Mental Health Psychiatric Treatments Debate vs trot out your medications bias and lemme at it

[herbavore]

Ok, here is the place to air our views and open up the discussion about prescribed medications/legal drugs for any and all of the DSM described conditions, disorders, states of mind and illnesses. I find that it is often the case in this forum to slip into derailing an OP's thread asking a specific question with our own arguments ,either pro and con, about certain medications and diagnoses or about the validity and use of all medications. Attempting to be mindful of where we engage in this debate, I am creating this thread.

I have been very open about my own biases against the institutionalized over-medicating of the American population starting with very young children in school and continuing into juvenile halls, prisons and nursing homes. I recognize that this is a completely political stance and I have no intention of denying anyone's beneficial experience with these drugs as they can be helpful, and often life-saving. I also recognize that what happens in my country is very different than other countries. My political views come from experiences with my own mental health, that of my late son (who was often medicated out of his mind by psychiatrists) and from working in an elementary school where I see children medicated for behaviors and not for their own best interests. They are also influenced by my association with The Foundation for Excellence in Mental Health Care, whose views and goals I share.

What I would ask for all the discussions on this forum is that we respect different perspectives, acknowledging that they are born of very personal and often painful experience, and keep our discussions as non-personal and non-aggressive as possible. A discussion is intended to expand the awareness of all the participants. It is important in a polarized world that we talk to each other respectfully, especially when we strongly disagree. I am quite passionate about my views and I'm sure everyone in this forum is as passionate about theirs. But no one ever changes their mind when being yelled at directly ( and that can be orally or through the written word). So my hope for this discussion/debate is that we can attack ideas and not each other for espousing them. We all want the same thing: we want effective treatment for anyone suffering chronic mental illness, whether it is depression, schizophrenia, anxiety, ADHD, bipolar or any mix of possible challenges. What better starting point than to look for balance and overlap in seemingly opposing views?

So pull off the boxing gloves, pull up a chair and let us know how you feel about everything from diagnosing to treatments.

 

[Rybee]

Speaking from the UK, I think America has a massive problem with not only abuse of prescription meds, but just use of prescription meds - I find this genuinely upsetting. Kids aged from x Years old are told they have ADHD and then drugged to death with Ritalin or they're told they have an anxiety disorder and put on SSRI/SNRI/TCAs or Klonopin/Xanax/Valium daily for 3,4,5+ years DAILY. It's a joke. In the UK, it's 2-3 weeks max of benzo. No more.

About 3 years in to my first bout of clinical depression did I have a therapist say 'You're unwell aren't you? You're really unwell at the moment' .. as if it was a bacterial infection. Before that it was 'You're depressed' 'Your chemicals are out of balance, you need to take X drug to get better'.

I was always told that I had depression, it was as if I had no control over it. I had it and that was that, I could take medication to help, but unfortunately I had 'clinical depression that was caused by a chemical imbalance'

When that guy looked me in the eye and said 'jeez Ry, you're really unwell right now aren't you mate?'... It was so refreshing. I'm sorry im really high right now, I hope you know what i mean... Just being told I was unwell made me feel so much happier, over being told 'you have a chemical imbalance, theres nothing you can do but take X drug'.

Also, I'm highly skeptical or the efficacy of SSRI/SNRI/TCAs etc... Therapy over medication is the proper route.

 

[casual1]

Rebecca Riley. Diagnosed as bipolar at age 3. Dead at age 4. Her psychiatrist is still practising.

 

[herbavore]

Rebecca Riley. Diagnosed as bipolar at age 3. Dead at age 4. Her psychiatrist is still practising.

From writer David Jaffe on the subject of Rebecca Riley:

Unfortunately, the mistreatment that seemingly marked her home life was to be coupled with mistreatment of a different sort — by the psychiatric profession. Despite the environmental and intrafamilial stressors that no doubt caused Rebecca to act out in any number of ways, the psychiatrist who “treated” her somehow saw fit to diagnose this child who was presumably barely out of diapers with a major mental illness, bipolar disorder. Having established such pathology (at least within the narrow, biologically-biased confines of his or her mind), the doctor then chose to subject Rebecca to a powerful and, in retrospect, dangerous cocktail of psychotropic medications some or all of which was prescribed off-label. It is difficult to imagine a more negligent and incompetent level of care. A suspension, if not an indictment, should be forthcoming.

