Fully automatic, fully autonomous, or somewhere in between?

[Flickering]

How do you experience your mind and your decisions?

Bill Hicks said "Life is like a ride at an amusement park." The thing about a ride is you have no control over it, you just sit back and let it happen to you. In a way, that's exactly what the brain is: a ride to be experienced. Sometimes it's up, sometime's it's down, sometimes it's big and sometimes it's small. 'You' can't really influence what happens because the 'you' that's influencing it is inseparable from the ride itself.

You can take an upper to boost your mood, sure - but the decision to take the upper is the result of deeply unconscious processes. In other words, the decision to take the upper and boost your mood is ALSO part of the ride. Experiencing it as a conscious decision IS part of the ride over which you have no control.

The more you look for yourself, the more you realise you aren't really there. At least, not in the sense of being some executive control mechanism residing in the body that decides how you're going to feel and what you're going to do. The executive, conscious function emerges out of pure automation.

Sometimes I like to see things that way, just to shift my mindset. But, like anything, it is just a mindset, just another way of looking at things. If I experienced myself as purely autonomous instead, I would have to accept full responsibility for every single thing I see and feel in the entire world; in other words, I would have to accept responsibility for the world itself, because it's an extention of my body and mind; my body and mind come from the rest of the world.

Holy shit, and I'm not even high right now. Hope this makes sense. What do you reckon?

 

[murphythecat]

thing is, we are in full control of every action we make:meaning that we chose, in every moment, the next ''move''. we may not even realize it as some things we do almost automatically like bodily movement. but if we were to take a closer look, we would realize that the mind demands and we let the demands go thru and try to answer the mind demands to satisfy.

we are not in control of our mind either because we make ourselves unhappy. nobody in control of their life would make themselves think unhappy thoughts, think unwholesome thoughts ect because a person in control would know that to do those things is foolish and creates suffering. yet we let the mind think all he wants, gets all he wants, ect. we are controlled by the mind.

however, I think in your question you take for granted the self. the believe that we are a thing, a entity and that there something in the universe we can call our own. the mind is not ours, perception is not ours as its always changing. there is not one solid building block in the universe. there is no-thing actually, only movement. the things we take as objects, as a body, ect are constructed of the same building block as everything else.

If I experienced myself as purely autonomous instead, I would have to accept full responsibility for every single thing I see and feel in the entire world
I think that we can be fully in control, but we arent because we are unable to do so. however, its quite clear that we can change the way we feel, the way we think and change basically fully how we are.
even what you see, you had decided to observe it.

 

[Flickering]

That's actually exactly what I'm trying to get at. When I define I as 'that which makes decisions', I'm deluding myself. Yet that's what we, as a society, do, whenever we try to define ourselves.

This:

thing is, we are in full control of every action we make. we may not even realize it as some things we do almost automatically like bodily movement. but if we were to take a closer look, we would realize that the mind is in control.

is just as valid as this:

you have no control over it, you just sit back and let it happen to you. In a way, that's exactly what the brain is: a ride to be experienced.

and ultumately they are not different, except insofar as they are both interpretations.

 

[murphythecat]

kk, thats what I thought!
taking control of your mind is a constant action you can make. to take control, you simply have to be mindful.
if you develop mindfulness, it will begin quite obvious that you are fully in control.

That's actually exactly what I'm trying to get at. When I define I as 'that which makes decisions', I'm deluding myself. Yet that's what we, as a society, do, whenever we try to define ourselves.

This:



is just as valid as this:



and ultumately they are not different, except insofar as they are both interpretations.

what would sitting back and enjoy the ride of the brain be like for you?

 

[Flickering]

Relaxing.

 

[murphythecat]

and why dont you just do it?
the mind without thoughts is already very relaxed. thing is, we are not in control of our thoughts and so it blocks us from that. we cannot only sit back and hope it comes nice and easy, we have to take control that mind of yours that constantly thinks, ponder, crave, ect and stop putting importance to all that.
thing is, WE ourselves believe our thoughts and believe they can bring something worthwhile and so think.

Relaxing.

 

[murphythecat]

I thought about your topic flickering.
I think that we have no real control over our body or the material reality. we are bound to the material reality and our body is subject to it. we cannot really control material reality, affect it, but not change it really.

our mind, however, is in our control and must be controlled in order to find what we are all looking for. I think that yes, we have to accept full responsibility for every single thing I see and feel in the entire world. I totally agree as the way we feel toward the world is our responsibility, no one else.

the material world is what it is.
the problem we all have is that the material world does not give all what the mind hopes it could give and so we answer negatively to what is, rather then accept what is and what we must do about it to stop affecting our happiness, ect.

 

[Flickering]

and why dont you just do it?

Well, I do!

