Large but infrequent/spaced out Kratom binges, and avoiding dependency

[Mycophile]

Ok this thread is almost entirely for Plasticity since he is the person who taught me about Kratom use.

I enjoy Kratom greatly and since I discovered it have wanted to be able to use it infrequently enough not to become a daily user, or to become SERIOUSLY dependent on it, or allow any WDs I might experience, if I experience them, to ruin my life.

I was taught/told that using Kratom now more than 3 days a week would probably not result in serious dependency so I have NEVER exceeded using 3 days a week for the past year which has made things pretty good.

HOWEVER...being naive about tolerance to opioids and being someone who tends to be all or nothing and seriously binge on substances when I DO use them...then abstain for as long as necessary afterwards...my Kratom tolerance has become MONSTROUS and I have now experienced some usually fairly mild WDs though on Monday there was a period before I made it to the gym where it was pretty unpleasant.

I am almost afraid to say how much I've consumed in a day...but I find that my ideal dose is about 14 grams...usually 12 is pretty damn good but the extra 2 gets me right where I want to be.

But since I like to dose 3 times a day...well...you do the math.

This past weekend I binged more heavily than I ever have and between Saturday and Sunday I consumed over 2 1/2 ounces.

So on Monday there was a period where I felt pretty weak, tired and kind of disoriented and drove straight to my gym and got on my elliptical for an hour as hard as I could and that killed off those WDs.

Since then, I've had a mildly runny nose but nothing more which is gone by now and Sunday was the last day I dosed it being Thursday now and I'm not going to redose this weekend...I plan on not redosing till the following weekend.


What I realized is that no matter how few days you use IF you use large enough amounts withdrawals can still happen.


So what I have decided is this:


1) I am NEVER going to allow myself to become a daily user because it is too important to me not to let it happen

2) If I ever start to get any seriously troubling withdrawals that make me believe true dependency might be looming I'll either quit or more likely just take a really long break.


3) That 3 days a week of usage is now too much with my tolerance, and so is 2 days in a row...so I will reduce my usage to either one day a week or 2 days which are spread out by a few in between.

4) If 2 becomes too much I will reduce my usage to one day a week.


5) And if I am planning on dosing twice in a week...and I find that I'm experiencing any WD....I'll tough it out and NOT redose until I am 100% sure I am not feeling any signs of WD anymore.

Finally:

6) If at any point I am really worried about dependency I'll either quit or take a long break.


So far, spreading out my usage has been no issue: there are days I want to use but if it is more than 3 days a week I simply won't do it.

BUT...using LESS on days I AM using is something extremely difficult for me.

I seem to have a binge mode and a complete non-use mode.


I KNOW that i can reduce my DAYS of usage per week or even per month as much as I want....but getting my tolerance down or lowering my massive intake on days I use it different.

If I'd known ahead of time that it was important NOT ONLY to limit days of use per week BUT ALSO HOW MUCH you use each day I'd have tried harder but I was unaware of that.


So another user and I frequently email and he is telling me he thinks I am going to become a daily user if I keep using Kratom because he thinks it won't be possible for me to reduce my usage to one or 2 days a week from 3 (I already have reduced to 2 a week but it seems them being in a row is too much still).......

He also seems to think that even if I try to space out my doses as much as I want...that sooner or later I'll be dependent.

I think he's wrong, because I care too much about not ruining my life and frankly I can't see one day of use a week...no matter HOW much you take that one day....ever becoming a "life ruining affair" that will result in daily dependency.


I'm already getting lower on my Kratom and so a long break is going to happen relatively soon and some would say it should happen now.

Most people I've told seem perplexed by how much Kratom I can consume in a day....but 3---12--14 ounce doses to stay high all day is kind of the norm for me on the days I use.

So what I would like to hear is opinions...ESPECIALLY FROM PLASTICITY...on how to avoid allowing Kratom to take over my life and become a daily thing.


And I also want to hear whether or not people believe that no matter how much I try to reduce my usage to only 1 or 2 days a week...EVEN THOUGH I'm USUALLY GOOD AT DOING THAT...that it won't matter in the long run and I'll somehow become totally dependent on it.

I personally feel that even with my massive intake it would be WORSE to be a person who consumes a moderate amount of Kratom every day or every other day than a MASSIVE amount one or two days a week in terms of actual dependence.


Chipping w/ Kratom and being able to keep it in my life WITHOUT becoming a daily user or being crippled by WDs is ESSENTIAL to me.

I am pretty confident I can do it...and yet being told by others that no matter how confident i am that I am WRONG and will eventually be a slave to daily use.

I think I can show that by spacing out my binges, and taking very long breaks if need be, that even with my massive tolerance I can avoid having to deal with anything beyond the occassional day or two of mild WDs I have to tough out.

 

[《Plasticity》]

When I gave you my recommendation of a plan that shouldn't cause problems I was quite clear about it being 2, sometimes 3 days a week with at least 2 days in between the majority of the time. You also weren't going on these insane binges either so I thought reasonable dosing was kind of a given. In addition you failed to take breaks when tolerance started to rise and instead continued to up the dosage. You're not on a great path myco, you seem to have poor self control when it comes to drugs and the fact that you are self medicating mental illness makes your situation a bit trickier. Nobody can tell you whether or not you're strong enough to truly stick to a regimine, that's something you have to be honest with yourself about. Do you think that you can reduce your use to 1 or 2 days a week and be strict about that? Do you have the willpower to go without taking kratom for several weeks or do you feel like that would be impossible?