But what of the psychiatric establishment at large, which increasingly overlooks or minimizes the role of environment in the development of dysfunction and dis-ease in favor of purely biological factors that can ostensibly be treated with medication? What of the pharmaceutical companies, and their sales representatives, which encourage such points of view and increasingly promote the off-label use of their products, such as the medication that Rebecca was on? What of the health insurance companies, which generally prefer the cost efficiency of pharmacotherapy versus psychotherapy and support such treatment? What of Congress and the Food and Drug Administration, which have permitted lobbyists for the pharmaceutical and insurance industry to have undue influence over public policy and to help create a system of care that values the profits of a few to the health of the many? What of the Bush Administration, which pays lip service to the needs of children and families but fails to adequately fund essential programs and services (instead spending hundreds of billions of dollars on the war in Iraq)? What of all these others who, in one way or another, were complicit in the death of Rebecca Riley? Why don't they have to answer for this tragedy?

 

[Kittycat5]

I disagree with the sentiment that Americans on whole have a problem with overuse of prescription drugs. We surely are pharmas best market as we, for the most part, do not have socialized healthcare. But this means there are many more me-too drugs within all therapeutic classes, not necessarily more treatment options. If you are diabetic or suffered a myocardial infarction, you will no doubt be on a cocktail of drugs if you live in the UK or USA. In America, though, a physician may choose among 10 or so ACE inhibitors for prevention of complications of diabetes, while in other countries they may be limited to one or two.

But psychiatry and its pharmacological treatments are different. I hold many of the same views as herbavore. Once things like antidepressants, started going mainstream and the stigma of psychiatric care decreased, I believe psychiatrists finally felt they could be seen in the same light as their fellow medical peers. But once this ball got rolling, there was no stopping it. We have seen an astronomical rise in what are considered psychiatric diseases and are quick to throw drugs at anyone of them without proper evidence of their efficacy. Signs and symptoms are either vague or overlapping that misdiagnosis and thus mistreatment is all too common, as in the case of this poor little girl above. It is sad when this occurs in the adult population, but downright tragic when we subject children to the horrors these drugs can cause.

The first generation of children widely prescribed drugs for psych conditions are now becoming young adults. It saddens me that many of them cannot or will not evaluate themselves and decide if treatment is still needed simply because they do not know life without drugs. I hope that the long term use of psychoactive therapies will not have negative effects but I doubt this to be true.

I know many smart scientists are trying to pin down the physiological and neurological causes of things like depression and anxiety, but we arent there yet. We need to reserve these drugs for the patients who will benefit the most, not just the ones who may benefit without doing the hard work of counseling and self growth.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Stuff like depression and scizhophrenia etc are vexing problems. The medical industry/doctors/researchers try to do the best they can to treat it based on what's known about the chemistry of the brain, in fields like neurology/psychopharmacology etc. Treatments are approximate so of course there are going to be a lot of people who are unsatisfied with them.

And then there's the complications arising from greed and the fact that we live in a capitalist market economy. And then there's the people who are overmedicated for a minor problem, or undermedicated for a major problem...I think that drugs may have a role in treating psychiatric conditions; my personal experience is one in which I'd say that my life has gotten better since I started using certain drugs, notably cannabis. (Which has been a great anxiolytic over the years for me...of course cannabis triggers anxiety for many other people, but I don't think there's a "one size fits all" solution to psychiatric distress vis-à-vis drugs, what worked for me might not work for someone else and vice versa.)

 

[SixBuckets]

Great thread!
My views in bullet points:

- over medicalisation and over prescription are a thing
- side effects are an often debilitating thing
- low health literacy among mental health consumers and lack of transparency in the pharmaceutical industry is also a thing
- as is the unwillingness of doctors and medical professionals to work with consumers as informed agents and prioritise quality of life in all areas rather than merely survival/lack of behavioural issues
- psychiatric medications can and do save lives
- we're all special snowflakes (ie each individual responds very differently to each medication and one person's experience cannot be extrapolated to any other individual)
- treatments and therapies outside psychiatric pharmaceuticals can be very effective for some people, whether in addition to or instead of medication
- it's really not OK to tell people that a medication that is working/may work for them "doesn't work" or "makes people zombies" etc etc
- it's also not OK to tell people who are managing symptoms without medication that their techniques are similarly fraudulent
- mental health workers (everyone from psychiatrists to therapists to naturopaths) are not gods. They sometimes cause immense harm through poor practice or outright exploitation and this should be recognised and acknowledged when people report it. A lot of people really struggle when they are harmed by people who are supposed to help them with their mental health.
- that said, a good mental health support team (medical or otherwise) can work wonders with most people.
- I think that's it.

