The alleged lack of "euphoria-inducing qualities" in methadone's chemical makeup.

[ChaosControl]

The alleged lack of "euphoria-inducing qualities" in methadone's chemical makeup.

Methadone is my DOC, and I have tried nearly every pharmaceutical opiate. Let's get that out of the way.

Now, I have come across numerous statements on Bluelight where users have stated that methadone simply does not have the chemical makeup that would justifiably produce "euphoria."
What is this something that methadone is missing?
I certainly feel a "state of intense happiness and self-confidence" on methadone. ("Euphoria"; Dictionary.com) So, how can anyone suggest otherwise? It doesn't bother me that people think the stuff is garabage--that's fine. Drug elitism is what it is. I have my own opinions too. But I feel just as much euphoria on methadone as I do on most opiates. Sure insufflated oxycodone's peak supplies a preferable dose of euphoria, but 20min later and that feeling drops well below the amount that would have been provided from methadone for the better half of my day. And it inevitably trumps morphine, codeine, hydro, and many others IMO. No contest.

My question is: what is methadone missing (in terms of affording users "euphoria") that other opiates have?

 

[Erikmen]

I have used methadone for many years in order to come off harder opiates so I speak from my own experience that it was enough for me to feel okay and to feel myself which explains in part why it's so fuc.. hard to come off. Besides the long acting effects, and how strong it is, etc.

I have only felt a little more euphoric when my doses were higher than it should have been. I felt well but when tolerance caughts up you go back and feel satisfied, that would be the word I would best define my feelings about it.

Enough satisfaction to prevent me to go back to other substances and maintain a 'normal' life with my family and kids.
I'd travel, work and play with my kids but if I was off 'done for 16-24 hours I would start to feel very uncomfortable and a bit ill.

I have heard about people choosing methadone because of its long lasting effects. You don't have to redose all the time, it's practical and it makes you feel fine for a long time. Besides, you can opt not to use anything else. However it's a huge problem when and if you want to stop using. Depending on how long you are using and how much you take daily it can be very harsh and withdrawn can last up to 15-30 days.

Most of those who managed to slow down or stop it completely had to go through medical assistance and it may take a long time until you feel good again. It would as if your endorphin factory simply stopped producing whatever you need to be fine, happy or even okay.

 

[ChaosControl]

I have used methadone for many years in order to come off harder opiates so I speak from my own experience that it was enough for me to feel okay and to feel myself which explains in part why it's so fuc.. hard to come off. Besides the long acting effects, and how strong it is, etc.

I have only felt a little more euphoric when my doses were higher than it should have been. I felt well but when tolerance caughts up you go back and feel satisfied, that would be the word I would best define my feelings about it.

Enough satisfaction to prevent me to go back to other substances and maintain a 'normal' life with my family and kids.
I'd travel, work and play with my kids but if I was off 'done for 16-24 hours I would start to feel very uncomfortable and a bit ill.

I have heard about people choosing methadone because of its long lasting effects. You don't have to redose all the time, it's practical and it makes you feel fine for a long time. Besides, you can opt not to use anything else. However it's a huge problem when and if you want to stop using. Depending on how long you are using and how much you take daily it can be very harsh and withdrawn can last up to 15-30 days.

Most of those who managed to slow down or stop it completely had to go through medical assistance and it may take a long time until you feel good again. It would as if your endorphin factory simply stopped producing whatever you need to be fine, happy or even okay.

Certainly, and I agree with you on all of your points. Methadone has helped me tremendously to put down other opiates and focus on my family without the constant fear of entering WD. But for me, the recreational value or euphoria with methadone was not that much less than say, OxyContin, Roxis, or Opana. It just wasn't. I actually found it VERY similar to oral Opana; methadone just lasted much longer. I realize that many people's experiences do not align with my own in this, and that is okay. I am thankful that I enjoy methadone equal (or even more) than other opiates. I'm just not understanding what is so different about it's chemical make-up that is responsible for its alleged "lack of recreational value."