If there's any doubt then perhaps it would be best to give up kratom... however these are decisions that need to be made for yourself. Nobody can tell you whether or not it's possible for you to use kratom responsibility. If your plan is to keep taking kratom then I'm going to give you my recommendation on what you should do. The fact that you are already experiencing withdrawal means that you must take a sufficient break before taking any more, I recommend at least two weeks. Should you continue what you're doing you will find that dependence will set in with with fewer doses and your days off will continue to get worse as far as WD symptoms go. After a 2 week break try a schedule of using 2 days per week with 3-4 days between each use. Most importantly remember to take breaks when tolerance is getting high, do not continue raising the dose. The higher you raise tolerance the easier it will be to redevelop that tolerance when using kratom after your breaks.

With this schedule you will have virtually no chance of physical dependency and it should allow a little room for the occasional mistake. This is a good chance to test of your willpower myco, if you find that you simply can't follow a strict regimine then it would be in your best interest if you just leave kratom alone. It is 100% possible to successfully chip on kratom, however it is also 100% possible to become a bit careless and slowly spiral into addiction... use your best judgment. I'm gonna go a bit deeper here because although I don't know you IRL, we relate on a lot of levels. Although I am only mentioning issues you've already said on the boards if you feel like there's anything discussed that you don't feel comfortable with let me know and I will edit my post. Anyways... you're severe underlying depression and anxiety is clearly not being dealt with properly. That is with lifestyle changes and not using drugs as temporary bandages to problems that need solving. It's important to realize that anxiety and depression doesn't just come from nowhere.

I know you say you have been to therapy with no help but have you ever actually worked with this therapist to apply things learned into actual life? Or are you just showing up and feeling like you're not getting anywhere? If you are not making progress with one therapist try another. Perhaps even consider hiring a life coach or personal trainer. At the least do your best to find out why you are depressed and anxious and work on fixing it. I personally was most depressed and anxious when I was unemployed, had no money to live on my own, had no girlfriend, and was doing way too much drugs. Drugs are not a "fix" for unhappiness, you've gotta put in the work needed to be at a place in life you're satisfied with. Ask yourself if you have a nice career? A home? A car? A significant other? Can you actually say you're happy where you are? If the answer is no then you need to break the cycle and initiate change. It's fucking hard when you're depressed and anxious, trust me I get it. However know that it can (and needs to) be done if you want to live a happy life.

As a fellow anxiety suffer who has been able to drastically improve my anxiety through lifestyle changes the best advice I can give you is to stop looking for drugs as a solution and work on beating your anxiety and depression... use the drugs as a treat for being "good". Best place to start is your health. Try an all natural food diet for a few weeks, you'll feel great. Remove procssed foods from you diet. Also, get your vitamin levels checked for any deficiencies. According to Dr. Rhonda Patrick vitamin D deficiency has been linked to depression and compulsive behavior... many don't get enough vitamin D. I reccomend 5,000iu per day. Working out is very important as well. Try putting more effort into your martial arts, get out of the house more and meet new friends, if you're unemployed find a job, try and meet a girl (or man if that's your thing). You might also want to look into cognitive enhancing supplements like nootropics for clearer thinking. When you become truly happy these urges to binge hard will be go away. You're a good man myco, however it's evident through our conversations that your severe anxiety and depression are fueling your drug use. Trust me I've been there and done that. Good luck

 

[Mycophile]

^^^^

Ok, I had a really long post written which I accidentally deleted and I'm PISSED about that but I'm going to try again.

This is probably going to be long but I'd REALLY appreciate a detailed response when you get the chance, it means a lot to me.

I am going to bold the questions and statements that I think are important and number my individual questions:


First, when you said "you seem to have poor self control when it comes to drugs" that's only PARTIALLY true and also partially false.

When it comes to binging I often go too far and in that sense I may have poor self control but I am also very good at abstaining for long periods of time.


My M.O. with substances has always been to binge and then abstain for a long time, a kind of "all or nothing" type user.

Instead of using substances every day, usually in the past whether it's booze or weed or whatever I go absolutely crazy for short periods of time and then COMPLETELY abstain for excessively long periods too.

When I was trying to abstain from weed at one point I went from smoking every single day for years to taking a 988 day break.



Ok...so let me try this again:



I am absolutely capable of using Kratom only 1 or 2 days a week and/or taking a long break.

In fact, in the past year and a half since I first started using Kratom I only started using it 3 days a week a couple months ago and never ONCE took it more frequently than I said I would.

Usually I have used it one to two days a week so this wouldn't be a big change for me except that I need to stop taking it two days in a row.

So, here's what I am thinking about with the tolerance break:


Last time when I ran out of Kratom in late July I went 17 days without Kratom before I could get more and I felt like it barely lowered my tolerance at all so I don't think a two week break like you suggested is going to be long enough.

