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P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat
Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices
- Thread starter swilow
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murphythecat
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they shouldnt either.
however, the physical pain when killed is evidently much less pronounced in plants then in animal.
Plants don't have a nervous system like we do. And fish don't have much either. In fact, why not start out by only eating fish, if you're so concerned about nutrition, etc.
If there was any empathy involved at all and not all this "I would love to but I simply can't" etc.
If there was any empathy involved at all and not all this "I would love to but I simply can't" etc.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
Don't worry: he was just making a (overplayed, drastically tired out) joke.
ebola
So, murphythecat.. I answered your question, care to answer mine?
Do you purchase or consume any black market substances or other goods that has ties to organized crime? I imagine you consider anything that is related to organized crime disgusting as killing animals, correct?
(don't get me wrong, what you do is your own business, i'm not going to judge your answer. I'm just curious if your compassion for humans is as strong as your compassion for animals)
Do you purchase or consume any black market substances or other goods that has ties to organized crime? I imagine you consider anything that is related to organized crime disgusting as killing animals, correct?
(don't get me wrong, what you do is your own business, i'm not going to judge your answer. I'm just curious if your compassion for humans is as strong as your compassion for animals)
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Murphythecat said:
Both these points are connected. There is nothing wrong with killing. Philosophically I have spent just as much time thinking about it, and murder, and death, as I have a variety of other topic areas. There is simply nothing wrong with killing. That doesn't mean you should go out and kill a whole bunch of people for no reason, or shoot loads of animals in the head because its a "sport". If you have rats running around your house you're going to fucking kill them. I did just that in my last student house. They are just as much of an animal as a pig, horse, cuddly baby donkey or what have you, but why should I have a 'ethical' conniption fit over killing them? If I don't I'm liable to get a disease and get ill or fucking die.
So what is the difference between killing a rat so you don't get ill and die.. and killing an animal for food consumption? None what so ever. Both are animals. Both deaths serve a practical purpose to ensure the continuation of my being. Killing for pleasure or sport is an entirely different matter. I took no pleasure in seeing the dead rat mashed up by the trap, pretty brutal way to die.. but I'd rather it died than him pissing and shitting all over my food.
You would do the same if an animal threatened your life, or your families life. Or another human if need be. I know I would (sorry PC Britain, I'm not waiting on the police). And there would be no reason to feel guilty about killing them either. Like I suggested before, we're shielded from death and it has made us really pathetically soft. If some idiot gets drunk and throws himself in front of my car it would shock me, but again I'm not going to have a panic attack because my car ran over some moron and I killed him.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
You still haven't made a particularly compelling case against reducing the suffering of perceiving beings as a valid ethical end. In fact, to go forward, you may need to put your current preferred system of ethics and entailed assumptions on the table explicitly.
ebola
ebola
-SS- are you always on a ego-high?
I just ask, as I've had some correcting experiences. Like, I didn't use to have any time for Christianity, but I looked upto Peter Deunov who taught an unique form of spirituality. Then one day I read he only had one goal throughout his life, to become as much like Christ as possible, and I thought if he was good enough for him he had to be good enough for me. But it takes some humility to go through changes like that.
Also, what is your DOC?
I just ask, as I've had some correcting experiences. Like, I didn't use to have any time for Christianity, but I looked upto Peter Deunov who taught an unique form of spirituality. Then one day I read he only had one goal throughout his life, to become as much like Christ as possible, and I thought if he was good enough for him he had to be good enough for me. But it takes some humility to go through changes like that.
Also, what is your DOC?
murphythecat
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hi
its not related really to our conversation.
I dont buy much drugs anymore, only the RC's market and cactus is legal where im from. the only thing I still buy is weed and shroom.
if you think the weed and shroom market create as much suffering as the million of animal killed every day to feed us, Id have to disagree! I live in canada, where weed is not very crime related either.
its not related really to our conversation.
I dont buy much drugs anymore, only the RC's market and cactus is legal where im from. the only thing I still buy is weed and shroom.
if you think the weed and shroom market create as much suffering as the million of animal killed every day to feed us, Id have to disagree! I live in canada, where weed is not very crime related either.
What 23
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SS said:
Agreed.
