Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[Ninae]

if those are your basic premises, then your arguments are weak and seem to support the case I have been making as none of them can generally be assumed to be true as demonstrated through these debates. Its circular logic to restate your opinion without any support that your premises are true. Furthermore, you neglect that most egoic tendencies that inflate one's ego and sense of self worth are done without being consciously aware of the underlying motivations, so you also assume people are always aware of why they behave a certain way or believe the things they believe.

Don't you realise you're not even saying anything and just using standard ready-made arguments you think sound good. Pure semantics.

 

[turkalurk]

in buddhism, the ego is a illusion. the sense of self is created but not true objectively.

believing ego is all there is? what do you mean?
ego is constructed with memories, thoughts, ect. its only a construction, and totally impermanent.
maybe taoist is different though

Perception is inherently allusive because it is an indirect subjective experiencing of reality and not reality itself. It is "our" reality. Perceiving the Ego as a seperate and distinct self is what creates an allusion of a seperate and distinct identity. This identification of the concept of self(inner being) with Ego(personality attached to a body) is the illusion. The concept of individuality is a functional and natural part of who we are, but we are much more than the sum of our body parts. We are much more than a piece of humanity because we are not seperate from humanity. I am human, and together we are humanity for better or worse. no better, no worse. Therefore, as an invidual with limited energy, my energy should focus on my personal relationship with inner truth, and not so much on projecting myself into a godly(objective) perspective. Such endeavors can be exhausting. I have found great wisdom in the Tao Te Ching, but I do not pretend to be some great sage that can always utilize wisdom by applying it to all of my decisions. I can only be happy in knowing I am giving it my genuine effort to be who I am, and live my life in a way that I can appreciate for myself.

 

[turkalurk]

Don't you realise you're not even saying anything and just using standard ready-made arguments you think sound good. Pure semantics.

don't you see you are avoiding the argument altogether and waving your conclusions around as if they have been supported in the least. Why should I put much effort into debating you when it is clear you are not being rational? When you can start with some basic premises we can agree with, then I will oblige you with an adequate rebuttal.

 

[turkalurk]

Taoist Ethics

By Bill Mason

Selflessness
Moderation
Embracing the Mystery
Non-Contrivance
Detachment
Humility

Portions of this essay is derived from The Tao of Inner Peace by Diane Dreher. I highly recommend this book for the way it beautifully divides the Tao Te Ching into principles and ways to live.

Through the four basic principles of nature, there are several derived ethical suggestions which make up the bulk of the Tao Te Ching. The unique thing about the Taoist approach to ethics is that they aren't designed to preach to people about how to live. They're simply a description of what certain behaviors produce, when applied to these four principles.

It's sort of like wondering why your foot hurts but then you find out that you stabbed yourself in your foot with a nail. The Tao Te Ching wouldn't say, "thou shalt not stab thy foot with thy nail," it would say, "if you stab yourself in the foot with a nail, your foot is going to hurt!" This may seem like common sense, but you'd be surprised just how easily everyone violates the principles of nature.

Selflessness

One thing basic to the Taoist belief is a redefinition of "self" or "ego." Taoists believe that the way we try to stand outside ourselves in the attempt of self-observation is the source of most, if not all, of our unhappiness and loneliness, simply because in order to observe as such, we must see our "self" as separate from other "selves." This creates many unnecessary and troublesome illusions, and is based on an untrue assumption: that organisms are mutually exclusive. For a good argument against this assumption, as well as some of the negative affects of the illusions it creates, it is recommended that you read The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts.

The goal of Taoism isn't to obliterate the ego, simply because this isn't possible. In order to stop ourselves from seeing ourselves as separate, we must see ourselves as separate, which creates a never-ending paradox. The goal instead is to keep our attention on the greater whole, the process to which there is a pattern, which is known to always return the source.

The Tao is infinite, eternal. Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings. The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled.

- Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation), Chapter 7

Moderation

Limitations are everywhere. Even if you were convinced by science fiction that some day, humans will conquer nature, and we will no longer be subject to its limitations (which is logically impossible), think of all the other limitations you're given from day to day: rules imposed by society, parents, and your nation. Even if you pick and choose which rules to obey, you're still left to deal with the consequences. Limitations are unavoidable.