My plan is to go AT LEAST one month, but preferably two without Kratom and I know I can do it.


However, here is what I am thinking:


For reasons I don't need to get into, once I run out of my Kratom it will be IMPOSSIBLE for me to order more until Christmas.


Now while I know that I would be capable of abstaining 1--2 months even if I have Kratom in my possession, it will be MUCH easier if I actually don't have any.

So at first I was thinking I was going to take a one month break right now but the thing is, with my current usage if I abstain for a month now and start using again around November then I will probably not even run out until December and I might actually only be without Kratom in my possession for a few weeks.

I would prefer to actually NOT HAVE Kratom for a month or two.

That is why my current plan is to continue using Kratom until I run out but using no more than twice a week always with at least 3 days in between like you said...sometimes even only one day a week.

That way, I will probably run out around early November and will literally HAVE to abstain for two months till I can order more.

Now, I know you might say that's a bad idea because my tolerance might rise more and I've had some mild WDs but please keep in mind that pretty much all the WDs I've had have come after using excessive amounts TWO DAYS IN A ROW.

When I only use one day I get VERY little if any WD at all other than MAYBE just a little lethargy for a day or two.

So if I stop doing that and only dose 2 days a week MAX and always leave at least 3 days between them there's NO WAY I am going to have really bad WDs.

Not only that, but I'll pay attention to my body and if somehow I feel ANY WD I won't redose until it's 100% gone even if it means taking a week or more off.

And even if my tolerance does raise a little bit more, since I will take AT LEAST a one month if not two month break I feel that should still seriously lower my tolerance.


1) Do you think this is an ok idea since I plan on taking such a long break (I actually DO think I'll go 2 months without, and I'll HAVE to if I run out early enough, which will happen if I DON'T take the break right now)??

Or do you think it's a really horrible idea because my tolerance will raise in the meantime?

I am pretty sure this is how I want to do it but if you think it's a REALLY bad idea I'll reconsider.

I just don't want to even have Kratom when I am abstaining cause it's easier that way.


Now you said "remember to take breaks when your tolerance is getting high"


2) What do you consider a high tolerance?

When I first started using Kratom 1 1/2 years ago 5 grams was the lowest dose that ever got me high but 6 was what was really effective and now my favorite dose is a staggering 14 grams.


3) So how high would my tolerance need to get before you'd think I'd need a break?

If my tolerance goes back to 5 or 6 grams at what point should i take a break?

When I need 8 grams? Or 9? Or 10??


I am thinking that probably if I get to the point where I need 10 grams thats the point at which I should take a break but maybe that's just me.


4) Or what if my tolerance doesn't fully go all the way back to 5? What if it goes back to 7 or 8 or whatever?


5) How many grams do you personally need right now to get high??


6) And do you really stick to EXACTLY the same dose all the time without EVER taking a little more when you feel like you'd like to be a little higher?


7) How often do you take tolerance breaks and at what point do you feel your tolerance is high enough that it is necessary?

I remember one other poster had a rule that when his dose exceeded 1.5 times his baseline (like if he started at 5 grams then when he exceeds 7 1/2 grams per dose he takes a break.)


8) If you NEVER take more than a specific dose do you feel that your tolerance ALWAYS stays the same? Or does everyone's tolerance at some point rise even if they stick to the same dose?

I mean I don't see how anyone could NEVER have a rise in tolerance right??


And finally, while I have you here:

9) I remember you said you used to cycle strains to avoid a rise in tolerance. Could you explain how you did that?

Because I've been using many different strains lately but I usually mix 2 or 3 at once and I haven't felt that it helps me keep my tolerance lower


As far as your comments about thinking that I self medicate for my anxiety and depression with Kratom, I honestly have to say that I don't really think I do.

Actually my issues are better under control than usual these days: I have access to Klonopin again but instead of taking it every day like I used to I only take it when I absolutely NEED to and try to stick to the lowest dose possible and always abstain from it a few days a week.

The Lexapro I take works better than the prozac I used to (even though I know you don't believe SSRIs work).

I see a regular therapist and also go to group therapy, both of which help.

I have a new job which could set the foundation for a future career, and I do martial arts several days a week and go to the gym a lot and eat very clean.


So overall I don't think I self medicate with Kratom, I just REALLY like the high it gives me and enjoy using it cause of the way it feels.

I can't say that I NEVER self medicate with it or that maybe I might not subconsciously be doing so, but mostly I just use it cause I like the high.


I KNOW for fact that I can keep my usage to 1 or 2 days a week and take as long a break as is necessary.


Sorry for such a long post, but I know you don't accept PMs anymore and you just have so much knowledge about Kratom that I feel I need to ask you questions when I get the chance.

I'll try to be patient and wait for your response when you get the chance.

Thanks for taking the time to answer this stuff.

 

[sekio]

What's stopping you from just ... not ordering more kratom? Or stopping use entirely for that matter? If you're just using it because you like it, and not to medicate, there's nothing stopping you. Nobody is holding a pistol to your head and saying, eat this kratom! At the usage level you're at you're not going to have too much trouble going cold turkey.

