk said:
I personally can't take phenibut for prolonged periods of time for some reason, I just start feeling "off", like in a fog. It also greatly increases my cravings for alcohol, which is quite a paradoxical reaction as phenibut is used against alcoholism.
Click to expand...
Interesting, as baclofen is used sometimes successfully to get people off alcohol..
 
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dopamimetic said:
I'd be very interested in why baclofen is said to be sustainable for years (unless administrated intrathecal) but phenibut seems to cause rapid tolerance. I can't bring on personal experiences because I have been too afraid of GABA-B withdrawal to use phenibut for more than a few days & baclofen was utterly useless to me.. causing cognitive disturbances and excessive sweating.
Click to expand...

I'm only speculating here, but I think it may be connected to the fact that phenibut is mostly used outside of clinical setting, in a self-medicating and/or recreational manner, meaning typically higher-than-needed doses, which is a slippery slope as we know. On the other hand, baclofen is mostly used in a clinical setting as a prescription medicine; since they both have fairly low recreational potential in most individuals (phenibut is hardly recreational for me and for many others), there is little incentive to take higher doses than prescribed.

I have encountered anecdotal reports of people having tolerance and withdrawal problems with baclofen, but they were people who tried to abuse the drug. And I haven't actually encountered many people who have, so this is why I assume most people don't and just follow the doctor's advise in dosing. What do you think?
 
Yeah, I don't know. I've avoided to use phenibut for more than a few occasions fearing of GABAergic withdrawal ... but it would make sense that they aren't that different in the end.

So it could be that GABA-B actually makes a better treatment target than GABA-A in the end and that the reports of withdrawals etc are exacerbated due to people abusing the substances...??
 
dopamimetic said:
Yeah, I don't know. I've avoided to use phenibut for more than a few occasions fearing of GABAergic withdrawal ... but it would make sense that they aren't that different in the end.
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As far as anecdotal evidence goes, I think >10g/day (ongoing for a significant period of time) habit has the potential to cause severe GABAergic withdrawal. Anything less than ~3-4g/day, especially if used with breaks inbetween, is typically reported not to cause any noticeable discomfort upon cessation. Keep in mind that phenibut is quite a weak agonist compared to benzos for example. So you shouldn't really fear it like the plague.

On the other hand, it is always good when you avoid using a substance like you do. I have the same fear of benzos and harder opioids, which is why I have no intentions of trying them and it doesn't cause me any mental discomfort.
 
Avoid phenibut, especially if you have any PAWS! I tried to use this to "cure" my PAWS once upon a time. I ended up using it several times per day, nearly throwing up every time I felt like I needed more. It will do nothing to help your benzo withdrawals, and it will exacerbate opiate withdrawals, in the end.

Word of warning - leave it alone! Recovery takes time. Use it.
 
Munchkoala said:
Avoid phenibut, especially if you have any PAWS! I tried to use this to "cure" my PAWS once upon a time. I ended up using it several times per day, nearly throwing up every time I felt like I needed more. It will do nothing to help your benzo withdrawals, and it will exacerbate opiate withdrawals, in the end.

Word of warning - leave it alone! Recovery takes time. Use it.
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Well, there's the second opinion.

I actually found something interesting reading about phenibut the other day. Lapin (2001) suggests that chronic phenibut administration antagonizes the development of morphine tolerance in mice as well as reducing withdrawal symptoms. I wish this aspect were further investigated.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2001.tb00211.x/epdf (page 4, GABA mimetic action)
 
belligerent drunk said:
Well, there's the second opinion.

I actually found something interesting reading about phenibut the other day. Lapin (2001) suggests that chronic phenibut administration antagonizes the development of morphine tolerance in mice as well as reducing withdrawal symptoms. I wish this aspect were further investigated.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2001.tb00211.x/epdf (page 4, GABA mimetic action)
Click to expand...

Thinking in the big picture of NMDA/glutamate modulation of mu opioid receptors & that NMDA receptors are calcium channels by some way - with the gabapentinoids blocking calcium channels, this makes sense :)
 
You'll make yourself a big favour if you abstain from GABAergics completely. I took benzodiazepines for ~9 years and I started taking them when I was 14 because I couldn't stand being depressed and enraged all the time, after one traumatic event I became terribly anxious in social situations. My anxiety and depression lasted and lasted, and got worse when I was dependent on opioids and benzodiazepines. I managed to quit BZDs 2 years ago and it was the best decision in my life after all the mistakes and failures. I'm finally free from the social anxiety and started developing some meaningful relationships with good sincere people, which, as I realized, was basically all I needed throughout all the years of my misery. I've had the fear of rejection all my life, but I managed to get it under control in the last 2 years.

The best way to deal with your anxiety is to look within yourself and find the reason for it. If you keep taking GABAergics, it will be impossible to overcome the anxiety, these drugs basically slow down all learning processes and this includes finding new solutions to life problems. Don't get stuck, quitting is hard and painful but you learn the most through pain once you get it under control.
 
Do you think the same might apply to NMDA / glutamate? That taking dissociatives to relieve anxiety & depression will lead to even worse conditions ... and one should get through the withdrawal as long as it is possible?
 
belligerent drunk said:
Well, there's the second opinion.