 

[Raki]

As I have stated ad naseum over the years, all moderate to heavy opiates/opioids are subject to the "Morphine Golden Rule." Morphine is gauged as the ultimate in analgesic slash euphoric opiates/opioids. It is a 4 part rule. Methadone fails on 1 out of 4 components and sadly that component is euphoria. Chemically, it needs to have a quatenary carbon atom attached to a tertiary nitrogen atom to produce euphoria and methadone lacks this. Receptor wise, you need strong Mu agonism to obtain euphoria and again, you just wont find it with methadone.

Most people imagine euphoria to be entirely subjective and therefore unquantifiable. That is wrong. Physically there needs to be a presentation of Tail Twitch, i.e. Uour sphincter muscle contracting and loosening rapidly.

If a person feels that methadone is euphpric than by all means, go for it but in real terms it just isnt possible. To cut superfulous argument I will add that subjectively I dosed at 220mgs of methadone daily for years and last used it 8 days ago. It is great for its prescribed purpose, maintaining heavy opiate/opioid addicts. It also offers great sedation but that is it.

 

[Raki]

I will add that yes, phydical withdrawal is long, but only begins after 4 to 6 days after last dosing if on a dose of 70+ mgs (on average) and using it daily for at least 6 months.

 

[ChaosControl]

As I have stated ad naseum over the years, all moderate to heavy opiates/opioids are subject to the "Morphine Golden Rule." Morphine is gauged as the ultimate in analgesic slash euphoric opiates/opioids. It is a 4 part rule. Methadone fails on 1 out of 4 components and sadly that component is euphoria. Chemically, it needs to have a quatenary carbon atom attached to a tertiary nitrogen atom to produce euphoria and methadone lacks this. Receptor wise, you need strong Mu agonism to obtain euphoria and again, you just wont find it with methadone.

Most people imagine euphoria to be entirely subjective and therefore unquantifiable. That is wrong. Physically there needs to be a presentation of Tail Twitch, i.e. Uour sphincter muscle contracting and loosening rapidly.

If a person feels that methadone is euphpric than by all means, go for it but in real terms it just isnt possible. To cut superfulous argument I will add that subjectively I dosed at 220mgs of methadone daily for years and last used it 8 days ago. It is great for its prescribed purpose, maintaining heavy opiate/opioid addicts. It also offers great sedation but that is it.

Although I'm not convinced that I agree with your strict definition of the word "euphoria", thank you, sincerely, for answering my question. That is exactly what I was asking.

Regarding my reluctance to accept that methadone cannot supply euphoria, I do understand your position, that methadone lacks the appropriate chemical makeup that other opiates boast responsible for directly triggering euphoria. But based upon the one definition I accessed with my convenient dictionary.com app (lol), euphoria is "a state of intense happiness and self-confidence." Although this may not necessarily be the consistently recreational feeling often associated with opiates, there are no additional definitions that suggest that "euphoria" is only happiness and self-confidence achieved via a certain method or from a specific trigger in the brain.

I am indisputably afforded intense happiness on methadone. Perhaps this is simply from alleviating a WD or relief from pain? I'm not saying it has to be a direct chemical reaction; one cause and one effect. It could merely be a byproduct of the medicine's side- effects or results. All I know is that gauging my euphoric experiences on a merit of "intense happiness and self-confidence", I can say with quite certainty that methadone provides me euphoria by the bucketloads. Even if you suppose it must be placebo.

All of that aside, you gave me the exact answer I was seeking; in great detail, at that. Appreciate that!

 

[Raki]

Absolutely, most longterm addicts are extremely happy and relieved to not have to hustle each day, to not fear law enforcement, to not have to be sick again and so on. If you feel euphoric on it then you should be happy and not seek validation. G-d knows, if I could be that happy on methadone I would probably give my left nut.

 

[Erikmen]

As I have stated ad naseum over the years, all moderate to heavy opiates/opioids are subject to the "Morphine Golden Rule." Morphine is gauged as the ultimate in analgesic slash euphoric opiates/opioids. It is a 4 part rule. Methadone fails on 1 out of 4 components and sadly that component is euphoria. Chemically, it needs to have a quatenary carbon atom attached to a tertiary nitrogen atom to produce euphoria and methadone lacks this. Receptor wise, you need strong Mu agonism to obtain euphoria and again, you just wont find it with methadone.

Most people imagine euphoria to be entirely subjective and therefore unquantifiable. That is wrong. Physically there needs to be a presentation of Tail Twitch, i.e. Uour sphincter muscle contracting and loosening rapidly.

