Rumoured UK blanket RC ban

[Sammy G]

Yes, but the reason the Home Office is even looking at new legislation is because vendors are immediately able to offer alternatives to anything banned. So I fail to see the relevency to hte current topic.

Erm, isn't that kinda directly relevant? As relevant as can be, in fact?

Spice was circulating & banned before even meph came along, if my memory serves me.

And was Spice as popular, sensationalised or as controversial as meph?

Plenty of other compounds were available. I don't see how that affects the fact that it was the meph boom that introduced the term 'legal high' into the tabloid lexicon.

The point is, the Home Office has dragged their feet despite it being perfectly clear that banning individual compounds or even small groups of compounds does not harm the market. This potential new legislation is not anywhere near as simple as the Home Office make out in the link you provide & I've seen nothing to counter my assumption that the complicated nature of any new legislation is what's probably delaying it.

It's relatively quick & easy to ban new compounds under the governments Temporary Control Orders that's why the Temporary Control Order legislation was introduced, because goverment needed a quick & easy way to target potentially dangerous new drugs. If it was "quick & easy" to introduce some sort of analogue act for the UK, they would have done it rather than introduce the TCDO.

Si, Parliament is due to be dissolved in four days' time, and TDCOs aren't as straightforward as you appear to think:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/98006/temporary-class-drug-factsheet.pdf

the Home Secretary may make a temporary class drug order if:
1. the drug is not already controlled under the Act (as a Class A, B or C); and

2. the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has been consulted and determined
that the order should be made, or the Home Secretary has received a
recommendation from the Advisory Council that the order should be made, on the
basis that it appears to the Home Secretary that:

a. the drug is being, or is likely to be, misused ; and
b. misuse is having, or is capable of having, harmful effects

And we'll recap the quote you appear to have overlooked:

I will be working right up until the dissolution of Parliament to ensure we have done as much as we possibly can to pave the way for a general ban. This will mean the next government can act quickly to clamp down on this reckless trade.

 

[Shambles]

That ^ does not look like paranoia to me Shambs...

Nor me. There is perhaps a reasonable argument could be made for me keeping up with the news a little (or a lot) more than I do. I mostly don't find it very newsworthy (the news, I mean) but occasionally things that exist in Newsworld also cross over into the rest of the world so if probably worth a lil gander now and then

Rather than a blanket ban, I think the single thing most likely to reduce the availability of & harm by RCs would be to stop them being sold anywhere except the internet. Having dangerously powerful, ill-researched cannabinoiids available to punters on the day, on the High Street is a recipe for disaster.

Since when has any drug policy had anything to do with reducing availability and harm?

I have some sympathy for your thoughts on the headshop end of the NPS spectrum - shelves of shiny packages filled with identical-looking white powder differentiated only by the relative shininess and pretty colours of said gaudy packaging and with the only possible hint of what the effect of the contents may be given by the moronic brand name given... all of these are horrid but the most serious concern and problem here - by a very long way - is that the shop staff, product manufacturers and product packaging are all strictly prohibited from including any suggestion of what the product does, what constitutes a dose, what constitutes and overdose, what special precautions need be taken that are specific to this particular product (drug interactions and so forth) - basically all the absolute bare minimum basic HR info that even the most idiotic of idiots could at least theoretically manage to read before hoofing the entire contents in one and hoping for the best.

Same as with any other area of the drug supply market - proper regulation of a legal supply saves lives and greatly reduces other harms associated with their manufacture, distribution and use. Anything other than that is either ineffectual or makes the problem worse in my opinion.

 

[Eveleivibe]

That ^ does not look like paranoia to me Shambs...



Never say never! It could happen, but like you, I don't see it. Such legislation would render most food supplements illegal overnight & close every Holland & Barrett & other health food store just as quickly. If you assume that any psychoactive compound not tea, coffee, alcohol or tobacco would be banned, it's byebye St Johns Wort, byebye 5-htp, byebye damned near everything that isn't over-the-counter or prescription only. The logistical & bureaurcratic requirements simply to stop High Street head-shops from vending RC's is so problematic alone, that it has not been implemented despite years & years of bad publicity.

Rather than a blanket ban, I think the single thing most likely to reduce the availability of & harm by RCs would be to stop them being sold anywhere except the internet. Having dangerously powerful, ill-researched cannabinoiids available to punters on the day, on the High Street is a recipe for disaster. I would be the last to complain if I saw a High Street ban of Legal Highs & RCs.

I hope not. I get a lotta stuff from Holland n Barret.