Your barrage of questions about tolerance can be summed up by this. There is no hard and fast rule for what a high tolerance is and what isn't. But, objectively speaking, your doses are now 250% of what they started with, so it is painfully obvious you have a tolerance devloped.

How high does your tolerance need to be before you need to take a break? Again, there is no carved-in-stone Kratom Bible. It's a question only you can answer and nobody else. You have to be the judge of it. Do you find it problematic taking so much? Do you find it costs more to use kratom as a recreational activity? Are you noticing any side effects from continued usage? Realistically speaking, if you found it tolerable and affordable to eat 200 grams a day, and your body tolerated it well, would you see anything wrong with it? The other half is managing dependency... are there times where you find yourself wanting to be on kratom, or to redose? Do you use it in more settings and with greater frequency than when you started? Do you use it as a habitual act, or are you still willfully makiing the decision to consume it?

I think comparing your dosages to other people's is not going to do you favors. Everyone really is different, especially when it comes to drugs and how they behave. But the cold hard truth is kratom is just like every other opioid, it develops tolerance, and even if you take the exact same dose all the time, you will simply notice it just gets less and less effective. You can't avoid it, only delay it to an extent.

The more freqently you take tolerance breaks, the shorter your binges are, and the lower the dose you take, the better off you are going to be in the long run. Opioid tolerance develops in proportion to the frequency of use and the intensity of administration. That is to say, taking big doses spaced closer together will make tolerance devlop faster, and taking smaller doses with as much time in between them will slow it.

Once opioid tolerance has developed, there is no hard and fast guidline for how long it will persist. (Noticing a pattern here?) It is generally assumed that the worse your tolerance gets, the longer it will take to reset; when your tolerance decreases it will never again reach the baseline; and once you have developed a certain level of tolerance it becomes much easier for your body to fall back into old habits and regain that tolerance. You will not find an opioid addict who has been on long-term detox in prison getting buzzed of Vicodins for very long once he is released, ther is a good chance he or she will regain a year's worth of tolerance in a few days of usage.

However, and this is the big disclaimer, everyone is different. There are some anomalous individuals who seem to have effectively permanent opioid tolerance, just as there are people who can seemingly maintain on drugs like tramadol for years.

As for the difference between strains, and the utility of cycling between strains: just from my dabbling, most strains of kratom are fairly similar in terms of alkaloid profile: the minor alkaloids don't have a strong tolerance preventative effect like some speculate. And the stems and veins... they contain essentially the same alkaloids and phytochemicals as the leaf. Oops.

I sense there's an element of seeking out a justification for your kratom use with all this comparison and questioning, and that you already suspect it's time for a break. Here's a little thought experiment for you, if your tolerance has increased this much in your few months of using kratom, where do you suppose you will be another 3 months down the line? 6 months? How about a year, will you still be taking kratom on a regular basis then? What do you think your dosage would be, given past behaviour?

To be honest, to me the whole first half of your post reads like you're trying to convince yourself, more than anyone. I recall that when you first got into using kratom (and even phenibut) you were quite hesitant to develop tolerance of any sort. I think you've seen the danger signs and it would be in your best interest to close the kratom chapter on your research. At least for the near future. Throw your remaining kratom in a compost heap and say bye bye.

10) And with the vendor you recommended to me

Do we all know what the rules about vendors are on Bluelight? I hope we all know what the rules about discussing vendors on Bluelight are. Now I'm gonna have to infract.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Myco I'm an insanely busy person, I just don't have time to answer all your questionaires. The advice given in my first post is honestly the best I can possibly give, advice from personal experience. Whether you heed it or not it doesn't directly affect my life. You asked for my advice because you managed to induce withdrawal using 2-3 days a week. Every time you use kratom it turns into a binge. If you're looking for me to provide anything but what I think of your situation you're going to be dissapointed. I stand by everything I've said, every piece of advice I have has already been given over time. Giving advice to you has become a fruitless labor. You ask for advice, I provide it, you don't follow it, then come back with more questions because you failed to heed the original advice given.

You wouldn't be in this situation if you just took those vital tolerance breaks I've been telling you to take from the start of talking to you. Instead you let your tolerance continue to rise multiple times higher than it was, so when you say you have no problems taking breaks from drugs it doesn't hold much ground. Especially when you can't even go a day without coffee and couldn't even abstain from alcohol for a mere few weeks when you had gastritis. Instead you looked to justify your drinking and binge use with a poor reason for doing so. You've also had your benzo script revoked for abusing them, taking more than you what you were prescribed regularly to curtail anxiety arising from heavy cannabis use... while also adding alcohol to the mix pretty frequently. This is just the stuff coming off the top of my head. Your not being honest with yourself at all.

You may only be using kratom 2-3 days a week (irresponsibly in binge amounts), but you're pretty much on drugs just about every day of the week . I'm not casting any judgement, however we have talked for over a year and it's clear that you're drug use is, at the least, largely a result of your underlying anxiety and depression issues. Issues you keep trying to throw drugs at. This is extremely important when asking whether or not you have a chance to use a drug without getting addicted. Your odds of getting physically addicted go up exponentially when you are self-medicating with drugs rather than addressing issues that need solving in your life. You're also a polydrug user with a history of physical dependency to other substances.