Freedom resides in the recognition of limitations. In knowing how far you're able to reach, you'll have perfect freedom to choose just how far within that range to reach. The ideal of unlimited freedom is an illusion. Maximum freedom is experienced when one is in the middle between the upper bound and lower bound limitations, in other words, moderation. Then one has the maximum range in which to alter his behavior. This is the Taoist ethic of freedom through moderation.

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people's approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity.

- Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation), Chapter 9

Embracing the Mystery

Fear is a basic inate feature of living things. It is what allows the "fight or flight" response. By being afraid, one keeps himself away from danger. However, by humbling yourself with the knowledge that you are a part of nature, you know that you have to rely on nature for your needs. Not everything can be "out to get you," and, in fact, most of our fear reactions are overreactions.

Despite all we know of nature, through science and art and living, there are still many things which we don't know. How could we? We only have a brain a few cubic centimeters in volume. How could we store the knowledge of everything about nature? The truth is, we've stored only those things which help us to survive in nature, with perhaps a few added goodies which enable us with the potential to enjoy a happy life and pursue our own dreams and aspirations.

But what of all the things we don't know? That's what religion is for, right? Well, despite what you may claim is true or not true, despite all your opinions and biases, beliefs and disbeliefs, the Universe is still a great mystery to you, and much of life is taken up with coping with this mystery. Living your life in an environment which you know nothing about. No wonder why we're so scared!

But Taoists take a different approach. Taoists embrace the mystery. They enjoy every confusion and misunderstanding and mysterious thing they see, because to them, life is a game, and games, as you know, aren't fun without both the possibility of winning and the equal possibility of losing. Mystery is what makes games fun, and to Taoists, mystery is what makes life fun.

For this reason, Taoists still retain their basic innate fear. As Lao Tzu put it, "they were careful, as someone crossing an iced-over stream," yet "Receptive as a valley, clear as a glass of water." They balance their fear with their curiousity to seek the true potential of their existence. They look within themselves and see all that they don't understand, and they like it that way. Because they're centered in the Tao, they don't need to worry about that which they don't understand.

The Master keeps her mind always at one with the Tao; that is what gives her her radiance. The Tao is ungraspable. How can her mind be at one with it? Because she doesn't cling to ideas. The Tao is dark and unfathomable. How can it make her radiant? Because she lets it. Since before time and space were, the Tao is. It is beyond is and is not. How do I know this is true? I look inside myself and see.

- Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation), Chapter 21

Non-Contrivance

As I said above, the Tao Te Ching doesn't preach. At most it describes the results of various behaviors, based on the four basic principles of nature. However, it goes on to warn against those who preach, or try to tell you how to live. It warns against contrived, or consciously manipulated morality.

Because nature is dynamic, and contrived morals are stiff, contrived morals go against nature. Furthermore, the purpose for these morals are usually not better living, but greater control, either for yourself or for others. By dictating your morals, other people feel a sense of control over your life, and its no different just because you dictate your own morals. The bottom line is that whether you're living better or not has no bearing on morality, only if your more controlled. Nature is not something that can be controlled; it controls itself. You needn't impose your control on it, or let others impose their control on you.

Perhaps an example would help here. Several years ago, I worked at a pizza place. I was a great worker, did everything I was told, and did it as efficiently as I knew how. I was very open to constructive criticism, and I was constantly trying to improve my job skills. One day, I had to pick up my mother from work and bring her home before I went to work. I got into work just in time, but I wasn't in my uniform yet. I changed as quickly as I could and reported to my manager at 6:03p.m. She asked me, "what time is it?" I said, "around six o'clock." She yelled, "what time is it?!" I repeated my answer. She told me to look at the clock. I returned and said, "it's six o' three mam." She proceeded to scold me for being late to work. When I tried to explain, she yelled at me to shut up. So I quit. I use this as an example because there was nothing of substantial value I could have done in those three minutes. She scolded me not because I have caused problems but because I broke the grand moral, "thou shalt not be late for work."