If a person feels that methadone is euphpric than by all means, go for it but in real terms it just isnt possible. To cut superfulous argument I will add that subjectively I dosed at 220mgs of methadone daily for years and last used it 8 days ago. It is great for its prescribed purpose, maintaining heavy opiate/opioid addicts. It also offers great sedation but that is it.

Nicely put! It totally makes sense to me. I've experienced many opiates and understood your argument perfectly. After all, the whole purpose of methadone is to feel normal therefore have a 'normal' life.

It's important to emphasize how difficult it is to come off of it. It may take months until you are able to jump to zero and as I said before it takes ages until you begin to feel okay again, if ever.

 

[ChaosControl]

Absolutely, most longterm addicts are extremely happy and relieved to not have to hustle each day, to not fear law enforcement, to not have to be sick again and so on. If you feel euphoric on it then you should be happy and not seek validation. G-d knows, if I could be that happy on methadone I would probably give my left nut.

Certainly! I do believe the reasons you stated contribute A LOT to the lure of (and my personal appeal towards) methadone.

Also, don't let me mislead you, my intentions were not to seek out justification or validation for what I knew I was feeling--it's quite the opposite. I believe you! I was merely trying to understand how this chemical operates differently from other opiates, so that I could better understand what's accounting for the vastly different opinions found in user reports and experiences. I don't need to be convinced about my own enthusiasm; when provided the option, I chose methadone over oxyconde every time. But after realizing the contrast between the two drugs, I wanted to find out why I tended toward 'dones. However, I believe the answer now lies in this thread somewhere. Haha I think the positive attributes I associated with methadone far outweighed the baggage I associated with its twisted relatives. Haha

(Oh, and yeah, Erikmen, I have not overlooked or downplayed
*in my personal life* the baggage MY DOC carries, as well. I do appreciate the disclaimer, though. I regard this drug with the heavy seriousness it demands.)

You guys have been very helpful.

 

[Raki]

Erikmen: Yes and no. Physically it isnt difficult to withdraw from methadone. Mentally it is probably one of the most difficult. I literally cannot count ADA Detxoes I have gone through. 10mg drop every 3 days then at 50mg switch to 5mg drop every 3 days and I have always dosed at 220mg for maintenance. When a patient is on a Blocking Dose for at least a few months of daily consumption they end up with an internal resevoir of methadone. With a 36 hour Halflife the physical symptoms will not even begin for 4 to 6 days and when they commence are very weak as compared to morphine and heroin. Mentally though, it is a monster. Addicts lives tend to revolve around daily dosing so that when they no longer dose it plays with their minds and they often have psychosomatic physical complaints. Then the physical symptoms last alot longer than other opiates/opioids so that contributed to the mythology around withdrawal from methadone. Cold Turkey I have come off 220mg 3 times and Blogged on it in 2007 under my old ID (Rachamim) in case anyone wants to see how it goes.

 

[blowpipe]

Chemically, it needs to have a quatenary carbon atom attached to a tertiary nitrogen atom to produce euphoria and methadone lacks this. Receptor wise, you need strong Mu agonism to obtain euphoria and again, you just wont find it with methadone.

Morphine and other opioids don't have a quaternary carbon attached to a tertiary nitrogen. The tert nitrogen is there, but the carbons aren't quaternary; that "spot" on the molecule near the N is fairly similar between methadone and morphine. Also, levomethadone is a full µ-opioid agonist.

 

[rokkinrollaa6]

Sorry if this is off point - but... Methadone and subutex and suboxone for that matter have really never done anything for stabilizing me. when i used to get sick they were wonders - sure, but as far as cravings go, they really have never helped me much, and for some reason these drugs are the worst for constipation for me, and they make it so that when i want something to take the cravings away, it is impossible because of the huge tolerance. i really abhore these drugs. i don't know if it is because my addiction is primarily psychological, but even on a less than "high" amount of say morphine or codeine, just enough for bare psychoactivity, my cravings go away without the need to be high. when i was scripted morphine, hydromorphone, or even stuff like codeine, hydrocodone, even if i don't get high or buzzed, even if i barely feel the drugs, they always do much more to easing cravings. i also have chronic pain and so other drugs even if they did work would stilll leave me in pain, so i haven't really endeavored to get on them again. but for some reason, whatever it is, i would prefer a sub-high dose of morphine continous in pill dosage to subutex, suboxone or methadone. for whatever reason, chemichally these other medicines work better for drug cravings even if i don't get high. the weird thing is that methadone effects me strongly at times, i will nod out on it. but even then i will still continously think about other drugs. i was always "taking days off" when i was on sub or on methadone and preferred barely feeling the other opiates to the maintenance drugs. i don't know why, but that is how it has always been for me. then when you add in the lack of pain killing and the added constipation, there is just little reason for me to want to be on these meds for OST.