Evey

 

[Sammy G]

It's not gonna happen, Evey. Just Si on the soapbox again.

This ban proposes to target New Psychoactive Substances (NPS). Not Saint Bleedin' John's Wort.

 

[Si Dread]

and problem here - by a very long way - is that the shop staff, product manufacturers and product packaging are all strictly prohibited from including any suggestion of what the product does, what constitutes a dose, what constitutes and overdose, what special precautions need be taken that are specific to this particular product (drug interactions and so forth) - basically all the absolute bare minimum basic HR info that even the most idiotic of idiots could at least theoretically manage to read before hoofing the entire contents in one and hoping for the best.

People who buy their RCs on the internet are slightly more likely to have gauged a dosage range & have a rough idea of effects in a way that an off-the-street buyer might not have done...

But I agree, if vendors & anyone else selling RCs either on the net or on the High Street were able to offer dosage & effects advice, we'd all be a helluva lot safer...

 

[Shambles]

People who buy their RCs on the internet are slightly more likely to have gauged a dosage range & have a rough idea of effects in a way that an off-the-street buyer might not have done...

I would agree but it seems like such an obvious and easy way to do something about the absolute basics. Some fella wanders into a headshop and buys the first three random baggies. Staff know that taking any two together should be fine but combining all three will very possibly lead to serious risk of harm (this is a very real scenario within very recent memory - think of the Serotonin Syndrome risks associated with aMT and some of the other serotoninny products available concurrently). As this stand that staff member could be prosecuted or at the very least lose their job if they tell the punter this (and I do believe "undercover stings" do occur only from trading standards and local council folks rather than plod).

The range of dosages of even bogstandard stims is very wide - what if a punter picks up a gramme pack each of camfetamine 3,4-CTMP? (Both having ben given stupid names involving words like "Snow" "Ice" and so forth - and both probably cut with lidocaine... how much is anybody's guess, of course) There is clealry a very simple step that could be inserted here that could potentially save that person's life... but it would be illegal to take the step of "reminding" the punter that the latter product contains around 200 doses despite it being the same volume as the other, far, far less potent product bought so take extra caution when weighing it. Maybe even get the added bonus of selling said punter a set of mg scales too.

They don't have headshops around these parts afaik, they do have folk who buy in bulk online to sell to people who don't read up at all online though. Those people make a great deal of profit and can rarely even name the substance they're selling beyond "it's just like valium innit" or "fukkin rhino ket, mate". I would imagine this kinda set-up is pretty common and would even suggest it is far more common than people who frequent sites like BL and are essentially drug nerds anyway.

 

[Si Dread]

I would agree but it seems like such an obvious and easy way to do something about the absolute basics. Some fella wanders into a headshop and buys the first three random baggies. Staff know that taking any two together should be fine but combining all three will very possibly lead to serious risk of harm (this is a very real scenario within very recent memory - think of the Serotonin Syndrome risks associated with aMT and some of the other serotoninny products available concurrently). As this stand that staff member could be prosecuted or at the very least lose their job if they tell the punter this (and I do believe "undercover stings" do occur only from trading standards and local council folks rather than plod).

In most cases Shambs, regardless of the law, the vendor would not allow the punter to leave the premises without the relevant information. That would be an unscrupulous vendor of course, if you're from the Daily Mail viewpoint...

The range of dosages of even bogstandard stims is very wide - what if a punter picks up a gramme pack each of camfetamine 3,4-CTMP? (Both having ben given stupid names involving words like "Snow" "Ice" and so forth - and both probably cut with lidocaine... how much is anybody's guess, of course) There is clealry a very simple step that could be inserted here that could potentially save that person's life... but it would be illegal to take the step of "reminding" the punter that the latter product contains around 200 doses despite it being the same volume as the other, far, far less potent product bought so take extra caution when weighing it. Maybe even get the added bonus of selling said punter a set of mg scales too.

Some sort of basic regulation to prevent that sort of stupid buying/selling, again, would make us all alot safer. The legislation planned for NZ looked just like this, but as soon as it was passed, NZ government used the law to blanket ban all Legal Highs.

They don't have headshops around these parts afaik, they do have folk who buy in bulk online to sell to people who don't read up at all online though. Those people make a great deal of profit and can rarely even name the substance they're selling beyond "it's just like valium innit" or "fukkin rhino ket, mate". I would imagine this kinda set-up is pretty common and would even suggest it is far more common than people who frequent sites like BL and are essentially drug nerds anyway.