 

[RiseAgain]

Great idea Herbavore!

I'm going to have a lot to add to this, I'll start by listing a few of the things that bother me the most:

- The corruption in the FDA, APA, Big Pharma, the fraudulent DSM etc.

- The fraudulent ways in which Big Pharma conducts their "clinical trials".

- Prescribing medications long term based on safety profiles determined with 6 week long studies.

- Treating mental illness as a biological problem when it is really emotional/circumstantial problem.

- The human rights violations of mental health patients. Convicted felons have more human rights than mental health patients. Psychiatrists literally have license to play god with their patients, and not all Psychiatrists are good people.

- Using medication as a first line of treatment.

- Poly drugging patients.

- ECT and psycosurgery, which I don't understand why anyone could possibly think those thing help people. ECT is seen as successful when they observe a grand mal seizure, ie brain damage. These treatments are no different to icepick lobotomies. And lets not forget that they only stopped that shit about 45 years ago, most people forget things very quickly.

- Mental health care being a for profit industry which incentives Drs to poly drug patients and keep them in the mental health system. The patients are customers, and businesses want to retain customers.

- The drugging of children and labeling normal behaviors as psychiatric issues caused by a "Chemical imbalance" that need to be treated with pharmaceuticals.

- The correlation between the development of a new range of patented psychotropic drugs and the surge in mental illness. Off the top of my head, less than 1% of the population were being treated for mental health issues 20-30 years ago, when Big Pharma didn't have many patented psychiatric meds. Now more than 8% of the population is taking at least one of these new patented meds (SSRIs, Methylphenidate, atypical APs etc.).

I'll stop there for now, and leave this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8bt8eUB1CU It's a guy who worked for Eli Lilly for 35 tears and turned whistleblower after they had him bribe the Swedish government to get them to approve SSRIs. He said the main reason he spoke up is he wants to help the children, Big Pharma are targeting children with their "Medications" to create lifelong customers, just like the tobacco companies did. I Know it sounds like a conspiracy, but all the proof is there if you do some research. And it's not like it's unusual, it's really just history repeating itself, as it always does.

 

[jammin83]

Great thread!
My views in bullet points:

- over medicalisation and over prescription are a thing
- side effects are an often debilitating thing
- low health literacy among mental health consumers and lack of transparency in the pharmaceutical industry is also a thing
- as is the unwillingness of doctors and medical professionals to work with consumers as informed agents and prioritise quality of life in all areas rather than merely survival/lack of behavioural issues
- psychiatric medications can and do save lives
- we're all special snowflakes (ie each individual responds very differently to each medication and one person's experience cannot be extrapolated to any other individual)
- treatments and therapies outside psychiatric pharmaceuticals can be very effective for some people, whether in addition to or instead of medication
- it's really not OK to tell people that a medication that is working/may work for them "doesn't work" or "makes people zombies" etc etc
- it's also not OK to tell people who are managing symptoms without medication that their techniques are similarly fraudulent
- mental health workers (everyone from psychiatrists to therapists to naturopaths) are not gods. They sometimes cause immense harm through poor practice or outright exploitation and this should be recognised and acknowledged when people report it. A lot of people really struggle when they are harmed by people who are supposed to help them with their mental health.
- that said, a good mental health support team (medical or otherwise) can work wonders with most people.
- I think that's it.

I completely agree with all of this. That about sums it up. I might add more to the thread at a later point in time.

RiseAgain, the people with Eli Lily are downright criminal. Further reading here.

 

[casual1]

From The Age newspaper:

Hundreds of Victoria mental health patients die prematurely each year

May 24, 2015


Hundreds of mental health patients are dying in unexpected, unnatural or violent circumstances every year, with the Andrews government conceding it is "extremely concerned" about the rate of deaths.

An analysis of the latest available data from the chief psychiatrist found that an average 355 people who are receiving mental health care either in the community or within state-run psychiatric wards are dying annually.

But experts fear the figures are just tip of the iceberg, because some cases go unreported and the human services department has also refused to release the most up-to-date statistics from the past two years.

