Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[ForEverAfter]

Ouch!
Wow, you really got me there.

8)

 

[Ninae]

I just mentioned some of the negatives that come out of the sexual impulse (no one bedrudges you positive forms of sexuality).

The big problem used to be lack of birth-control, which they still don't have in all parts of the world. The lives of men, women, and children would be ruined. Women had no rights, anyway, and men would fight each other, etc.

It was a mess, so one of the main political and social agendas was to seek to limit it, and it was necessary. So it also carried over into religion which was used to carry out political agendas with. Although it has nothing to really do with religion but is still one of the top reasons why many have a problem with it.

 

[turkalurk]

That wouldn't need to happen if one could assume we have the judgement-power to know when something is wrong and when it's not - like the difference between a murder and a mercy-killing. But to do that you would need to have a sense of right and wrong and know what is generally wrong in the first place.

I have given plenty of examples when things aren't that simple. Its not always easy to know which way is the best way for all. Maybe variation and diversity have their place in assuring survival. If we were all the same we would only have one solution to every problem.

You seem to confirm my point about superficial morality and feeling morally superior because you act in ways that simply make you feel like a better person. Its just seems like a more attractive form of moral hedonism based on the self-love generated by altrustic behavior. Just like any pleasure seeking behavior; it becomes obsessive and addictive.

 

[murphythecat]

are you okay?
I dont lie, im a buddhist theravada and a buddhist for close to 6 years. Buddhism really helped me change my life around, ive listen to hundreds of talks from many different monks: ajahn chah, ajahn brahm, ayya khema just to name a few. Im a bit obsessed about the dharma actually, Ive given up on my girlfriend, on my friends, on music, on school and on practically everything I hold dear because I believe in the dharma, I will begin my first retreat in may and likely go from there. I plan to become a monk basically. I'm a bit scared of how hard it will be to detach myself as I live a very comfortable life, but I'm sure its the only way to happiness.. I practice mindfulness every day and try to purify me being the most I can.

What is my will free from? Ideas are rarely so absolute. To me, freedom as an abolute with no reference to contrast it with, make little sense. I find it strange you call yourself a Theravada Buddhist. It could but said that technically you are lying. What kind of instruction have you had?

 

[Ninae]

Lol

 

[murphythecat]

indeed, you can only know and judge whats best for you.
things are much simpler when you only focus on you and judge your own actions and thoughts. we all have plenty to be mindful about in ourselves, no need to look outside of ourselves for contradictory and problems, theres enough within.
you the only one who can judge morally the actions you make and find your own solution.
however, having the intention to hurt another being is bad, hurtful and wrong for everybody who try to hurt someone else.

I have given plenty of exahttp://www.bluelight.org/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12945514mples when things aren't that simple. Its not always easy to know which way is the best way for all. Maybe variation and diversity have their place in assuring survival. If we were all the same we would only have one solution to every problem.

You seem to confirm my point about superficial morality and feeling morally superior because you act in ways that simply make you feel like better person. Its just seems like a more attractive form of moral hedonism based on the self-love generated by altrustic behavior. Just like any pleasure seeking behavior; it becomes obsessive and addictive.

 

[turkalurk]

Your version of that would be: I think you take hallucinogens based on your body dysmorphic disorder. A bit more offensive when an irrelevant assumption like that is present, eh?

 

[ForEverAfter]

Im a bit obsessed about the dharma actually, Ive given up on my girlfriend, on my friends, on music, on school and on practically everything I hold dear because I believe in the dharma... I plan to become a monk basically... I'm sure its the only way to happiness.

That doesn't sound particularly healthy, to me...

I think it's weird that you can't comprehend that people can be happy without becoming monks or practicing Buddhism. Perhaps this is something that you need to do, but that doesn't mean that it's something that everybody needs to do... Buddhism isn't about the pursuit of happiness, by the way, so you may be disappointed if that's what you're looking for.

And, I'm sure you don't care, but I don't think it's working that well for you if you've been doing it obsessively for 6 years and you're still judging humanity and saying "fuck them" for eating meat... That doesn't sound Buddhist, at all... And, generally, you don't come across as a particularly calm individual (like most Buddhists I know).