These past six months or so, I've applied mindfulness to train myself out of the crushing anxiety I've felt every day for years. There's no stopping the chatter of the mind, but it's not so hard to redirect it. Left unaware to its own devices, my mind tends to go...

"Money... fuck. Education... fuck. Career... fuck. Humans... FUCK."

All day long. But, just like when we were in school and some bully or some brat wanting attention came up to us and started acting obnoxious, the thing to do isn't to indulge the thoughts or to resist them by telling them to go away. They feed off negative attention - oh, I can't even change my own thought patterns, aren't I useless, etc. The thing to do is to loudly and pointedly talk about something else as though it isn't happening.

So, I often find myself fretting about useless shit as I walk down the street, things I can't change one bit while I'm simply moving from one place to another. And then I make a point of speaking up and going, why look, aren't those autumn leaves beautiful! And the flow of traffic, a sociological current in motion. And the entire city, a hive of human activity in real-life high definition. Why would I let myself miss these things? Anxiety sabotages your ability to live, and when I really look back, most of the things I used to dread came true, but I'm still alive, still breathing, so who gives a fuck? Often, I turn worried thoughts into daydreams about more enjoyable topics, such as gaming with friends. I think this is a big part of why being around good friends helps cheer a depressed person up.

But, isn't it interesting how even the decision to change my thoughts is a decision that belong to the 'self', and the self is part of something much, much bigger. Just like no organism can decide to bring itself into existence; each of us required two other people to fuck each other first, and we had no control over that, we weren't there to have a say in the matter. Nor did we choose the strucutre of our bodies or minds, or that of the world we came into. We assume, we have been told all our lives, that we have control and responsibility, but in a very valid way, we really don't. Seen from one angle, everything is totally automatic. Flowing. Like freefall. When I used to get scared about death, I would find an odd consolation in the thought that there wasn't a single thing I could do to prevent it. In that way, it seemed it was meant to happen. That always calmed me down. So that's how I treat all the suffering and misfortune in my own life, with this queer knowledge that somehow, it really was meant to be. It allows me to step back and stop blaming myself for everything.

 

[murphythecat]

to establish mindfulness of thought, you seem to be good at it from your description, but you cannot only practice mindfulness of thoughts, you will go nuts

it goes like this: mindfulness of thoughts: ask your mind: where are you right now? are you here in this moment? youll most likely see that your mind is in the past or future. once you did this, you need to see what you were thinking about: was it positive, negative or neutral? if it was unwholesome (negative), simply generate a positive thoughts, exactly like you said about watching the beautiful leaves, ect.
once youve replaced the negativity into positivity, you can let go of thoughts and simply be concenr on the body: mindfulness of the body.
so when you walk, you watch every step. if you think, ask your mind, where are you now? you will see hes not now. so if he thinks negatively, you redirect him to positivity and as soon as you have been able to generate positivity, drop the thoughts and try to be mindful of what your body is feeling/doing. maybe you see claerly that the goal is to get closer to what is really happening in reality. with time, you will realize that you think less and less and are able to create more and more space between thoughts.

if you are able to do this, meditation will be very easy as mindfulness is already well establish, you create less and less bad karma by doing this in your every day life. why? because you are always aware, therefore the mind cannot go in his habitual way to think/judge/ ponder/ critic/ remember. having negative thoughts is negative in itself as it makes us unhappy as long as the thought is in the mind. therefore, we must do everything in our power to not let a negative thought stay in the mind too long. as long as you are aware of it, replace it with positivity, then go back to mindfulness on the body. this is called the 4 supreme efforts and its very useful and life changing really as if your able to dwell more and more into mindfulness of the body, when you will go meditate, the concentration on the breath will be much easier to attain.

about the self, I dont think we have a self.

 

[Flickering]

Yes, absolutely. This is something I've been getting better at. Often the simple sensations of the body are fascinating and it's a wonder we miss so much of what's going on with our physical selves. When I've sat in meditation for hours, at times it's opened up awareness of my own muscle structure, which is something I otherwise only get on high doses of psychedelic drugs.

The thing I've always struggled with a bit, like I mentioned I've always enjoyed daydreaming, and part of the reason I've resisted meditation and mindfulness in the past is, well, I love that creative mindset and I don't really want to forsake it for the living moment. The best answer I've come to is to at least be aware that I'm daydreaming so I don't do it out of habit, and to make sure the thoughts are positive and entertaining, not negative and dwelling.

 

[murphythecat]

how often do you meditate?

Yes, absolutely. This is something I've been getting better at. Often the simple sensations of the body are fascinating and it's a wonder we miss so much of what's going on with our physical selves. When I've sat in meditation for hours, at times it's opened up awareness of my own muscle structure, which is something I otherwise only get on high doses of psychedelic drugs.