As the government embarks on a 10-year mental health plan to improve services in Victoria, the latest public figures reveal there were more than 1421 reported deaths between 2008-2012. Of that total, 927 were classified as "unexpected, unnatural or violent" deaths, although it is not clear how many of these were the result of suicide compared to other causes.
Advertisement

Insiders attribute the figures to a range of factors, including inadequate and insufficient risk assessment of patients, a lack of resources and the systemic failure of communication between staff or units.

And although the department says action has been taken to tackle the problem – including a three-yearly "death reviews" and other regular audits – community groups, mental health workers, and Victorian Public Advocate Colleen Pearce believe a stronger, more co-ordinated response is needed.

Ms Pearce said the figures were alarming, and Chris Atmore, policy adviser for the Federation of Community Legal Centres, said the fact that the same types of deaths had been happening for years "makes it clear that whatever recommendations or strategies have been adopted over the years haven't been effective".

"There's almost an attitude that a certain level of psychiatric inpatient deaths is just to be expected because these people have mental illnesses and therefore, some people are going to be at risk of suicide, and as long as it's kept to a certain level, then that's good enough," Ms Atmore said.

"But we don't think that everything that could be done, is being done."

The department says that most reported deaths involve people living in the community who are using a mental health service, and that only a small number relate to deaths that take place at in-patient units.

But Health and Community Services Union assistant secretary Paul Healey said a decade worth of cuts by successive governments had put the system "on its arse", resulting in some patients not necessarily getting the specialised treatment they needed.

"Once upon a time everyone who was discharged from a hospital would be followed up properly. Now that's not always the case," he said.

Concerns about deaths in the state's mental health wards was highlighted by The Age in 2011, prompting a review by the chief psychiatrist, which identified 41 inpatient deaths between January 1, 2008 and December 31, 2010.

Since then, the department has made a range of improvements, including regular audits of ligature points to remove possible opportunities for suicide, improved risk assessment of patients, and a requirement for all services to have action plans to reduce the numbers of deaths in the system.

Mental Health Minister Martin Foley accused the former Coalition government of cutting services "to the bone", but added: "I am extremely concerned about any premature deaths of people who are receiving mental health care, and we must work to improve services so that we can prevent such tragedies.

He said a 10-year government mental health plan involved working with service providers and people living with mental illness to improve the system and save lives.

Opposition mental health spokesman Tim Bull said the Coalition provided record funding to support mental health services in Victoria "and Daniel Andrews must continue our commitment of increased funding and reform to help patients and families".

Public Advocate Colleen Pearce said the public needed more current information specifying whether the people who died were inpatients or receiving mental health services in the community "so that action can be taken to prevent further deaths".

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/h...-each-year-20150523-gh80rt.html#ixzz3mh2eljWc
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

 

[SixBuckets]

Great idea Herbavore!

I'm going to have a lot to add to this, I'll start by listing a few of the things that bother me the most:

- The corruption in the FDA, APA, Big Pharma, the fraudulent DSM etc.

- The fraudulent ways in which Big Pharma conducts their "clinical trials".

- Prescribing medications long term based on safety profiles determined with 6 week long studies.

- Treating mental illness as a biological problem when it is really emotional/circumstantial problem.

- The human rights violations of mental health patients. Convicted felons have more human rights than mental health patients. Psychiatrists literally have license to play god with their patients, and not all Psychiatrists are good people.

- Using medication as a first line of treatment.

- Poly drugging patients.

- ECT and psycosurgery, which I don't understand why anyone could possibly think those thing help people. ECT is seen as successful when they observe a grand mal seizure, ie brain damage. These treatments are no different to icepick lobotomies. And lets not forget that they only stopped that shit about 45 years ago, most people forget things very quickly.

- Mental health care being a for profit industry which incentives Drs to poly drug patients and keep them in the mental health system. The patients are customers, and businesses want to retain customers.

- The drugging of children and labeling normal behaviors as psychiatric issues caused by a "Chemical imbalance" that need to be treated with pharmaceuticals.

- The correlation between the development of a new range of patented psychotropic drugs and the surge in mental illness. Off the top of my head, less than 1% of the population were being treated for mental health issues 20-30 years ago, when Big Pharma didn't have many patented psychiatric meds. Now more than 8% of the population is taking at least one of these new patented meds (SSRIs, Methylphenidate, atypical APs etc.).