If you want to be a great leader, you must learn to follow the Tao. Stop trying to control. Let go of fixed plans and concepts, and the world will govern itself. The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be. The more weapons you have, the less secure people will be. The more subsidies you have, the less self-reliant people will be. Therefore the Master says: I let go of the law, and people become honest. I let go of economics, and people become prosperous. I let go of religion, and people become serene. I let go of all desire for the common good, and the good becomes common as grass.

- Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation), Chapter 57

Detachment

Because there are two polarities overriding all existence, to attach to one or the other would be to misunderstand them. By nature, they are inseparable. To have one, you implicitly have the other. Therefore the Tao Te Ching often teaches detachment.

Attachment can come in several forms, just as the yin and yang come in several forms. You can be attached to knowledge from the knowledge/ignorance polarity. You can be attached to life from the life/death polarity. You can be attached to action from the action/non-action polarity. The most general of all, you can be attached to the being, or manifestation, in the being/non-being polarity.

The Tao Te Ching teaches that learning is a part of life, but what you learn doesn't belong to you. To attach to your learning as your own, strutting your stuff and trying to scare people with your big concepts, or to even think that your knowledge is all that important, is to misunderstand the knowledge. In such a game, knowledge becomes a prize, and ignorance is the enemy.

The Tao Te Ching teaches that life and death are cycles of nature. One day something is allowed to live, the next day it dies. One thing lives at the expense of another, and this creates a chain of dependence of one species upon another. This is neither bad nor good, it just is. The goal of all species is to survive, but only as a part of the living/dying game. To attach to life and fear death is to misunderstand life. Life is a cycle, not a grand victory or grand loss.

The Puritan work ethic is prevalent in Western thought. Work, work, work. Laziness, by this way of thinking, is the enemy. The Tao Te Ching teaches that playing gives purpose to work, and work gives perspective to playing. Furthermore, as everything else, they go in cycles. Lao Tzu warned that anything excessive will lead to its excessive opposite. Thus, by preaching that everyone work excessively, the Puritan work ethic is actually creating laziness and excessive playing. People seek more and more exciting forms of play: drive-by shootings, all-night parties with kegs and every drug known to mankind, promiscuous sex, etc. By detaching, you allow yourself to live in moderation.

In the most general sense, all of these can be summed up as the battle between having and not having, being and not being, existing and not existing. The frantic struggle to control and possess more and more things (being, or manifestation), and eliminate lack, misfortune and emptiness (non-being). The struggle, of course, is what makes life fun, but without the thing to be struggled against, there is no struggle. Therefore, the Tao Te Ching teaches to honor the enemy, to humble yourself in knowing that you'll never win, but that doesn't mean to quit playing, it just means to play with honor and fairness. To use the game analogy, it means to not pull a .64 magnum on your opponent in the middle of a monopoly game.

Empty your mind of all thoughts. Let your heart be at peace. Watch the turmoil of beings, but contemplate their return. Each separate being in the universe returns to the common source. Returning to the source is serenity. If you don't realize the source, you stumble in confusion and sorrow. When you realize where you come from, you naturally become tolerant, disinterested, amused, kindhearted as a grandmother, dignified as a king. Immersed in the wonder of the Tao, you can deal with whatever life brings you, and when death comes, you are ready.

- Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation), Chapter 16

Humility

"Congratulations! You just won! What are you going to do now? ... I'm going to Disneyland." This is a classic Disneyland commercial that most people have heard before. You know, whenever someone does something outstanding, they're what they're going to do next, and they would reply that they're going to Disneyland.

The proper question is, what else is there to do? No one is going to play trumpets for you and have the whole world bow. You'll get a bit of recognition no matter what you succeed at, but you can't expect too much. Disneyland happened to believe the best thing for someone to do once they've succeeded at something is to go to Disneyland. Lao Tzu would agree.

Humility means doing your job with detachment from the outcome. It means to commit yourself from moment to moment, all that it takes. Success happens every moment you do this; it's not something that only happens when you have no more to do. Actually, that's the time that you've stopped succeeding, and, of course, the time to go to Disneyland.

The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao. Because he believes in himself, he doesn't try to convince others. Because he is content with himself, he doesn't need others' approval. Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him.

- Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation), Chapter 30

 

[Ninae]

Don't you know when to quit?

 

[turkalurk]

Don't you know when to quit?

Don't you?