I actually found something interesting reading about phenibut the other day. Lapin (2001) suggests that chronic phenibut administration antagonizes the development of morphine tolerance in mice as well as reducing withdrawal symptoms. I wish this aspect were further investigated.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2001.tb00211.x/epdf (page 4, GABA mimetic action)
Click to expand...
It was probably scrapped, due to the short half life of phenibut, and the short time to develop tolerance. That study is on mice. From personal experience, I have been going through severe opiate and benzo withdrawals before, and one of those times I tried to use phenibut to keep them at bay. I'm not saying it did nothing, but I can say for certain that it made the recovery process a lot more prolonged, and I'm not even discussing when I've taken it for protracted withdrawals.
dopamimetic said:
Do you think the same might apply to NMDA / glutamate? That taking dissociatives to relieve anxiety & depression will lead to even worse conditions ... and one should get through the withdrawal as long as it is possible?
Click to expand...
Dissociatives can be good for depression and anxiety iirc. That's the case for ketamine, anyway. I'm not saying go out and buy some ketamine, I am merely answering your question.

My opinion would be to live out the withdrawals as long as possible. They often come in waves, and one can find them-self thinking, at different times of the day, "you know what, this isn't too bad ... I can deal with this."
 
dopamimetic said:
I'm unsure about why phenibut is so much more addictive than baclofen when they are strongly structurally related. If low-dose phenibut works for you and shows to be sustainable, then I'd say it won't be the worst thing to take daily, but not the best either.

There is possible evidence for GAT1 inhibitors - tiagabine being the only one available by prescription and only in France - to be less addictive / tolerance inducing than other GABAergics, but this has not yet been proven and tiagabine can possibly induce seizures in people who haven't had them before. It showed some good results for GAD though and when I've tried it, it was effective and did not seem to induce dependency (but I did not want to prolong it either based on the inconclusive data and risk developing a GABAergic tolerance).

Pregabalin / Gabapentin might be considerable, but they could have unwanted cognitively impairing side effects due to stopping the formation of new synapses.
Click to expand...
Baclofen is around x60 more potent as a GABA-B agonist than Phenibut, and the only CNS action of Baclofen is GABA-B agonism, the rest is in the PNS, whereas Phenibut has at least 3 mechanisms of action in the CNS.

From personal experience, Baclofen withdrawal is far more severe than Phenibut withdrawals, and also after a week of major baclofen WD symptoms, I still experienced 3 months of unpleasant spams.

Both withdrawal on GABA-A or GABA-B receptors are different, but are equally bad, and both have the potential to be fatal if WDing from large enough doses.

Anxious.Individual
 
adder said:
You'll make yourself a big favour if you abstain from GABAergics completely. I took benzodiazepines for ~9 years and I started taking them when I was 14 because I couldn't stand being depressed and enraged all the time, after one traumatic event I became terribly anxious in social situations. My anxiety and depression lasted and lasted, and got worse when I was dependent on opioids and benzodiazepines. I managed to quit BZDs 2 years ago and it was the best decision in my life after all the mistakes and failures. I'm finally free from the social anxiety and started developing some meaningful relationships with good sincere people, which, as I realized, was basically all I needed throughout all the years of my misery. I've had the fear of rejection all my life, but I managed to get it under control in the last 2 years.

The best way to deal with your anxiety is to look within yourself and find the reason for it. If you keep taking GABAergics, it will be impossible to overcome the anxiety, these drugs basically slow down all learning processes and this includes finding new solutions to life problems. Don't get stuck, quitting is hard and painful but you learn the most through pain once you get it under control.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you agree with me that it is illogical to discard the possible therapeutic effects of low-dose weak GABAergics because of the horrible consequences of irresponsible use of strong GABAergics, benzos (I don't mean intentional abuse - the way a lot of doctors prescribe or used to prescribe them is irresponsible in many ways). Yes, of course it is best not to rely on any substance to feel good and lead a normal life, but sadly that is not the case for many of us. If a person can use their drugs responsibly, without raising dosages or going on binges, so that the symptoms are alleviated and it works for prolonged periods without side effects outweighing the positives, I see no reason why it should be bad. I understand that GABAergics can be addictive and if abused, the payback is enormous and horrible, which is why I say *responsible* low-dose use. 1g/day of phenibut, especially if taken throughout the day, is fairly benign and doesn't compare to typical benzos at all. It is also wise to take breaks to see if one gets any significant withdrawal symptoms to asses the extent of physical and mental dependence.

Caffeine addiction is also fairly unpleasant, but it's still ok to drink a cup of coffee in the morning.
 
I've taken phenibut before and in my experience the reason it is so addictive is because tolerance builds incredibly fast and the rebound anxiety from stopping is pretty nasty (not to mention its an extremely "dirty drug" to get high on) I got up to 7 grams of pure powder and luckily got off of it. If your trying to manage cravings and don't trust yourself then gabapenten is probably your best bet I've been prescribed it for major depression before. Although baclofen works really well, doesn't have terrible withdrawal and is a rare drug in which there's little to no build in tolerance. After getting my script for baclofen I would never go back to phenibut. I take 20mg 3 times a day
 
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Thank you for all of the insight!

Adder, I really appreciate that response. My life has unfortunately spiraled in the past year and I lost 5 years worth of mental and financial progress overnight. Right now I suffer daily generalized anxiety with no cause.

My plan now is to separate the isomers and experiment with mixed levels of R (primarily GABAb) and S (VGGC) to find what works best.

Gabapentin worked well, but like has been mentioned, has a bunting effect. GABAb agonists in general suppress neuronogenesis, so I intend to balance that this time around.

Thanks again :)
 
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