 

[turkalurk]

indeed, you can only know and judge whats best for you.
things are much simpler when you only focus on you and judge your own actions and thoughts. we all have plenty to be mindful about in ourselves, no need to look outside of ourselves for contradictory and problems, theres enough within.
you the only one who can judge morally the actions you make and find your own solution.
however, having the intention to hurt another being is bad, hurtful and wrong for everybody who try to hurt someone else.

I disagree, I am willingbto protect myself and go a step further in harming them enough to supply motivation for them to reconsider the consequences of their actions the next time they mistake a person's hesitance to fight for weakness. Too many times I had to learn the lesson the hard way. If you aren't willing to hurt someone trying to hurt you, you stand a very good chance of getting hurt.

 

[murphythecat]

Ive been just recently free from my weed use that eaten away 10 years of my clear headed life. kinda hard to practice and be stone. all I did was practice my morality. I used to be pretty mean and angry about the world.
I consider life fucking hard, unsatisfying, scary. I find Im not in control enough of my thoughts, my behavior and im very careful not to hurt people as I know it hurt me back. Im totally dispassionate about most things nowadays, see ignorance, pain, stress, worries and confusion all around me, not enough love and care, too much ego centered occupations, values and dont believe in happiness with our way of life. maybe take a minute and look around yourself, ask the real questions, and maybe you will see that people are as smart as you, the same as you and would benefit greatly from love and understanding.

sorry for having said fuck people who eat meat, that wasnt right but I still think there wrong doing it and that we have a serious responsibility toward what we decide to kill for our own gourmet pleasure.

That doesn't sound particularly healthy, to me...

I think it's weird that you can't comprehend that people can be happy without becoming monks or practicing Buddhism. Perhaps this is something that you need to do, but that doesn't mean that it's something that everybody needs to do... Buddhism isn't about the pursuit of happiness, by the way, so you may be disappointed if that's what you're looking for.

And, I'm sure you don't care, but I don't think it's working that well for you if you've been doing it obsessively for 6 years and you're still judging humanity and saying "fuck them" for eating meat... That doesn't sound Buddhist, at all... And, generally, you don't come across as a particularly calm individual (like most Buddhists I know).

 

[turkalurk]

Another get-out clause, this is getting silly. And try to post when you're sober enough that you can spell.

another ad honimen attack. I thought this was about empathy and compassion? Oh yeah, just another method of self gratification. I like the efficiency of my style of writing. I am more about substance rather than superficial errors in spelling and grammar attributed to a small touch screen phone, clumsy thumbs, no spell check, and a lack of proof-reading. I guess for you its all about superficial appearances. To you, how something looks on the outside seems more important to you and that makes you appear shallow to me.

 

[turkalurk]

another ad honimen attack. I thought this was about empathy and compassion? Oh yeah, just another method of self gratification. I like the efficiency of my style of writing. I am more about substance rather than superficial errors in spelling and grammar attributed to a small touch screen phone, clumsy thumbs, no spell check, and a lack of proof-reading. I guess for you its all about superficial appearances. To you, how something looks on the outside seems more important to you and that makes you appear shallow to me.

Not that being shallow is always a bad thing. It has its place to, I am shallow in my own ways.

Btw, I still think you're cute! No matter what you think of me!

 

[turkalurk]

are you okay?
I dont lie, im a buddhist theravada and a buddhist for close to 6 years. Buddhism really helped me change my life around, ive listen to hundreds of talks from many different monks: ajahn chah, ajahn brahm, ayya khema just to name a few. Im a bit obsessed about the dharma actually, Ive given up on my girlfriend, on my friends, on music, on school and on practically everything I hold dear because I believe in the dharma, I will begin my first retreat in may and likely go from there. I plan to become a monk basically. I'm a bit scared of how hard it will be to detach myself as I live a very comfortable life, but I'm sure its the only way to happiness.. I practice mindfulness every day and try to purify me being the most I can.

I do think that you believe yourself to be one. I just disagree that an actual Buddhist monk would read your posts and make any such determination. You might identify as one, but that doesn't actaully make you one. To be an actual Buddhist, requires interaction with an instructor. Otherwise, you are simply following your ego's interpretation of it. You label yourself as something, that your behavior and speech contradict. I don't know your intentions, but calling yourself theravada buddhist sure does seem deceptive to me.