I'll stop there for now, and leave this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8bt8eUB1CU It's a guy who worked for Eli Lilly for 35 tears and turned whistleblower after they had him bribe the Swedish government to get them to approve SSRIs. He said the main reason he spoke up is he wants to help the children, Big Pharma are targeting children with their "Medications" to create lifelong customers, just like the tobacco companies did. I Know it sounds like a conspiracy, but all the proof is there if you do some research. And it's not like it's unusual, it's really just history repeating itself, as it always does.

I think most of your points are excellent, but I feel the need to address this:

- Treating mental illness as a biological problem when it is really emotional/circumstantial problem.

It's definitely true that many people experience symptoms of mental illness caused by environmental/situational factors, but it's also definitely true that there is a biological component to many mental illnesses. It's not 100% one or the other. Technically, mental illness is referred to as a "biopsychosocial" condition, which is exactly what it says on the box: it's caused by a mix of biological, psychological and social factors.

and this:

- The correlation between the development of a new range of patented psychotropic drugs and the surge in mental illness. Off the top of my head, less than 1% of the population were being treated for mental health issues 20-30 years ago, when Big Pharma didn't have many patented psychiatric meds. Now more than 8% of the population is taking at least one of these new patented meds (SSRIs, Methylphenidate, atypical APs etc.).

30 years ago fewer people were accessing health care at all. Yes, fewer people were being treated for mental illness, but also people with mental illness tended to just die instead of seeking treatment. We actually don't have data to tell us whether real experiences of mental illness have increased or just dx, or what the change in the QALY related to mental illness has been, because data collection on this up until a few decades ago was really shit.

Definitely agree that some people are being medicated who may not need medication, and definitely agree that pharma is pursuing it's own profits and interest rather than a social good, but be cautious citing those stats as proof of either.

 

[silverwheel]

30 years ago fewer people were accessing health care at all. Yes, fewer people were being treated for mental illness, but also people with mental illness tended to just die instead of seeking treatment. We actually don't have data to tell us whether real experiences of mental illness have increased or just dx, or what the change in the QALY related to mental illness has been, because data collection on this up until a few decades ago was really shit.

This. My deceased uncle is a perfect example. He hung himself about a decade before I was born, and at the time, he was diagnosed as schizophrenic, but that was a catchall term in the 60's and 70's. Today, he almost certainly would be diagnosed as Bipolar, and would have many more treatment options available to him. One can never know for sure, but chances are good that he never would have killed himself if he was born during this era. Our understanding of mental illness has grown terrifically over the last couple of decades, and our treatments have grown more specific and subtle. Yes, there are many who probably don't need to be on these meds, but it breaks my heart when I hear people blaming pharmaceuticals for mental illness. There are plenty of reasons to distrust pharmaceutical companies, but they are not causing mental illness, and have developed a lot of effective medicines over the last 20-30 years.

 

[Foreigner]

Modern doctors are clueless about how to actually treat depression, and most chronic disease. There's no talk of diet or lifestyle modification. You'd be lucky if you find a doctor who suggests vitamins, which aren't that great in the first place.

The level of overdiagnosis in North America is a symptom of much greater problems. The way humans are living isn't natural. There's more and more survival stress, less communal support, less access to life giving resources. Real food that isn't laced with chemical crap is costly. Junk food is cheaper. People are mostly being drugged to force them to conform to an outdated model, whether it's the education system or 9-5 consumer capitalism.

If people actually lived within their means and lived according to how healthy humans should be living, this entire economy would collapse overnight.

 

[SixBuckets]

This. My deceased uncle is a perfect example. He hung himself about a decade before I was born, and at the time, he was diagnosed as schizophrenic, but that was a catchall term in the 60's and 70's. Today, he almost certainly would be diagnosed as Bipolar, and would have many more treatment options available to him. One can never know for sure, but chances are good that he never would have killed himself if he was born during this era. Our understanding of mental illness has grown terrifically over the last couple of decades, and our treatments have grown more specific and subtle. Yes, there are many who probably don't need to be on these meds, but it breaks my heart when I hear people blaming pharmaceuticals for mental illness. There are plenty of reasons to distrust pharmaceutical companies, but they are not causing mental illness, and have developed a lot of effective medicines over the last 20-30 years.

My mum has bipolar and so do I. The difference in the treatment options available, the effectiveness of them and their side effects - compare her experience seeking treatment in the 70s and 80s to my experience seeking treatment in the early 2000s and it seems like you're talking 100 years of medical advancement. We really have made incredibly gains in recent decades.