I'll just say that if you can't take kratom without ending up in a binge then quitting may be the best choice, because that compulsion will only get stronger if you don't get a grip on things. With the FDA's war on kratom and the popularity increase now is not the time to get dependent... I would be surprised if it doesn't get banned within the next year or two tbh. Other peoples tolerance means nothing, if 5 grams used to get me high then by all means if I start using more than double what I used to my tolerance has begun to rise too high. You can find reports of people using an ounce, that doesn't mean that I'm fine to let my tolerance to rise from 5g to 28 grams. Be honest with yourself, take a break now, and try again only heeding the advice of using 1-2 days a week at the most and dose once or twice instead of all day binges. Listen to your body and begin a break when you're taking way more than you used to. I have nothing else to add and too little time to answer question after question. Again, good luck .

Do we all know what the rules about vendors are on Bluelight? I hope we all know what the rules about discussing vendors on Bluelight are. Now I'm gonna have to infract.

Check your PM's.

 

[pbuilder]

You are right, nothing is stopping me from not ordering more Kratom and if I don’t want to I wont. At least for now, I won’t be ordering anymore till Christmas and I’ll be out soon which will help me with the 2 month break I am going to take.



I'm not going to just completely quit Kratom right now, because I'm VERY confident that I'll be able to do it IF/when I need to, but I think one time a week until I run out in about 5 weeks followed by a 2 month break as planned will be ok.

Of course I know many other people would say such a thing and become Kratom addicts, but I'm not trying to convince anyone else so I'm ok with that.

As far as the "costs" of Kratom for me, on both a physical and emotional level, there really honestly aren't that many:

The ACTUAL monetary price is not a concern right now, and no, if "it was tolerable and afforadable to eat 200 grams a day" and my body dealt with it well I wouldn't see an issue with it."

In fact, my body DOES tolerate it much better than most as I never get almost any nausea.

Now I HAVE had SOME VERY minor WD symptoms, but most of them are after dosing two days in a row which is something I am not going to do anymore.

Case in point: I dosed yesterday and did NOT dose today even though I kind of wanted to.

There are times I want to be on Kratom or redose, some of them I might give in and some of them I might not, because how could ANYONE who really likes the effects of a drug not SOMETIMES want it when redosing isn't a good idea??

But by and large, I HAVE found myself able to resist using Kratom more days per week than I think is a good idea, it's not taking more IN A SINGLE DAY that I HAVE decided to use that is harder for me.

When I said I'd never take Kratom more than 3 days per week I NEVER once broke the rule, and before that when I said I'd stick to twice a week I NEVER broke that rule either until I decided definitively that I thought 3 would be ok.


BUT...when I HAVE chosen to have a "Kratom day" that is when I tend to go to town and have more trouble putting it down until I actually go to sleep that night...but that being said, I kind of never actually put any limit on the amount I could consume in a single day to begin with and made it ENTIRELY about HOW MANY DAYS PER WEEK I dosed rather than how many grams per day.

I am really not sure what it is, but I'm an unusual user in this way that my binges with drugs kind of have a "natural" course of their own and a beginning and end rather than going on for days.

It's the same with Kratom: when it's a "kratom day" I go nuts eat lots and have trouble stopping until I actually pass out that night, but once I wake up the next morning I have VERY little trouble just saying "no" even if I want to, like today.

But the WD symptoms I've experienced, albeit VERY minor, have convinced me I need to be careful hence why I am now going back to using only one day per week most of the time or IF I use a MAX of two days per week separate them by 3 days.

I DON'T "use Kratom as a habitual act" but always make a willful decision to use it" as you said.

I decide on specific days to use and days not to use and don't USUALLY mess up on that.

But yes, i use in some settings I would not have in the past as I have found myself able to function well in other places like the gym, for example, on Kratom.



As to this comment you made "I recall when you first got into Kratom (and even Phenibut) you were quite hesitant to develop a tolerance of any sort. I think you've seen the danger signs and it would be in your best interest to close the Kratom chapter on your research".....I appreciate your concern, but again, I dont' see the need to COMPLETELY quit Kratom right now, and think that finishing what I have by taking it NO MORE THAN ONE DAY A WEEK and taking a solid two month break after that should be sufficient.

That would HAVE to have SOME impact on my tolerance.

I just think Kratom is not only a fun substance but a USEFUL one, especially for someone who has anxiety it can work quite well.

All of the things you are saying about how much of my tolerance will reset though are of interest, and I guess I just have no way of knowing what my tolerance would be after a 2 month break.


As far as your saying "I sense there's an element seeking justification for your Kratom use with all this comparison and questioning and you sense it's time for a break": While I would agree that there is plenty of "justification going on with what I am saying, at the same time, WHO do I need to "justify" it to?? Of course we know that I have no MORAL qualms about it, and that I have stated that I haven't felt it effect my life negatively so long as I ONLY use it once a week on the weekends.

Really, much more than that the main reason I am posing all these questions to Plasticity in general is because I want to better learn how to be able to continue using Kratom with the fewest possible physical and emotional repercussions (or HR in other words I guess)

Since most of my drug use in the past has NOT involved drugs as addictive as Kratom and more things like weed, booze (yes I know it's addictive but I've never felt any WD), Shrooms, Dexedrine, etc I honestly never really prepared for the tolerance issues properly or saw them coming.