 

[swilow]

Turk you have made assumptions about me as a person, my ideals,etc. At least I've only responded and criticised to the content of your writings. The second you attack a person you don't know, you lose.

You actually raise some good points that i will certainly think about and i apologise if I've not been fair to you.

I'll not continue engaging you. I suggest u do the same as it ruins the discussion.

 

[turkalurk]

Turk you have made assumptions about me as a person, my ideals,etc. At least I've only responded and criticised to the content of your writings. The second you attack a person you don't know, you lose.

You actually raise some good points that i will certainly think about and i apologise if I've not been fair to you.

I'll not continue engaging you. I suggest u do the same as it ruins the discussion.

we all have been making assumptions, and we are all free to debate the validity of such assumptions. If my assumptions are wrong, show me where I have been mistaken. Don't just assume my assumptions are ungrounded.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Furthermore, I find it odd how many of the vegetarians have expressed a lack of ability to empathize with their opposition which contradicts their claims of being these uber-compassionate people, and reinforces my criticism of the underlying smug narcissism motivating their behavior.

fine, lets hear your argument on how narcissic it is for someone to stop eating meat, not because he doesnt like meat, but because he cares on the well being of animals and the damage meat farms have on the environment.

^You going to answer this, turk?

1. Who claimed to be "uber-compassionate", on this thread / website?
(tip: don't use "uber" in English sentences).

2. If you fail to empathize with slave owners does that make you smug or narcissistic?
If not, why? Shouldn't it, according to your ridiculous logic?

3. Minoring or majoring in philosophy seems to invariably make people think can out-argue other people's philosophical positions... The only reason I can see that you're so invested in countering the vegetarian argument, is the (repressed) guilt you feel... Either that, or you're upset because you got rejected by Ninae... What am I missing?

...

Its about ego because it elevates your sense of self. It often inflates one's ego to feel they are promoting a good cause.

You appear to not understand the word ego, unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.
According to your logic, what, all good deeds are egotistical? (That's stupid.)

 

[ebola?]

Let's not go about basing our arguments on putative motives we suspect of those with whom we disagree; it's gotten us nowhere so far.

Minoring or majoring in philosophy seems to invariably make people think can out-argue other people's philosophical positions...

Discussion of our mutual credentials is also similarly irrelevant. I know that Turk started it, but you didn't need to take the bait.

ebola

 

[swilow]

we all have been making assumptions, and we are all free to debate the validity of such assumptions. If my assumptions are wrong, show me where I have been mistaken. Don't just assume my assumptions are ungrounded.

Sorry, do you know me? If not your assumptions about me are ungrounded.

Stop this man. You are not helping yourself here.

 

[Mysterie]

arent assumptions by their nature ungrounded.

to assume something is to speculate without any basis of evidence

 

[ebola?]

Yet no investigation can possibly get of the ground without founding axioms held true (and a surrounding theoretical framework that imbues categories meaning by contextualizing them).

ebola

 

[turkalurk]

^You going to answer this, turk?

1. Who claimed to be "uber-compassionate", on this thread / website?
(tip: don't use "uber" in English sentences).

2. If you fail to empathize with slave owners does that make you smug or narcissistic?
If not, why? Shouldn't it, according to your ridiculous logic?

3. Minoring or majoring in philosophy seems to invariably make people think can out-argue other people's philosophical positions... The only reason I can see that you're so invested in countering the vegetarian argument, is the (repressed) guilt you feel... Either that, or you're upset because you got rejected by Ninae... What am I missing?

...



You appear to not understand the word ego, unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.
According to your logic, what, all good deeds are egotistical? (That's stupid.)

so, you intend to convince me I am wrong by acting smug about my use of language? fascinating! Yes, the claim was actually made in what you quoted that their position was based on the empathy and compassion for life. I suppose that empathy doesn't apply to those you argue with. Look at the way you try and hurt my feelings by your attempt to publicly humiliate me with your perceived rejection. Are you trying to harm my ego? How nice of you to eat vegetables and treat your fellow man like crap.

Slavery is irrelevant because arguments can be made on generally accepted premises whose conclusions and implications can be inferred from these premises. A consensus can easily be recognized because we are better equiped at empathizing with our fellow man. Anthromorphically projecting ourselves into the shoes of a fellow man seems pretty ontologically more appropriate than projecting it onto other species of animals does it not?