Modern doctors are clueless about how to actually treat depression, and most chronic disease. There's no talk of diet or lifestyle modification. You'd be lucky if you find a doctor who suggests vitamins, which aren't that great in the first place.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. I acknowledge that I've been very lucky to find a good psychiatrist, but my guy has suggested dietary modifications and supplement, as well as self-management tools like mood diaries. All of which I found really useful.

When I went through pain management for fibromyalgia, I was also offered a huge range of non-pharmaceutical therapies, almost to an extreme. I had to go through six months of trying everything they could think of before they're prescribe painkillers.

The level of overdiagnosis in North America is a symptom of much greater problems. The way humans are living isn't natural. There's more and more survival stress, less communal support, less access to life giving resources. Real food that isn't laced with chemical crap is costly. Junk food is cheaper. People are mostly being drugged to force them to conform to an outdated model, whether it's the education system or 9-5 consumer capitalism.

If people actually lived within their means and lived according to how healthy humans should be living, this entire economy would collapse overnight.

Yep. Agree with you here.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

I am actually "blessed" as it were with a doctor that ran fairly comprehensive blood tests on me. It was found that I indeed did have a vitamin deficiency, so I've been prescribed a two-month regimen of them. I take one a week. Though my insurance didn't cover the whole cost (I've been a bit spoiled with further good fortune of awesome medication coverage) it's more than worth it.

I think a lot of people forget that in order to get optimally well, at least from my perspective, it's prudent to involve a therapist, friends, a general practitioner when needed, and a psychiatrist. I think the problem isn't so much that psychiatrists don't take into account lifestyle/vitamins, but that people think they can get well by just going to a psychiatrist.

Psychiatrists do what they've learned to do, the same as these other constituents. I don't think it's logical to presume that they would advocate lifestyle changes--that's the role of a therapist. GPs also are more geared toward lifestyle changes, and friends can offer social support and may have a few ideas to bounce off the professionals. I think it's even a stretch to think that psychiatrists would test vitamin/mineral levels. That's more the kind of thing that general practitioners do.

There's definitely an overlap here, though. I think a good source would take into account all domains.

Well America has been industrialized for a good half century at least. I guess one could argue that overpopulation has made it so that more people are forced to live in more unnatural habitats. But even back in the 60's there were some pretty big cities there. And prescriptions were overall lower.

I guess I don't totally disagree with you on the stress/lesser support/lower quality of food. But I think it's important to realize that these forces aren't present without opposition. For instance, tobacco usage, which we all now now is horrible for health, is at a low. Tobacco, though used by the mentally ill, isn't good for them (for the most part).

Also, the computer age has allowed more interconnection than ever. Not only that, but there is a growing public sentiment of empathy towards those who have mental illness. Being bipolar doesn't have nearly the degree of stigma attached to it today as it had even ten years ago; it's true though, that we're still pretty far from accepting schizophrenic people on a societal level as anything more than "crazy", whatever that means. There is more communication than ever, as a result of our interconnection, on what is healthy and what isn't. With that, there is also a general trend toward acceptance.

I think it's important to specify exactly what drugs we're talking about. I think there's enough information on benzos out there (as a result of enhanced communication) that doctors know how harmful they can be, and I bet they prescribe them less now than they did forty years ago, even in America. Of course there will always be drug fiends; that's a given. I think the big problem for America regarding drugs, notwithstanding heroin (I guess i meant to say in prescription drugs), is the remarkable amount of stimulants being prescribed. It's bizarre.

Again, the education system and 9-5 workday isn't something new and evil. It's been going on for a while.

Why would the economy collapse? I don't quite follow.

 

[Rybee]

Great thread!
My views in bullet points:

- over medicalisation and over prescription are a thing
- side effects are an often debilitating thing
- low health literacy among mental health consumers and lack of transparency in the pharmaceutical industry is also a thing
- as is the unwillingness of doctors and medical professionals to work with consumers as informed agents and prioritise quality of life in all areas rather than merely survival/lack of behavioural issues
- psychiatric medications can and do save lives
- we're all special snowflakes (ie each individual responds very differently to each medication and one person's experience cannot be extrapolated to any other individual)
- treatments and therapies outside psychiatric pharmaceuticals can be very effective for some people, whether in addition to or instead of medication
- it's really not OK to tell people that a medication that is working/may work for them "doesn't work" or "makes people zombies" etc etc
- it's also not OK to tell people who are managing symptoms without medication that their techniques are similarly fraudulent
- mental health workers (everyone from psychiatrists to therapists to naturopaths) are not gods. They sometimes cause immense harm through poor practice or outright exploitation and this should be recognised and acknowledged when people report it. A lot of people really struggle when they are harmed by people who are supposed to help them with their mental health.
- that said, a good mental health support team (medical or otherwise) can work wonders with most people.
- I think that's it.