Misrepresentation is a product of illegality & grey area drugs use, such as is the topic of this discussion. If grey area drugs weren't so cheap compared to black market drugs, & so much more widely available, this danger would be reduced or removed.

In time, it would be nice if the RC genie could get back in it's bottle & leave true RC's to true Psychonauts (drug nerds). But since when has any genie ever got back in it's bottle? Genies comes out of bottles, they don't do back. Don't matter how you shake it out, the RC world is here to stay now.

... & I'm not on any soapbox Sammy, I just exagerate for effect. It's for fun, & for impact. It's not literal!

 

[Sammy G]

In time, it would be nice if the RC genie could get back in it's bottle & leave true RC's to true Psychonauts (drug nerds).

I'd rather all drugs were banned than breathe the same sententious air as somebody who would willingly describe themselves as a 'true psychonaut' or a 'drug nerd' with a straight face.

 

[bummer]

@ si

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. But if you're seriously suggesting that people buying legal highs from head shops get advice on how to safely use them then the head shops round your way must be far classier than any I've ever visited

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I'd rather all drugs were banned than breathe the same sententious air as somebody who would willingly describe themselves as a 'true psychonaut' or a 'drug nerd' with a straight face.

Trouble with using the word sententious Sammy is it makes you look, erm, pompous? Just saying.

As for vendors...anyone remember the poor bastard from early meph days, when it was still legal, who sold it AND made a web page telling people how to use it safely. Pretty sure he did time for that.

 

[Sammy G]

Sententious is a word I'd use in my local boozer. Perhaps we move in different circles, a chara.

 

[Shambles]

In most cases Shambs, regardless of the law, the vendor would not allow the punter to leave the premises without the relevant information.

With the best will in the world, there is no possible way for you to be in a position to make this claim. All the vendors I've known have been lovely chaps (well, with one or two exceptions maybe) and it is true that as far as online vendors go there will often be a difference between what is said publicly and what may be said privately via more direct means of communication with trusted clients. The (very) few physical headshops I've ever been to have been uniformly clueless and have never (as far as I recall anyway) been able to provide any information on "safe" dosing and rarely even be able to provide any real info whatsoever beyond "yeah, it's just like coke that stuff" and the like. Obviously my experience will be very limited so I would not claim that the same is true of "most cases" as I could not possibly know this

Misrepresentation is a product of illegality & grey area drugs use, such as is the topic of this discussion. If grey area drugs weren't so cheap compared to black market drugs, & so much more widely available, this danger would be reduced or removed.

I'm not quite sure what point you are making here. Surely ignorance (cos it's never deliberate misrepresentation of a malicious nature in my experience at least) is a product of folk not being arsed to do a bit of research on whatever it is they are using and/or selling, no? Same thing applies to people who deal in traditional illegals too - "fukkin rhino ket, mate" is hardly an exclusive claim made by folk selling MXE without having read up enough to even be able to reliably get the abbreviated letters in the correct order every time if asked. Actual ketamine dealers were using that line - and believing it to be true in many cases - for a long time before MXE was ever created. Has nothing to do with cost or availability it has to do with attitudes and lack of basic information being widely available.

In time, it would be nice if the RC genie could get back in it's bottle & leave true RC's to true Psychonauts (drug nerds).

This is a common enough call but I gotta say it makes me really rather uncomfortable. I really don't like the elitest overtones implicit in it. It suggests that certain types of people are inherently superior whilst those ghastly plebs beneath just keep spoiling the genteel and rarefied air we Psychonauts (disclaimer: I'd lop off my own ball before ever calling myself a "psychonaut" with a straight face) enjoy up here where things are just peachy. I think such attitudes create a false sense of security as the exclutivity implied suggests that Bad Things only happen to those not kewl enough to be in the Kewl Psychonaut Klub (Affiliated With Drug Nerds R Us). I also think it's just plain wanky but that's probably less of a HR concern.

 

[Si Dread]

@ si

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. But if you're seriously suggesting that people buying legal highs from head shops get advice on how to safely use them then the head shops round your way must be far classier than any I've ever visited

I've never bought an RC from a headshop, & never bought a Legal High, ever, from anywhere. But I have seen plenty of news pieces written & on telly that point out how many head shop owners break the law by giving dosage advice on drugs that are "not for human consumption". But your point's valid. There are also about a million pubs quite happy selling booze to obviously drunk individuals, & I think that's illegal too. But anyway, yeah, I'm sure there are also plenty of unscrupulous headhops.