Btw, u can continue to deflect the conversation with red herrings, but I have been graded on my logic and understanding. I am very confident, because they have been verified by my high grade point average. Its rare I didn't ace a class. I have had a few classes that discussed Buddhism. I am a very big fan of Taoism, which influenced Buddhist thought. I just disagree with your interpretation of Buddhism, and trust my instructors understanding of it over your personal opinion.

 

[ebola?]

Btw, u can continue to deflect the conversation with red herrings, but I have been graded on my logic and understanding. I am very confident, because they have been verified by my high grade point average. Its rare I didn't ace a class.

And try to post when you're sober enough that you can spell.

Dude, you're drunk.
You can hardly type.

Look, guys: none of this bullshit is pushing forward discussion at all. Feel free to hassle each other through PM, if you must, but know that this banter is entirely irrelevant to any substantive issues we might engage. If you don't have anything to say beyond this, you don't really have anything to say. . .

ebola

 

[swilow]

Willow, you mentioned being interested in alternatives, but did you read that link I posted on the lab grown burgers? I have provided a healthy compromise and not one of you has commented on it. DOES IT NOT EXCITE YOU TO BE IN THE MIDST OF PROGRESS?

Sorry Turk, I missed it. I don't like the idea of lab-grown meat and I think its irrelevant to the heart of this discussion. Obviously, I would have no ethical problems with consuming it.

My issue, to state it again for the trillionth time, is with 2 main things; 1) the cruelty of keeping another lifeform imprisoned in awful conditions only to be killed and be eaten by people ; 2) the destruction of the environment to maintain current western obsession with eating meat daily. Lab-grown meat would obviously negate much of this. I can't see most people eating it, particularly those in the west who think its reasonable to eat meat everyday.

Look, guys: none of this bullshit is pushing forward discussion at all. Feel free to hassle each other through PM, if you must, but know that this banter is entirely irrelevant to any substantive issues we might engage. If you don't have anything to say beyond this, you don't really have anything to say. . .

ebola

I sort of agree that the more personal stuff should be avoided, but I must say that I am quite pleased at how engaging this thread has become.

I've certainly learned something from this.

 

[sekio]

My issue, to state it again for the trillionth time, is with 2 main things; 1) the cruelty of keeping another lifeform imprisoned in awful conditions only to be killed and be eaten by people ; 2) the destruction of the environment to maintain current western obsession with eating meat daily. Lab-grown meat would obviously negate much of this. I can't see most people eating it, particularly those in the west who think its reasonable to eat meat everyday.

Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but doesn't it follow from those points that the only reason most Westerners eat meat is because they subconciously enjoy destroying the ecosystem?
It seems to me that a lot of people honestly do not concern themselves with where their meat comes from, only that it is tasty and pleasing to the senses. If we advance to the point of making lab-meat that is equivalent in taste and texture to Wagu beef in blind testing, do you really think people would care that their meat comes from a nutrient tank and not a blood-soaked abattoir instead?

I have a lot of faith in the marketing departments of major food producers. If they can market the American consumer a soft, malleable dairy-flavored cellulosic plastic colored with tartrazine and Red 40 as "cheese", I'm very sure they can turn lab-grown meat into at least a consumer product, if not a delicacy.

Disclaimer: I am a filthy animal subjugator who enjoys eating things like hotdogs. (cue gasps of horror from the audience)

Oh, also, thought experiment: If we could grow meat-producing cattle without a functional brain, would that be animal cruelty? Would it still be a 'cow'? If so, how much of the cow must you remove before it's lab grown "meat" and not an animal?

(Bonus question: Why don't people have issue with subjugating bacteria and yeasts to do our dirty work... and then slaughtering them wholesale by consuming them?)

 

[socko]

Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but doesn't it follow from those points that the only reason most Westerners eat meat is because they subconciously enjoy destroying the ecosystem?...

(Bonus question: Why don't people have issue with subjugating bacteria and yeasts to do our dirty work... and then slaughtering them wholesale by consuming them?)

Not just Westerners. I can think of at least one Eastern country of more than 1 billion who enjoys destroying endangered species. The culture values eating the penis of endangered tigers and rhinos, parfly for the purpose of folk magic. They eat cats and dogs too. For some, the more the animal was made to suffer when slaughtering it, the more potent is the effect of the folk magic.