i maintained on MS contin fairly well however without even being high. i took them orally and was never high, but they satisfied drug cravings immensely. is there a reason for this for some people? it seems odd that the other drugs do not really help me and maybe i am in a small minority with an ultra-resistant system to traditional OST, but morphine, hydromorphone, codeine even always are better. maybe it is in my head? i am not sure, but even in a clincal setting with the drugs of my prefeence dispensed they seem to work far better, even sans high. to be honest im not even particularly fond of morphine, i would choose hydromorphone or oxymorphone if i could, but morphine simply works to kill cravings, and so codeine works as well.

 

[ChaosControl]

Sorry if this is off point - but... Methadone and subutex and suboxone for that matter have really never done anything for stabilizing me. when i used to get sick they were wonders - sure, but as far as cravings go, they really have never helped me much, and for some reason these drugs are the worst for constipation for me, and they make it so that when i want something to take the cravings away, it is impossible because of the huge tolerance. i really abhore these drugs. i don't know if it is because my addiction is primarily psychological, but even on a less than "high" amount of say morphine or codeine, just enough for bare psychoactivity, my cravings go away without the need to be high. when i was scripted morphine, hydromorphone, or even stuff like codeine, hydrocodone, even if i don't get high or buzzed, even if i barely feel the drugs, they always do much more to easing cravings. i also have chronic pain and so other drugs even if they did work would stilll leave me in pain, so i haven't really endeavored to get on them again. but for some reason, whatever it is, i would prefer a sub-high dose of morphine continous in pill dosage to subutex, suboxone or methadone. for whatever reason, chemichally these other medicines work better for drug cravings even if i don't get high. the weird thing is that methadone effects me strongly at times, i will nod out on it. but even then i will still continously think about other drugs. i was always "taking days off" when i was on sub or on methadone and preferred barely feeling the other opiates to the maintenance drugs. i don't know why, but that is how it has always been for me. then when you add in the lack of pain killing and the added constipation, there is just little reason for me to want to be on these meds for OST.

i maintained on MS contin fairly well however without even being high. i took them orally and was never high, but they satisfied drug cravings immensely. is there a reason for this for some people? it seems odd that the other drugs do not really help me and maybe i am in a small minority with an ultra-resistant system to traditional OST, but morphine, hydromorphone, codeine even always are better. maybe it is in my head? i am not sure, but even in a clincal setting with the drugs of my prefeence dispensed they seem to work far better, even sans high. to be honest im not even particularly fond of morphine, i would choose hydromorphone or oxymorphone if i could, but morphine simply works to kill cravings, and so codeine works as well.

Hmm this is interesting. I would certainly NEVER choose morphine, hydrocodone, and certainly not codeine over methadone to alleviate my opiate cravings. I would suggest that perhaps it IS a mental thing, because, although everyone reacts differently to various substances, methadone does not operate like Suboxone or Subtex. Actually, methadone is considered one of the strongest opioid painkillers, as it is also prescribed to patients solely for use of alleviating chronic, severe pain, irrelevant to opiate addiction and withdrawal. Methadone is regarded as much, much stronger painkiller than hydrocodone, and oxycodone even, and its half-life runs miles around these weaker opioids as well.

Suboxone, however, does not perform as a painkiller regarding pain unrelated to opiated withdrawal.

 

[ChaosControl]

Morphine and other opioids don't have a quaternary carbon attached to a tertiary nitrogen. The tert nitrogen is there, but the carbons aren't quaternary; that "spot" on the molecule near the N is fairly similar between methadone and morphine. Also, levomethadone is a full µ-opioid agonist.