The thing I've always struggled with a bit, like I mentioned I've always enjoyed daydreaming, and part of the reason I've resisted meditation and mindfulness in the past is, well, I love that creative mindset and I don't really want to forsake it for the living moment. The best answer I've come to is to at least be aware that I'm daydreaming so I don't do it out of habit, and to make sure the thoughts are positive and entertaining, not negative and dwelling.

 

[-=SS=-]

The more you look for yourself, the more you realise you aren't really there. At least, not in the sense of being some executive control mechanism residing in the body that decides how you're going to feel and what you're going to do. The executive, conscious function emerges out of pure automation.

There is an answer to your topic/question, I personally believe it to be true, and there's people out there who know its true through direct experience.. but it's not an answer most people like to hear..

And it is basically what you stated in that quote. We aren't really there, that we are essentially robots. There's different levels to it too.. patterns that we see on a daily basis or more frequently, and those that take years or decades of our lives to play out before we finally realize (if at all) that we've been a slave to programming from nature, from society, from friends and from our parents.

We can become less robotic though which involves taking a step back and examining, meditating. It's not something we can ever really escape from though because our purpose here on this planet is not for our pleasure or even spiritual growth.. we are here to reproduce and fertilize the ground with our waste and dead body. The more you pull back from that programming and also from what we consider to be ourselves (the mask we wear), the more uncomfortable we become because we are ultimately begin to realize we're not actually there at all.. that emptiness.. and that is absolutely terrifying to the mind.

For me I remember opening my eyes during an NN-DMT experience and seeing my friends in the room. Their eyes looked empty and their bodies had this polygon-esque sheath sort of hovering above their skin. I realized in that moment the idea of them being robots and even their appearance being some sort of mathematical construct that the brain/mind decodes. Years later I would read about the idea of man being a robot and the way it was written I was like "yup, that's it. that's what I saw/felt".


Interesting philosophical question.. if we are robotic by nature then how can we claim to serve justice over criminals and those who commit acts we disagree with? All the programming and experience prior to their actions lead to those actions, for which we helped shape and create. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" comes to mind here.

 

[thujone]

Experiencing it as a conscious decision IS part of the ride over which you have no control.

The more you look for yourself, the more you realise you aren't really there. At least, not in the sense of being some executive control mechanism residing in the body that decides how you're going to feel and what you're going to do. The executive, conscious function emerges out of pure automation.

Sometimes I like to see things that way, just to shift my mindset. But, like anything, it is just a mindset, just another way of looking at things. If I experienced myself as purely autonomous instead, I would have to accept full responsibility for every single thing I see and feel in the entire world; in other words, I would have to accept responsibility for the world itself, because it's an extention of my body and mind; my body and mind come from the rest of the world.

Are you talking about determinism?

 

[CosmicG]

Hmm interesting thoughts. I feel that people are who they are and can only become anything else if they truly want to become them. We can't control our lives and what happens during them, but I do believe there are certain things one can do to control the content of the thoughts they have by recognizing when they are having unwanted ones. It is difficult to completely silence the mind but when one does that is when they truly experience peace. If you can't silence your thoughts completely you can redirect them by thinking about something more positive.

I often feel like a robot. A slave to the machine. On the days that I work my body goes in auto pilot and I get a lot of things done in a very efficient way. On my days off my body wants to do nothing. It is when I have this time to think that often find myself in unwanted mental spaces. Yet I can't stand going to work and doing what I do every day, even though I am damn good at it. I have been focusing on being more mindful and aware, adding meditation back to my daily routine on my breaks. Trying to live in the moment and not obsess over what has happened or what may happen next. All this does is create unwanted anxiety and tension. Letting go and just breathing. Smelling. Listening. Absorbing the positive energy that our society is in such desperate need of. Envisioning myself spreading that vibe onto others.

We can do the best we can, but in the end as stated above we really can't control how we are going to feel and react on a day to day basis. Not in this working man society we live in today controlled by the rich. To make it in this society the majority of the human race has to be a robot. Otherwise how would we deal with the empty realization that we are not truly here, and serve no true purpose but to produce then die. Sit back and enjoy the ride by making the best of things. Laugh as much as possible. Be kind. Don't be afraid.

 

[methamaniac]

Anxiety sabotages your ability to live, and when I really look back, most of the things I used to dread came true, but I'm still alive, still breathing, so who gives a fuck?

You have to train your mind to not worry over things you are powerless over. You may know it's pointless to worry about things you can do nothing about, but stopping the worry isn't as easy as telling yourself its out of your control. You have to truly believe it. The mind is set up to be a problem solver and is always trying to figure out a way to fix/control something.
The more times you say "who gives a fuck", the easier it gets.
I am becoming a master at this. It's like my subconscious is starting to recognize powerless situations/scenarios and blocks them right out.