I saw the issue with DEPENDENCE, in terms of not using more than a certain number of days per week but oddly did NOT consider the issues caused by consuming too many grams in a single DAY or that that might leave me with some lingering after effects.


So in fact, I was not "hesitant to develop any tolerance" in the way you suggest.

It might seem strange to you, but I TOTALLY disconnected any connections between days per week I used (something I was VERY strict on) and amounts per day I used (something I was VERY Lax on).

As far as Phenibut...I haven't even used that stuff in almost a month and still have never used in more than once in a 6 day period and don't really like it very much.


But the final point you make about "where do I see myself with my tolerance 3 months down the road or 6"....yes, that is very important to consider, and honestly, the only way I'll know is to take the 2 month break I have already decided I am going to take.

As mentioned, it isn't going to take me long to finish the Kratom I have right now but I'm not the sort to throw it out either and there's just NOT going to be any serious problem in my life caused by my using it one day a week for the next 4--6 weeks till it runs out so long as I really DO follow up with a 2 month break.

I cannot answer what my dosage would be in a year IF I continue using it because I don't know how well the 2 month tolerance break would work or whether or not I MIGHT be able to learn to moderate with a certain number of grams per day but I can GUARANTEE I will NEVER become a daily user.

Those lines are said by a lot of people, and many of them may be fooling themselves, but I really don't care because these words aren't being spoken for them.

I just know myself VERY well and know that I won't let it happen.

There are lots of other things in my life I enjoy as much or more than Kratom and I see myself being capable of taking long breaks or cutting myself off completely if necessary.

I know that Marijuanna is not addictive like Kratom, but do you know of anyone else who went from using weed almost every day for years to taking a 988 day break JUST to prove to themselves they could do it without ANY other real reason???

From my patterns in the past with other substances like weed, booze, etc I know that likely what will happen with Kratom throughout the years if I don't COMPLETELY cut it out of my life is that there will be binge periods and periods of complete abstainaince.

I'll probably use too much for a while, then completely cut myself off for several months at a time.

I could EASILY see myself eventually taking a whole year off from it to come back again, seeing as I did that with weed and once took a 3 month break from alcohol as well.

As mentioned, my M.O. with substances seems to be to binge and abstain, binge and abstain.

BUT...I DO believe that if it ever TRULY starts to become a problem that I can and would quit Kratom completely.

Many have said it, but all that matters is what I myself believe to be true, cause if I use, or don't use, the only one benefitting, or losing out in anyway, is in the end, myself.


But PLEASE take it easy on Plasticity for what I said, he's been SO helpful with this and he's the person I made the thread for in the first place.

Yo, you are obsessed with Kratom, and you keep repeating yourself over and over again. You keeping repeating that you can quit at anytime, and can obstain for a month, over and over and over again. Who are you tryna convince, us, or yourself. The length of your posts are just insane considering they basically just repeat the same stuff over and over. Whether or not you are physically addicted, I can say one thing for sure, you are extremely mentally addicted to Kratom, infatuated with it, it seems like it occupys your mind all day.

No one plans to get physically addicted but opiates and drugs with opiate effects are very insidious and cause us to literally lie to ourself about a worsening addiction, rationalizing ever increasing dosages, and eventually, an extra day a week. Then 2 extra days, and then you wake up one day and realize you rationalized yourself into a physical addiction.

My advice for now, take a month long break and avoid talking about Kratom or reading threads about Kratom for a while as well.

Cannabis is nothing like Kratom, even mentally it's not very addictive, compared to opiates and Kratom which are the most addictive class of drugs, period. Because you can easily quit weed, doesn't reflect that you could easily quit Kratom. You keeping saying I COULD EASILY QUIT, over and over, but words don't mean a thing, and every addict ever also said they could easily quit there drug of choice, but "just not today".

 

[AllorNothing]

Hey man I know this thread is a bit old but I feel for you. I'm not gonna go over tapering especially because I know little about Kratom. But I'm a drug addict through and through so I can relate to everything you're dealing with.
I just want to ask: is the little high you get worth all the worry and trouble? I'm reading your post and relating to all the crazy-Ness you're putting yourself through. I'm not clean and I'm not claiming to be. But maybe you should just take a break from the Kratom for a bit. I get withdrawals suck ass (I'm an opiate addict) but it's simple: just buckle down and do it. Now simple and easy are two seperate things. I get how hard it can be. But slow down a little and realize it's just not so complicated.
I see a lot of rationalizing and justifying your use. Which is something I constantly do as an addict. NO JUDGEMENT is coming from me. I am in no place to do so and I don't even want to. Thats just what I'm noticing as I'm reading your posts. Maybe you're all ready an addict man. And if that's the case maybe you should take a small break to reset before you completely lose control. Again no judgement is coming from me. Just trying to help you see things from another perspective.
I hope everything works out for you man, this shit is a daily struggle.