Great post SixBuckets. On point.

 

[Rybee]

A brilliant, and quite honestly horrifying, read: The Myth of The Chemical Cure by Dr. Joanna Moncrieff - a Professor of Psychiatry.

That book is the sole reason I chose to put my foot down at being clinically-abused and poly-drugged to death after being labelled as a 'chemically imbalanced' poor old soul.

I addressed my 'depression' and 'anxiety' by REALLY looking at the root causes which I was ignorant to beforehand. Granted, it was tough as fuck. It took a lot of work in my own time, and a lot of patience, as well as 12 months of bi-weekly hour long CBT sessions with a Dr of Psychology - but I've never felt better and will never touch an 'anit-depressant' (whatever the fuck one of them is anyway) ever again in my life.

I'm not saying this is applicable to everyone - but we live in a world now where Depression and Anxiety is diagnosed more than tootache. There are some awfully life debilitating mental health diseases out there that do largely require pharmaceutical intervention. Largely, depression and anxiety don't fit in that category.

People may find this post controversial, but I honest think it's very easy to shirk responsibility for your own physical and mental wellbeing and play the sympathy card.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Hey Rybee,

No doubt it's exceedingly difficult to get well. The implicit myth going around is that simply popping a pill will fix your problems--you know, with all of the advertisements showing a bunch of happy people and such. Any drug that completely resolves symptoms by itself is bound to be addictive, and unsustainable.

CBT is an amazing tool. It sounds like you really worked hard at it with, as makes sense, a mental health professional with an advanced degree. It's very unfortunate that many people who can't afford to go to a Dr. for psychological treatment instead go to a therapist, which is much better than nothing but therapists don't learn how to unearth problems at their source and examine them nearly so well as a Dr. does. If the case is that a mentally ill person cant see a psychologist due to financial restrictions, it is very prudent that they engage in group therapy, as it may help to make up for this deficit. Even if one can see a doctor in psychology, group therapy helps a whole lot! I do with I had taken advantage of it more in the past.

12 months may seem like a long time to some of us, but it is just the beginning. People with mental illness need ongoing talk-therapy for many years at least. Still, good on you Rybee!

Everyone is different. Some require pharmacological treatment. Others don't. Yet I do see that people are fast to rely on a pill to solve their problems. In reality, becoming healthy takes a lot more work!

 

[herbavore]

I think a lot of people forget that in order to get optimally well, at least from my perspective, it's prudent to involve a therapist, friends, a general practitioner when needed, and a psychiatrist. I think the problem isn't so much that psychiatrists don't take into account lifestyle/vitamins, but that people think they can get well by just going to a psychiatrist.

Psychiatrists do what they've learned to do, the same as these other constituents. I don't think it's logical to presume that they would advocate lifestyle changes--that's the role of a therapist. GPs also are more geared toward lifestyle changes, and friends can offer social support and may have a few ideas to bounce off the professionals. I think it's even a stretch to think that psychiatrists would test vitamin/mineral levels. That's more the kind of thing that general practitioners do.

The weird thing to me is how much the profession has changed. Going to a psychiatrist used to be called going into analysis. The psychiatrist was the therapist! Since the majority have allowed themselves to simply become medications managers the field has lost a lot of depth IMO. There is thankfully a movement within psychiatry to reclaim the more holistic nature that it originally embodied.


I do wholeheartedly agree with the first paragraph I quoted from you. People need to go after their own mental health using every available form of support. I truly believe that nutrition is one of the cornerstones.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Without a doubt! I feel loads better now that I'm not always eating the greasy food and cake that my school sells. I substituted for nuts with a few chocolate chips mixed in (just so I have a bit more incentive to eat it), and since, have been able to work longer. I just feel a lot more clear because of it.

I'm still somewhat young so I wasn't in the system as things began to change, but I do recall learning somewhere that psychiatrists used to talk to their patients more. I think that this can be offset if one's therapist, psychiatrist, and other health professionals have frequent talks about eh individual and are located in the same general area. But I definitely agree that psychiatrists should be talking with their patients more than is usually the case.