My problem now is when other people around me want to keep bringing up things I know are pointless to even fret over.
If only I could somehow send a subliminal message to their subconscious .....

Prehaps it would be easier to just get some ear plugs ☺

 

[Flickering]

I agree methamaniac. Cosmic Giraffe, one thing I'm trying to get at with this thread is that we have the power to stop getting frustrated at our inability to change ourselves or our lives, and that this frustration is responsible for most of our suffering, so once you do that, ironically, you transcend the things that cause you pain. You can think of our quandries of the self and its many responsibilities as something of a thought virus that has infected the human psyche en masse.

It is a tricky balance to strike at first, like anything you're not used to. Does that mean you should just say "Well I'm going to shoot up on heroin even though I said I wouldn't, because clearly I have no ability to control the things I want"? No, that's just indulging the same game from the opposite point of view. The word 'I' is still heavily tangled up in this whole thing; you're either totally responsible for everything you do, or a helpless victim to it. Neither is truly the case, both are just perceptions.

how often do you meditate?

Not as often as I'd like, or as often as I'd used to, but that's about to change, I'll have a lot more free time coming up. (He says as he spends time posting on a forum. It is a matter of habit, I admit.)

We aren't really there, that we are essentially robots. There's different levels to it too.. patterns that we see on a daily basis or more frequently, and those that take years or decades of our lives to play out before we finally realize (if at all) that we've been a slave to programming from nature, from society, from friends and from our parents.

We can become less robotic though which involves taking a step back and examining, meditating. It's not something we can ever really escape from though because our purpose here on this planet is not for our pleasure or even spiritual growth.. we are here to reproduce and fertilize the ground with our waste and dead body. The more you pull back from that programming and also from what we consider to be ourselves (the mask we wear), the more uncomfortable we become because we are ultimately begin to realize we're not actually there at all.. that emptiness.. and that is absolutely terrifying to the mind.

I agree with everything you state but with none of your reactions. This doesn't terrify me at all. If anything, it absolves me of pressure. But this just goes to show it's all a matter of how you interpret it... which in turn comes from things beyond 'your' control. There is no 'you' involved in these decisions, only higher-order decision-making processes that are emergent of much larger processes.

Are we God on automatic? I choose to see it that way. It makes perfect sense to me, there's no contradiction and nothing to be scared of. God is the fact of experience itself, which is indestructible. The automation, the program, is what you as a human body/mind are part of. Lifeforms are highly complex vessels of the absolute, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Are you talking about determinism?

That's one side of this coin. Determinism and free will do not contradict each other until you bring the imaginary self into the equation. It all depends on what you define as automatic and autonomous. The question arises "How can we have free will if we are the result of neurochemical processes?" Well, how else could you have it? Even if it isn't neurochemistry, even if we're composed of some etheric field of energy, the field of energy is still a lifecode and consciousness is compelled to obey it. Or rather, consciousness IS it.

 

[thujone]

Determinism and free will do not contradict each other

That's the beauty of it, you're free to live how you want and live without regret accepting that whatever happened was meant to happen anyway.

The question arises "How can we have free will if we are the result of neurochemical processes?"

the quantum mind is a possible explanation. if the most basic level of interactions between the subatomic particles that form the entire universe around us is the result of unpredictable decisions, then it's sensible to think that the same interactions are going on in the human brain. so what that implies is our brains have some pool of entropy available for us to tap into in order to help our conscious minds make decisions without precedent (i.e. true free will).

the reason this theory has merit is because we frequently harness ambient sources of entropy to secure communications all the time. so, given our reality, it seems pretty solid an argument that free will does in fact exist, but some of us just cling far too tightly onto the paradigms and ideas that are passed to us through the people we are in contact with.

why do we trust certain people but not others? objectively, it makes no sense at all. even if we assume x person likely has our best interest in mind, it's still entirely possible that their best intentions are shit because they're simply wrong about life. and yet, we make the decision to trust other people's opinions and use them to form our own opinions all the time. and this is how society establishes cohesion. so free will could very well exist, but it's fucked to shit because nobody really knows anything but we're all relying on each other's opinions in order to find our spot in society and preserve it.

maybe our subconscious desire to break free of the invisible shackles of society and embrace free will is the reason we seek visceral, chaotic release in the glorification of destruction. maybe that's why millions of people tune in for every single video by the slo-mo guys. it's literally just videos of things being destroyed, but the time frame is stretched out so that we can actually notice the butterfly effect in action. we're fascinated by chaos, but barriers in our brain prevent us from engaging in it in decision-making. when someone decides to ignore the barriers, is that not truly free will?