 

[88dood88]

I agree with the last two posters here, sounds like you are just trying to convince yourself you aren't addicted to kratom. Not that I'm judging, I'm still hooked on it and I've done the same thing, and now I realize I can't use this stuff responsibly no matter how much I think I can. Gonna just have to stop completely for me. You have these long posts about scheduling your kratom use and why you aren't addicted - that should be a red flag right there.

 

[Mycophile]

Myco I'm an insanely busy person, I just don't have time to answer all your questionaires. The advice given in my first post is honestly the best I can possibly give, advice from personal experience. Whether you heed it or not it doesn't directly affect my life. You asked for my advice because you managed to induce withdrawal using 2-3 days a week. Every time you use kratom it turns into a binge. If you're looking for me to provide anything but what I think of your situation you're going to be dissapointed. I stand by everything I've said, every piece of advice I have has already been given over time. Giving advice to you has become a fruitless labor. You ask for advice, I provide it, you don't follow it, then come back with more questions because you failed to heed the original advice given.

You wouldn't be in this situation if you just took those vital tolerance breaks I've been telling you to take from the start of talking to you. Instead you let your tolerance continue to rise multiple times higher than it was, so when you say you have no problems taking breaks from drugs it doesn't hold much ground. Especially when you can't even go a day without coffee and couldn't even abstain from alcohol for a mere few weeks when you had gastritis. Instead you looked to justify your drinking and binge use with a poor reason for doing so. You've also had your benzo script revoked for abusing them, taking more than you what you were prescribed regularly to curtail anxiety arising from heavy cannabis use... while also adding alcohol to the mix pretty frequently. This is just the stuff coming off the top of my head. Your not being honest with yourself at all.

You may only be using kratom 2-3 days a week (irresponsibly in binge amounts), but you're pretty much on drugs just about every day of the week . I'm not casting any judgement, however we have talked for over a year and it's clear that you're drug use is, at the least, largely a result of your underlying anxiety and depression issues. Issues you keep trying to throw drugs at. This is extremely important when asking whether or not you have a chance to use a drug without getting addicted. Your odds of getting physically addicted go up exponentially when you are self-medicating with drugs rather than addressing issues that need solving in your life. You're also a polydrug user with a history of physical dependency to other substances.

I'll just say that if you can't take kratom without ending up in a binge then quitting may be the best choice, because that compulsion will only get stronger if you don't get a grip on things. With the FDA's war on kratom and the popularity increase now is not the time to get dependent... I would be surprised if it doesn't get banned within the next year or two tbh. Other peoples tolerance means nothing, if 5 grams used to get me high then by all means if I start using more than double what I used to my tolerance has begun to rise too high. You can find reports of people using an ounce, that doesn't mean that I'm fine to let my tolerance to rise from 5g to 28 grams. Be honest with yourself, take a break now, and try again only heeding the advice of using 1-2 days a week at the most and dose once or twice instead of all day binges. Listen to your body and begin a break when you're taking way more than you used to. I have nothing else to add and too little time to answer question after question. Again, good luck .


Check your PM's.

I understand you are tired of this so I won't ask more questions from you for now but it ISN'T true that "giving me advice has been a fruitless labor" I still followed your rule of never dosing Kratom more than 2--3 days a week and it is the main reason why I have still only had the most minor of withdrawals and have managed to enjoy myself with the drug without it causing great problems for my life, I only got a little concerned cause I over did it and got a few.

I don't remember you telling me to taper when my tolerance got high, or what you personally consider a high tolerance to be (info I'd still like your opinion on, but I guess you don't feel like giving that now) but I am sure you probably told me and I just forgot.

While you are right that I'm "pretty much on drugs most days of the week"...those drugs are USUALLY just caffeine and Lexapro...that latter of which doesn't even have a ute mind altering effects.

I only use Klonopin about 3 days a week...and most of the other days I'm still on nothing other than caffeine, which MOST people wrongly don't consider a drug, but still, by that phrase you make it sound a bit worse than it is, as as compared to about 80% of the people on this board I would barely even be considered a drug user (no offense to anyone else here...I just REALLY don't use a lot of shit NOW even though I have used stuff in the past and sporadically now).

And while you are correct about some of the things you are saying about my past drug usage, these are things I still usually do at CERTAIN times, not all the time.

Other than that though you are correct about MOST of what you are saying and I appreciate the honesty.

After a few days of rest from Kratom I'm not CURRENTLY as worried about this as I was before, but that will probably start up again soon lol.


I guess I will just have to figure this out on my own, or at least, without your help most of the time and occassionally get some info on what other posters think.

I've still decided to wait till I run out to take my break, which IMO should be fine, then take it from there with a long two month break and at the point at which I try it again, try to figure out the tolerance thing all over again.

I still believe I can do a better job of managing my tolerance than I have so far.

I'll be fine though, as one or two days a week of Kratom use max isn't killing anyone or ruining anyone's life.

Already your suggestion of NOT using two days in a row is helping.

And yes, I am sure that my underlying anxiety and depression plays a bigger role than I am aware of.

Sorry for taking up so much of your time.

I appreciate your time and hope MAYBE you may be open to the occassional question in the future, but I'll try not to send you another barrage if I do.

I'll be fine.

