Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[swilow]

It's immoral to assume that everyone else's body has the same requirements as yours.

I wonder if 'immoral' is really the right word to use? There's actually pretty sound basis for assuming that many different human bodies function in similar ways. But I take your point; one should not use their own experience as the only truth in a given circumstance.

 

[Xorkoth]

but beans, nuts, lentils, seeds, fruits, vegetable along with all the starchy food would be enough to feed any person. I dont see why one would absolutely need to eat meat to survive. Maybe some type of people have no choice but to eat meat? im curious if this has been documented and proven as a fact.

Historically, there are a great many cultures throughout the world that had to eat meat to survive. As foreigner was saying, generally the more north you go, the less possible it is to survive without meat, except today due to globalization and shipping and industry. Arctic people eat/ate almost exclusively meat, from seals, etc. There are still a whole lot of people in the world today who have to eat meat to survive. The ability to survive without meat used to be possible only for some cultures, in tropical areas for example. Most people evolved eating meat and plants, and over many successive generations their bodies adapted to work optimally on this combination. To cut out meat in a single generation is going to have different effects on different people. Some people aren't going to respond well. For those people I think eating meat is the optimal choice for their personal health, and not just a preference.

 

[Foreigner]

I'm saying that if you live north of the 49th parallel, your year round vegetarian diet is supported by imports, which require fossil fuels and biosphere destruction to get to you. Traditionally in the colder climates they stored grain, root vegetables and cured meats to tide over through the winter. Then spring and summer was the gathering time to pickup lost nutrition and make preserves.

Going veg and then relying on a globalized economy or vitamins (which are not food) is hardly a more ethical lifestyle. If you just want to be veg then fine but acting like you're better than meat eaters is ignorant. I am way healthier now that I can procure local organic meat than I ever was as a veg, and its not like I'm even eating meat every day.

Most vegetarians I've met pick up all their protein from dairy. They eat a shit load of it, and dairy farms have horrendous practices. You're still relying on animals to get your fix, in some way or another, unless you're vegan. And frankly, people who are vegan by choice in the northern climates are ruining themselves. I'm yet to meet a raw vegan here in Canada over 30 years old who doesn't look like hell or have cognitive problems. Honest to god.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I get that, but numerous people - including you - have said that their bodies are vaguely incompatible with a vegetarian diet (which I'm not entirely convinced of)...

people who are vegan by choice in the northern climates are ruining themselves

Ignoring periods of history when import food wasn't readily available, why should north / south be an issue?

Going veg and then relying on a globalized economy or vitamins (which are not food) is hardly a more ethical lifestyle.

I don't think it's worse for the planet to produce vegetarian produce than it is to produce meat...
Being a vegetarian, you contribute to the dairy industry which isn't very far removed (if at all) from the meat industry IMO. But, at least you're not contributing to both.

If you just want to be veg then fine but acting like you're better than meat eaters is ignorant.

Again, I don't think anyone is doing that.

I wonder if 'immoral' is really the right word to use?

Yeah, I thought that too.
Immoral is the wrong word.

 

[Abject]

The way you talk about it portrays a vegan diet as being on it's own and vegetarian/omnivore being close together. From vegan friends I have, I feel as though the vegetarian diet is a stepping stone towards a vegan diet, much closer to vegan than omnivore.
The point remains that I could be perfectly healthy eating nothing but eggs and dairy, or just meat, but if I were to forego all animal product I would be in worse shape no matter what combination of plant matter I ate.

Eating vegan is one thing, but eating vegetarian (the way you talk about eggs/dairy) seems like a no mans land to me. There's no real ethical benefit over an omnivorous diet (that I can spot) whilst having the drawback of no tasty lean protein.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Vegetarianism is closer to meat consumption than veganism is, in terms of the implied contribution towards the suffering of animals... I get that vegetarianism can be a stepping stone.

if I were to forego all animal product I would be in worse shape no matter what combination of plant matter I ate

I'm not convinced that it's impossible to be just as healthy as a vegan.
It is difficult, especially when transitioning from a very different diet.
I'd, honestly, like it to be impossible... then I could justify meat.