 

[Ninae]

A bacteria doesn't have any more consciousness than a plant. It might move, but no. A tree has a great consciousness in comparison to that. But organisms on that level are like drone-lifeforms keeping the rest of us alive, really, as are plants in a way. But animals close to us in consciousness don't need to be.

And before someone says they're not worthy of a better life than plants/bacteria, are we not worthy of a better life than flies/spiders? You will say that is completely different but it's not really. The spirit and energy-system within is larger and more sentient too and the consciousness within relates to the form in this world in some way.

 

[Erikmen]

Very interesting, although I see the point of Sekio's observations. People in general are interested in taste, bran and quality IMO.

 

[swilow]

You guys should read the book Under The Skin by Michael Faber (please ignore the utter shitness that was the film). There are many themes, with factory farming, exploitation and evidence of consciousness as major themes. Also, it is written brilliantly.

Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but doesn't it follow from those points that the only reason most Westerners eat meat is because they subconciously enjoy destroying the ecosystem?

It seems to me that a lot of people honestly do not concern themselves with where their meat comes from, only that it is tasty and pleasing to the senses. If we advance to the point of making lab-meat that is equivalent in taste and texture to Wagu beef in blind testing, do you really think people would care that their meat comes from a nutrient tank and not a blood-soaked abattoir instead?

-No, I don't think that meat-eating masks a subconscious desire to destroy the environment. I think that is a pretty big and slightly odd conclusion to draw. As you went on to mention, I don't think most people really think about it. They might think briefly about the sadness of factory farms and slaughterhouses but there is a pretty wide and planned disconnect between what we eat and reality. When we eat a cow, we call it beef. When we eat a pig, we call it pork or bacon. When we eat chicken's legs, we call them drumsticks. When we eat a young cow, we call it veal. Deer is venison when being eaten. I think that people are aware of how uncomfortable eating meat makes them and so they create a disonnect between reality and dinner. Of course, I am making the assumption that I know what the majority thinks, and of course I can't know that. The destruction of the environment happens 'over there' so people tend to think it isn't actually happening.

-Again, I can't speak for all people, but I really can imagine some resistance to lab-grown meat. With that said, I would support it as I think it has multiple benefits, but I cannot see lab grown meat entirely replacing factory grown meats. Lab-grown meat represents a small and insignificant solution to the global problem of over-eating meat.

-I think the reason most people eat meat is because it is there and we are told it is food. It actually doesn't need to be, but many are unaware that there are alternative, or they are unwilling to go without. I mean, meat-eating is natural and easily justified, but not the way the majority do it IMO.

Disclaimer: I am a filthy animal subjugator who enjoys eating things like hotdogs. (cue gasps of horror from the audience)

The way hot dogs are farmed is deplorable. I don't understand why you would want to kill such vibrant scarlet abominations. You evil manipulator of sausage you

Oh, also, thought experiment: If we could grow meat-producing cattle without a functional brain, would that be animal cruelty? Would it still be a 'cow'? If so, how much of the cow must you remove before it's lab grown "meat" and not an animal?

Hmm. Have a sail on my/theirs/his/the Ship of Theseus.. Or the replica, either/either.

I think a brain is the first requirment for suffering, though jellyfish may beg to differ. I think that creating an animal without a brain is exploitative in the first place and I find it distasteful but I can't exactly identify why.

(Bonus question: Why don't people have issue with subjugating bacteria and yeasts to do our dirty work... and then slaughtering them wholesale by consuming them?)

We've already explored this; don't tell me you haven't read all 30 pages and taken notes again?

Life appears to be hierarchical, though that could very well be arbitrary. I certainly feel I have more in common with a kangaroo then I do a snake, and a snake then I do a snail and a snail then I do a bacterial-foam. I don't think that bacteria can really suffer; but I, and no-one really, can know this. I assume that their simple physical structure precludes sufferring. I think that snails can suffer, but their suffering is 'less' then the snake, due to the snakes more developed nervous system. Again, this is an assumption. I would sooner kill a kangaroo then a human, because I feel that the death of a human entails more 'loss' and therefore more suffering. The more advanced the physiology of a creature, the more aware it may be and the more suffering it may experience. Again, subjectivity and anthropomorphism at its best, but in this realm, one cannot be objective.

Yeasts on the other hand- kill them all I say.

:D