I'm still not sure I get why anyone would take any drugs, regardles of how flashy the packaging or how legal the drug, without thoroughly rsearching the substance in question. I just am not sure I get why anyone would do that. Seems kinda dumb.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Elitist or not, ya gotta admit that there's a world of difference between someone who takes the time to research whatever substance they're buying to find out dosage, effects, HR etc. and the chav in the pub that buys a random white powder and boshes a load of it because he's used to UK 'speed' and 'coke' and ends up face down in a pond...

 

[Si Dread]

ah *edit* a point I made much less succinctly & less funnily, at the bottom of this post.

With the best will in the world, there is no possible way for you to be in a position to make this claim.

Agreed lol

I'm not quite sure what point you are making here.

Nor me...

This is a common enough call but I gotta say it makes me really rather uncomfortable. I really don't like the elitest overtones implicit in it. It suggests that certain types of people are inherently superior whilst those ghastly plebs beneath just keep spoiling the genteel and rarefied air we Psychonauts (disclaimer: I'd lop off my own ball before ever calling myself a "psychonaut" with a straight face) enjoy up here where things are just peachy. I think such attitudes create a false sense of security as the exclutivity implied suggests that Bad Things only happen to those not kewl enough to be in the Kewl Psychonaut Klub (Affiliated With Drug Nerds R Us). I also think it's just plain wanky but that's probably less of a HR concern.

I'm not in the slightest bit concerned abot being called or calling myself a psychonaut. I'd be prety mortified if I was described as a "pub-goer" though...

I'm not trying to be cool, couldn't give a fuck. But I think if the kinda person who buys random chems & necks them & dies of dumb is also the sort of person who gets their shit from headshops, it might be a good idea to try to sperate them from dangerous or ill-researched new chemicals & leave dangerous or ill-researched new chems to people who know what the words "titrate" & "therapuetic index" mean. The average dick-head 6-pints-a-night sort of drugs user, the one I'm really happy to distance myself from even at the risk of looking elitist or "cool", is probably safer with the drugs we all know & love. I say this out of some strange, misplaced urge to help maintain the dick heads health & life...

Wanky IS an HR concern.

 

[Dark Side]

Best off not touching the RC benzo's full stop and spending more money on the real benzo's purely due to the fact when you go the doctors with your inevitable habit; they will actually know wtf you're taking. For example My doctor didn't know what kratom was an neither did this key worker i seen today.

It's only the gold standards the NHS recovery system is designed around, not chinese lab stuff and not shit like kratom. Gold standard opies and benzo's

 

[Eveleivibe]

I didn't think kratom was a benzo.

Evey

 

[Dark Side]

I didnt say that did i, i just used it as an example of a weird substance that a doctor isnt gonna have a clue about.

You're dealing with a system at the end of the day, if its out side that system there not going to know what to do with you. Prime example was a thread someone made here the other week about heavy RC benzo use, he came up negative for benzo's on piss tests and the health service didn't seem to believe him.

You lot seem to forget you're an extreme minority abusing these RC substances.

That hope you got for a good doctor, that just delusional addict thinking right there i had that when i went to the docs about 2 weeks back. I left the doc's with no script, no opies, no kratom and had to get my dad to get me a pack of pain killers.

 

[Si Dread]

You lot seem to forget you're an extreme minority abusing these RC substances.

You "proper" drugs users are obviously all labouring under the delusion that you are all taking "proper" drugs which are in fact, after all, riddled with RCs

 

[Pagey]

No chance. There's no realistic way to write legislation to achieve that goal without fucking with stuff they actually want left unfucked with (like legitimate medical research which is a big industry in the UK). If it were at all feasible we would not get legislation in dribs and drabs - nor get engaged in interminable EU debates in which "we" (UK government) are arguing against blanket ban-type approaches to such legistalton for precisely that reason. We have far too many vested interests to go messing with 'em for the sake of a few kiddies ODing on shonky powders.

Just another baseless rumour that's been circulating for donkey's years but has never been based on anything beyond paranoia - can't imagine how such things could ever coincide

Touché Shambles. We were talking to the owner of a legal highs shop the other day who said they can't sell etiz on RC websites anymore anywhere in the UK now because it's being made a medicine in Italy, ie. it affects all of the EU. There's never going to be a blanket ban because this sort of thing is going to happen once in a while - some of these legal highs may be used as legit medicines.
Also, how dyou define a legal high, a research chemical....are we talking a blanket ban on all chemicals that affect the brain?

Most importantly, how the hell would this be implemented?

They're doing it slowly mind you, with stuff like PV, aMT, AH, but they're never going to catch up with the RC chemists out there and manage a blanket ban. No way.