 

[turkalurk]

I wonder if 'immoral' is really the right word to use? There's actually pretty sound basis for assuming that many different human bodies function in similar ways. But I take your point; one should not use their own experience as the only truth in a given circumstance.

How come you don't wonder if "immoral" is the right word when others have specifically said, "It is immoral to eat meat?"

Seems hypocritical.

 

[ForEverAfter]

You really need to read what you respond to a bit better, sometimes, turk....

It's immoral to assume that everyone else's body has the same requirements as yours.

^This is what willow was responding to, not "it is immoral to eat meat"... Nobody is saying the word immoral can't be used in any context, it just doesn't make much sense in the context of Foreigner's statement.

Ignorant would be a more suitable word.
Immoral doesn't make sense.

 

[murphythecat]

agree on all points

I get that, but numerous people - including you - have said that their bodies are vaguely incompatible with a vegetarian diet (which I'm not entirely convinced of)...



Ignoring periods of history when import food wasn't readily available, why should north / south be an issue?



I don't think it's worse for the planet to produce vegetarian produce than it is to produce meat...
Being a vegetarian, you contribute to the dairy industry which isn't very far removed (if at all) from the meat industry IMO. But, at least you're not contributing to both.



Again, I don't think anyone is doing that.



Yeah, I thought that too.
Immoral is the wrong word.

 

[turkalurk]

You really need to read what you respond to a bit better, sometimes, turk....



^This is what willow was responding to, not "it is immoral to eat meat".

maybe you need to read what you respond to a bit better sometimes...

I knew what he was responding to, I am suggesting that it is hypocritical for someone to be ok with "immoral" as a word choice for meat-eaters, but when a meat-eater flips it around and applies it to a fellow vegan, then he "wonders if immoral is the right word to use."

ironic, eh?

 

[ForEverAfter]

Your point is, once again, absolutely ridiculous... and I've already explained why.

Here is an example of your logic:

Woman: "I am a woman and I think rape is immoral."
Man: "I am a man and I think watching Sesame Street is immoral."
Woman: "Immoral is the wrong word."
Man: "Hypocrite!"

Whether or not immorality is an appropriate label for something doesn't dictate whether or not it is an appropriate label for something else...

If Foreigner had said "it is immoral to not eat meat", then your hypocrisy claim might make sense.
(As it stands, it is nonsense.)

ironic, eh?

No. What I meant by you need to read what you respond to "better" is: you clearly need to take some time to comprehend what you read rather than having knee-jerk reactions.

 

[turkalurk]

Your point is, once again, absolutely ridiculous... and I've already explained why.

Here is an example of your logic:

Woman: "I am a woman and I think rape is immoral."
Man: "I am a man and I think watching Sesame Street is immoral."
Woman: "Immoral is the wrong word."
Man: "Hypocrite!"

Whether or not immorality is an appropriate label for something doesn't dictate whether or not it is an appropriate label for something else...

If Foreigner had said "it is immoral to not eat meat", then your hypocrisy claim might make sense.
(As it stands, it is nonsense.)



No. What I meant by you need to read what you respond to "better" is: you clearly need to take some time to comprehend what you read rather than having knee-jerk reactions.

Wow, dude, really? I don't think you understand. To me, it is just as ridiculous to claim that eating meat is inherently immoral as it would be to say watching Sesame street is immoral. The fact that you equate meat eating to rape, further illustrates my point.

 

[ebola?]

Vegetarianism is closer to meat consumption than veganism is, in terms of the implied contribution towards the suffering of animals... I get that vegetarianism can be a stepping stone.

I think it depends on how you practice vegetarianism. Yeah, having a cheese and egg based diet isn't going to be a whole lot better, due to the factory farming load (though the plant calorie to animal calorie conversion rate is a whole lot more efficient with eggs and dairy (~3:1) than with meat (~10:1)). I, for one, get more protein from legumes than eggs and dairy (being a cheesitarian isn't too healthy ).