Also, based on my initial framework of universalization, a law outlawing slavery can and has been as universalized. In other words, you have presented another fallacious argument known as the false analogy.

People who studied philosophy are simply on average more informed about logic and reason. They are usually more confident in their reasoning abilities because of their opinion is an educated one. I never suggested that my education should make my opinion more valid. I used it to inform you that attempts to use errors in my spelling or sentence structure, will not shake my confidence in my reasoning abilities. Attempts to make me feel insecure are futile. Nina herself could ridicule my attempts to compliment her and I would only laugh it off. Like I said, it supports my hypothesis that it has more to do with ego because you sure don't seem very compassionate to me!

All good deeds benefit the self in some way. Altruism feels good and I am glad it does. I don't believe any action is selfless, bit rather unselfish or nonselfish. Selfishness implies that an action benefits the self at the expense of or without the consideration of others.

Everyone has ego, its part of being human. Egoism and Egotism represent the unhealthy egoic tendencies.


e·go
ˈēɡō/
noun
a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
"a boost to my ego"
synonyms: self-esteem, self-importance, self-worth, self-respect, self-image, self-confidence
"the defeat was a bruise to his ego"
PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.

 

[ebola?]

People who studied philosophy philosophy are simply on average more informed about logic and reason. They are usually more confident in their reasoning abilities. I never suggested that my education should make more opinion more valid.

If you don't understand that it is fallacious to apply this as evidence to any of the arguments you've put forth, I question the existence of your degree.

ebola

 

[ebola?]

Also, based on my initial framework of universalization, a law outlawing slavery can and has been as universalized. In other words, you have presented another fallacious argument known as the false analogy.

However, we need to further explore this framework. What determines the level of specificity we use as a maxim to judge by the categorical imperative? Is it valid, for example, to say "One should not kill humans?" Why that and not "One should not kill"? Or why not "One should not kill perceiving beings"? I'll note that all of these present cases for which most people would like to make exceptions. I'll also note that I'm not at all wedded to this Kantian framework.

All good deeds benefit the self in some way. Altruism feels good and I am glad it does. I don't believe any action is selfless, bit rather unselfish or nonselfish. Selfishness implies that an action benefits the self at the expense of or without the consideration of others.

So what is the problem with this? One needs some spark of motivation to do good, and what's wrong with that leading to hedonism?

ebola

 

[turkalurk]

If you don't understand that it is fallacious to apply this as evidence to any of the arguments you've put forth, I question the existence of your degree.

ebola

fail, i said no such thing. I said my education gives me confidence in my reasoning abilities but did not make my opinion any more valid. Furthermore, credentials are not always irrelevant or they would be worthless. Relying solely on ones credentials to prove a point is fallacious. But, if my question was health related, then a person's medical education is surely important. At any rate, I made no such claims in the first place. I suppose if you can't find the holes in my logic, its much easier to fabricate them.

 

[turkalurk]

However, we need to further explore this framework. What determines the level of specificity we use as a maxim to judge by the categorical imperative? Is it valid, for example, to say "One should not kill humans?" Why that and not "One should not kill"? Or why not "One should not kill perceiving beings"? I'll note that all of these present cases for which most people would like to make exceptions. I'll also note that I'm not at all wedded to this Kantian framework.



So what is the problem with this? One needs some spark of motivation to do good, and what's wrong with that leading to hedonism?

ebola

I never claimed anything was wrong with it. In fact, I said it was a beautiful thing that I admire and I am glad it exists. I am just making the claim that they are in the same boat everyone else is in and doing good deeds doesn't necessarily make you better at being human, it simply means you value the way altruism makes you feel and are more avoident of actions that make you feel guilt.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I know that Turk started it, but you didn't need to take the bait.

You're right.
Sorry.

 

[ebola?]

fail, i said no such thing. I said my education gives me confidence in my reasoning abilities but did not make my opinion any more valid. Furthermore, credentials are not always irrelevant or they would be worthless. Relying solely on ones credentials to prove a point is fallacious.

You brought your credentials up earlier in the thread when they weren't being discussed, and you did not link them to explanation of your confidence in reasoning.

ebola