Wow, that's interesting. So are you suggesting that, according to Raki's assertion, Morphine and the other opiates that don't have a quaternary carbon attached to a tertiary nitrogen couldn't produced euphoria either? Assuming he is accurate in this claim.

I find this all very intriguing. Thanks for the input, everyone.

 

[blowpipe]

No, that would suggest the opposite. I just pointed out that what he said made little sense and couldn't be used to "chemically explain" whether methadone does or does not produce euphoria. Since they're similar in that respect and classical opioids (morphine et al) do produce euphoria, then that would rather suggest that methadone should too.

On topic though, I haven't gone past weak opioids (codeine) because I don't want to feel too good (read: get addicted), so I can't speak from personal experience, but I think I see where you're coming from Chaos. I think the reason many people say there is no euphoria to methadone is either
1) they're very opioid tolerant and their methadone is just maintenance to avoid WD
2) they're looking for a quick and strong rush. Methadone doesn't produce one. I think for many people euphoria means "getting hit strongly" by a drug.

I definitely agree with you on the statement that euphoria is a state of well being and contentness and I'm in the same boat, because I really like a good phenibut, a GABAergic, dose that will leave me feeling good and happy for hours on end. There's no rush, I don't the "woaaaaah maaaaan" feeling right after administering that makes me sink into the couch, but I love it because I can go about my daily life while feeling nice. I call that euphoria.

 

[ChaosControl]

No, that would suggest the opposite. I just pointed out that what he said made little sense and couldn't be used to "chemically explain" whether methadone does or does not produce euphoria. Since they're similar in that respect and classical opioids (morphine et al) do produce euphoria, then that would rather suggest that methadone should too.

On topic though, I haven't gone past weak opioids (codeine) because I don't want to feel too good (read: get addicted), so I can't speak from personal experience, but I think I see where you're coming from Chaos. I think the reason many people say there is no euphoria to methadone is either
1) they're very opioid tolerant and their methadone is just maintenance to avoid WD
2) they're looking for a quick and strong rush. Methadone doesn't produce one. I think for many people euphoria means "getting hit strongly" by a drug.

I definitely agree with you on the statement that euphoria is a state of well being and contentness and I'm in the same boat, because I really like a good phenibut, a GABAergic, dose that will leave me feeling good and happy for hours on end. There's no rush, I don't the "woaaaaah maaaaan" feeling right after administering that makes me sink into the couch, but I love it because I can go about my daily life while feeling nice. I call that euphoria.

You and I desire nearly indentical results from pharmaceuticals in regards to euphoria. Although you haven't experimented with any of the harder opiates (and for this, I commend you), when dosing, I seek for the same gradual boost that enhances my daily routine, transforming even the most mundane tasks into something at least quasi-enjoyable. I want my drugs to enhance my routine life, rather than remove me from it, completely numbing me to my existence. I would much prefer my opioids to take their time in peaking, and release consistently throughout my day, rather than slamming me into my chair for 15 min, and then have the remaining duration of that dose be downhill from the peak. This, of course, would explain my attraction towards methadone.

Thanks for chiming in, blowpipe. Good to hear from someone who defines "euphoria" similarly to myself.

 

[RedRum OG]

IMHO methadone takes so long to get "in your system " it isn't as euphoric. No matter the ROA it is always slower than any other major opiate. I think that is part of it.

Also if you're regularly taking it, there's so much built up in your body that the "up" from taking it isn't much. For example the "up" from being nasty dope sick then a shot of dope is huge, going from the bottom of the scale to the top. Whereas with m'done its baseline to slightly higher baseline, if that makes sense.

 

[ChaosControl]

IMHO methadone takes so long to get "in your system " it isn't as euphoric. No matter the ROA it is always slower than any other major opiate. I think that is part of it.

Also if you're regularly taking it, there's so much built up in your body that the "up" from taking it isn't much. For example the "up" from being nasty dope sick then a shot of dope is huge, going from the bottom of the scale to the top. Whereas with m'done its baseline to slightly higher baseline, if that makes sense.