Peace

 

[Mycophile]

Yo, you are obsessed with Kratom, and you keep repeating yourself over and over again. You keeping repeating that you can quit at anytime, and can obstain for a month, over and over and over again. Who are you tryna convince, us, or yourself. The length of your posts are just insane considering they basically just repeat the same stuff over and over. Whether or not you are physically addicted, I can say one thing for sure, you are extremely mentally addicted to Kratom, infatuated with it, it seems like it occupys your mind all day.

No one plans to get physically addicted but opiates and drugs with opiate effects are very insidious and cause us to literally lie to ourself about a worsening addiction, rationalizing ever increasing dosages, and eventually, an extra day a week. Then 2 extra days, and then you wake up one day and realize you rationalized yourself into a physical addiction.

My advice for now, take a month long break and avoid talking about Kratom or reading threads about Kratom for a while as well.

Cannabis is nothing like Kratom, even mentally it's not very addictive, compared to opiates and Kratom which are the most addictive class of drugs, period. Because you can easily quit weed, doesn't reflect that you could easily quit Kratom. You keeping saying I COULD EASILY QUIT, over and over, but words don't mean a thing, and every addict ever also said they could easily quit there drug of choice, but "just not today".

I have a very obsessive personality it's true, as I also probably have OCD and it's not just with drugs.

Most of what you say makes a lot of sense.

I shouldn't need to try to convince anyone else, but because I've never been down this road before i am probably trying to convince MYSELF that my choices will work...something that remains to be seen but after a few days rest I'm at least MOMENTARILY a bit more confident I can do it.

I've already decided on what my CURRENT course of action will be, and we'll see what happens.

Peace

 

[Mycophile]

Hey man I know this thread is a bit old but I feel for you. I'm not gonna go over tapering especially because I know little about Kratom. But I'm a drug addict through and through so I can relate to everything you're dealing with.
I just want to ask: is the little high you get worth all the worry and trouble? I'm reading your post and relating to all the crazy-Ness you're putting yourself through. I'm not clean and I'm not claiming to be. But maybe you should just take a break from the Kratom for a bit. I get withdrawals suck ass (I'm an opiate addict) but it's simple: just buckle down and do it. Now simple and easy are two seperate things. I get how hard it can be. But slow down a little and realize it's just not so complicated.
I see a lot of rationalizing and justifying your use. Which is something I constantly do as an addict. NO JUDGEMENT is coming from me. I am in no place to do so and I don't even want to. Thats just what I'm noticing as I'm reading your posts. Maybe you're all ready an addict man. And if that's the case maybe you should take a small break to reset before you completely lose control. Again no judgement is coming from me. Just trying to help you see things from another perspective.
I hope everything works out for you man, this shit is a daily struggle.

Thanks man.

I wouldn't have to go through any WD if I stop now.

I'll be stopping for a long break soon, and it could be a mistake to wait a month but I'm gonna try it and see what happens.

I think I'll be fine though.

But I Do have an addictive personality, even if I don't use as many hard drugs as most people on this forum.

I guess at the moment I feel it's worth some of the crazy-thoughts cause all of these came the day after using (I only use once a week now) and I was wound up on little sleep but most of the week I don't have them, and then my Generalized Anxiety Disorder just has crazy thoughts about other non drug related things.

Whether it's drugs or something else, i'll still have the crazy thoughts, and as Plasticity pointed out, it may be some self medication, cause i don't get those crazy thoughts when I am on Kratom, only afterwards.

But at least after a few days rest, I am pretty confident this will work out ok after a LONG break from Kratom.

If in a few months or a year or however long quitting completely ends up being the better idea I'll probably do that but as you know with us saying FOREVER is quite difficult.

We'll see but thanks.

 

[Mycophile]

I agree with the last two posters here, sounds like you are just trying to convince yourself you aren't addicted to kratom. Not that I'm judging, I'm still hooked on it and I've done the same thing, and now I realize I can't use this stuff responsibly no matter how much I think I can. Gonna just have to stop completely for me. You have these long posts about scheduling your kratom use and why you aren't addicted - that should be a red flag right there.

I am MENTALLY addicted for sure.

What I choose to do about it, we'll just see.

I've also been mentally addicted to plenty of other things, drugs and things that aren't drugs.

It's just a cycle what my mind is consumed with.

 

[88dood88]

I am MENTALLY addicted for sure.

What I choose to do about it, we'll just see.

I've also been mentally addicted to plenty of other things, drugs and things that aren't drugs.

It's just a cycle what my mind is consumed with.

Hey I understand completely, I was at a point like that too and am only concerned for you based on my own problems with being addicted to kratom. If you are mentally addicted then you know its going to be hard to set a schedule that you will never break, and eventually the physical addiction kicks in. Are you using plain leaf kratom or enhanced/extract products? Cause if its the latter I really feel for you, I've been tapering down myself and even taking one large nightly dose (while slowly dropping it half a gram every few days) I feel like shit after noon rolls around, my body just hurts all over. Not looking forward to hopping off after how stupidly I was abusing, good thing I'm off the liquid tinctures though.

Just worried about you man, don't want you to end up in the spot I'm in. I gotta quit cause its been dominating my life for 2 years and I almost hit rock bottom not too recently, hopped back on it and now I'm at the point where I'm just fucking fed up with it.