 

[murphythecat]

I think it depends on how you practice vegetarianism. Yeah, having a cheese and egg based diet isn't going to be a whole lot better, due to the factory farming load (though the plant calorie to animal calorie conversion rate is a whole lot more efficient with eggs and dairy (~3:1) than with meat (~10:1)). I, for one, get more protein from legumes than eggs and dairy (being a cheesitarian isn't too healthy ).

however, getting eggs from free range chicken begins to be much more acceptable and may be the best option. I will make the switch and get those eggs asap.

I agree very much that getting dairy product is as disgusting as eating meat. the way the cows lives is as inhuman as the meat farms. Before this thread, I wasnt as aware at the problem of diary product and the conditions. I may reconsider my intake in dairy product honestly.

protein source is available in seeds and nuts and beans so easily that you clearly dont need meat to have enough protein per day though.

 

[swilow]

How come you don't wonder if "immoral" is the right word when others have specifically said, "It is immoral to eat meat?"

Seems hypocritical.

How do you know I don't think that? Are you making your fantastical assumptions again turk? I thought you'd given up.

maybe you need to read what you respond to a bit better sometimes...

I knew what he was responding to, I am suggesting that it is hypocritical for someone to be ok with "immoral" as a word choice for meat-eaters, but when a meat-eater flips it around and applies it to a fellow vegan, then he "wonders if immoral is the right word to use."

ironic, eh?

I'm sorry but where have I, even once, said that meat eating is immoral? I don't believe such a thing and I haven't said it.

Again though, you seem to respond to things that you imagine a vegetarian would believe rather then what they actual profess belief in.

 

[Xorkoth]

Aren't there certain proteins that are only found in meat? Not all protein is equal, it's not just a single thing, it's a bunch of different proteins and they serve different functions.

 

[One Thousand Words]

I'm currently eating a grass fed steak and duck fat roast potatoes.

Fucking delicious.

 

[swilow]

Aren't there certain proteins that are only found in meat? Not all protein is equal, it's not just a single thing, it's a bunch of different proteins and they serve different functions.

I think the proteins in meat are more 'complete'. To get the same profile from vegetables you require a combination of produce.

 

[ForEverAfter]

it is just as ridiculous to claim that eating meat is inherently immoral as it would be to say watching Sesame street is immoral.

It may be just as ridiculous, in your mind, but it doesn't qualify as hypocritical. Even if they are both ridiculous, they are different - unrelated - statements that have no bearing on each other.

The fact that you equate meat eating to rape, further illustrates my point.

I don't equate eating meat with rape. My hypothetical implies no such thing.
(Research the functionality of parallel hypothetical terms, if you don't believe me.)

Here's an example:

When a child says that it's not fair that they can't go to a Marilyn Manson concert because "everyone is going" and their father lays down that old adage, "If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?", he is not equating the concert with suicide. It is an intentionally extreme example to illustrate the flaw in logic. Essentially: you cannot dictate behavior based on the behavior of others.

The flaw in your logic that I was trying to illustrate with the rape / Sesame street example is similar but that, again, doesn't imply - in any way - that rape is comparable to the consumption of animal products... For someone who's studied philosophy, and claims - therefore - to have a better understanding of logic and reason than most people, you appear to be seriously lacking in basic comprehensive skills...

Although I suspect you're just being antagonistic.

 

[turkalurk]

How do you know I don't think that? Are you making your fantastical assumptions again turk? I thought you'd given up.



I'm sorry but where have I, even once, said that meat eating is immoral? I don't believe such a thing and I haven't said it.

Again though, you seem to respond to things that you imagine a vegetarian would believe rather then what they actual profess belief in.

again, you make your own assumptions. read the quote again and you will see where I didn't say you said it. I said others have said this, and I have took issue with it. You can't change the sequence of events. In response to my criticisms of the absolutist claims made by Murphy, you have been trying to dispute my claims against this particular fundamentalist perspective, while applying it as a general criticism of all vegetarians. With every step I have tried to explain what my argument was and how it is not a criticism of a vegan lifestyle, and was certainly not meant to be applied as the opposite absolutist claim against a vegetarian lifestyle.

It seems you would rather respond to the things that you imagine I say, instead of reading what I have actually been telling you this entire time. As I said, you say these hypocritical things without any indication that you are applying them to your own behavior.