Certainly, I understand that perspective greatly. The contrast of going from one extreme to the other (trapped in painful withdrawal; to liberatingly numb and stimulated) is quite exhilarating! But for me, much of this joy is overshadowed by the inevitability of the impending withdrawal, or even if I have more stock, the fact that the remainder of this dose is gonna be downhill from that instantaneous peak, that's quite a buzz-kill; whereas with methadone, one can go from being dope sick to "feeling better" in 30-45 minutes, and enjoy the rest of that dose, as the relief is continuously swelling, knowing that not only will you continue to increasingly "feel much better," you won't peak for 3 to 4 hours in. Additionally, (given that you take an accurate dosage for your tolerance), you shouldn't feel sick for the rest of the day, and potentially won't wake up feeling miserable either!

I do agree with what you're saying; conclusively, I'm just gathering that much of one's experience has to do with their mindset and managing expectations. If one can successfully live in the moment, then a shot or line of strong opiates will provide them unprecedented euphoria and a perfect experience. But if they have a tendency to allow a fear of the future water down the present, methadone will ensure that the user needn't worry for quite a while. And that mere certainty, in and of itself, can be quite euphoric.

As for me, I'd rather feel "good" for a long time, than feel "incredible" for a short time.

 

[neurotic]

that 'tert nitrogen attached to quarternary carbon required for euphoria' thing is wrong. the morphine rule says tertiary nitrogen *two carbons away* from quarternary carbon (as seen in methadone, morphine and pethidine derivatives...) is required for opioid activity - not euphoria. also this 'rule' has exceptions and compounds such as tapentadol and tilidine (and fentanyl iirc) don't follow it.

i have never tried methadone but i'm inclined to think that it could get an opiate naive person really high... i don't see why not. it is very similar in structure to dipipanone and dextromoramide which are kinda recreational i guess. meanwhile, morphine, at least in my book, has zero euphoria... very boring opiate - unfortunately.

 

[ChaosControl]

that 'tert nitrogen attached to quarternary carbon required for euphoria' thing is wrong. the morphine rule says tertiary nitrogen *two carbons away* from quarternary carbon (as seen in methadone, morphine and pethidine derivatives...) is required for opioid activity - not euphoria. also this 'rule' has exceptions and compounds such as tapentadol and tilidine (and fentanyl iirc) don't follow it.

i have never tried methadone but i'm inclined to think that it could get an opiate naive person really high... i don't see why not. it is very similar in structure to dipipanone and dextromoramide which are kinda recreational i guess. meanwhile, morphine, at least in my book, has zero euphoria... very boring opiate - unfortunately.

Your contribution to this thread is invaluable! THIS is the response I have been looking for. Not that I sought to validate my overt enjoyment of the drug, but I desired more clarity in the chemical makeup of methadone in contrast to other opiates, thus enabling me to better account for what agents (or lack thereof) are responsible for methadone's alleged irrevocable inability to induce euphoria. Due in large part to your additions here, these uncertainties are demystifying, equipping me with solid logical explanations of my euphoria-filled methadone experience rather than relying on a mere personal account to hold any true weight.


I would like to add, that methadone generating euphoria with this intensity is not contingent on the user's lack of experience or their naïveté with opiates.
I would not boast that I am an exceptional veteran in the field, but seasoned with four+ years of daily opioid use (including exposure and experience with everything from codeine and hydrocodone to fentanyl and oxymorphone, and everything in-between), I can say with quite certainty that the euphoria I experience with methadone is unmatched, and additionally, it is not misplaced as my DOC.
Actually, (intent on furthering this research) I recently switched from methadone to Opana, considering that perhaps I was wrong.
The results: I wasn't. Opana couldn't even compare to my euphoric experience with 'done. (And yes, I considered the appropriate conversion dosages, as methadone is a heavy painkiller.)


Oh, and I almost forgot; YEEEEEESSSS. Lol
In regards to your lack of enthusiasm towards morphine. Although I've seen Bluelighters crucify many other posters for making similar assertions, I couldn't agree more with you. Trust me, I want to like the stuff, as it's very accessible. Just don't.
However, (before someone else beats me to it), if you aren't IV'ing it, morph enthusiasts will reduce your opinion to invalid. Perhaps they're right? I wouldn't know. But apparently the true recreational value of morphine lies within banging it. And that's just not a ROA I can quite give myself over to.


Thanks again, neurotic, for alleviating my curiosity. Haha