Ebola? I wasn't aware it was useful. The question alone and non-access to such a thing anyway (controlled conditions and complexity like lab synthesis) in meaningful numbers all around makes it unsuitable as a replacement to me. Plus Spirulina can soak up toxins and tech would be needed to test its safety. And for me, my gallbladder dislikes the stuff for some reason. Could be a slow liver. ...I don't know.
But animals aren't morons who run in front of your car. How do people come up with these arguments? It's not a student meeting.
Compared to animals humans are the morons. But we have found a way to get around that. Or survival for the fittest, which is another thing we pride ourselves on, but aren't really.
Compared to animals humans are the morons. But we have found a way to get around that. Or survival for the fittest, which is another thing we pride ourselves on, but aren't really.
Sure it's related. I wanted to see if you were being a hypocrite by doing business with those that cause pain and suffering to humans. No, I don't believe the dude growing a few plants on your block is causing much pain and suffering to people. That's why I specifically stated black market goods, of which large volumes are generally controlled by gangs or organized crime syndicates.
One Thousand Words
Bluelighter
The life span of plants far exceed that of animals such as a rabbit.
All life is special, you can't pick and choose. Plants react to pleasure and pain, just because they don't purr doesn't make them any less important. If we were to find life on another planet and it was entirely plant based we should treat it just as we would if it was fuzzy and cute.
The universe is one series of suffering acts after the other. Who is to say that the enjoyment 20 people receive from eating steaks from a cow is not greater than the life of the single cow?
murphythecat
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but why even try to see if I was hypocrite or not. this issue has nothing to do with me.
We are interacting, I always like to size up and get a feel who I am interacting with. Nothing personal.
murphythecat
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id agree about killing plants and I respect that also in my life. im however less prown to talk about that to people who eats plants as clearly, plants are less attached to themselves and when they die, they suffer much less physically. they dont have a nervous system. so to know exactly what a plant feel or dont feel is much harder to understand really.
but no, killing is not okay, even if it makes 20 person happy. a cow doesnt want to die and we shouldnt kill it even though it makes people happy.
but no, killing is not okay, even if it makes 20 person happy. a cow doesnt want to die and we shouldnt kill it even though it makes people happy.
I understand
One Thousand Words
Bluelighter
Perhaps plants are just not whiny bitches who choose not to cry and scream when they die. They might choose to take a Buddhist monk approach and accept their fate better than the fur and scale organisms.
Killing 20 plants vs killing a single cow, which is worse?
If you choose to value all life then suicide is the only ethical response. Personally I accept my role in the universe and believe that using the resources surrounding me makes me no less or more evil than a lion who hunts or a vine who chokes another host tree for survival. I don't have to display my bounty in a form of blood lust, but rather take only what I need to survive. I have no moral constraints if this is flesh or plant matter
Killing 20 plants vs killing a single cow, which is worse?
If you choose to value all life then suicide is the only ethical response. Personally I accept my role in the universe and believe that using the resources surrounding me makes me no less or more evil than a lion who hunts or a vine who chokes another host tree for survival. I don't have to display my bounty in a form of blood lust, but rather take only what I need to survive. I have no moral constraints if this is flesh or plant matter
murphythecat
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A. A couple of other arguments meat eaters like to throw back on vegetarians is that the
construction of homes and buildings, which vegetarians live in required the displacement of
animals and the killing of insects. Also, that the agriculture of plant foods causes the killing of
insects too. They also argue that the eating of the plants itself is a form of killing.
The displacement of animals is a far less form of violence to killing animals for food. The
development of homes and buildings does cause death to insects, but this is unavoidable as is
accidentally stepping on an ant walking down the street. The difference is the intent. The Buddha
said that there is no ―crime when there is no intent. A vegetarian builder does not intend to kill
insects just as the person walking down the street does not purposely step on the ant. The
consumption of meat, however, is a voluntary choice matter.
It is true that vegetarians do need to kill plants to eat their vegetarian diet, but the point is to
inflict the least amount of violence. Another important point is that there is a huge difference
between killing a plant and killing an animal. Vegetables and fruits are life forms, but they are
not animals, like humans, cows, and chickens. A vegetable does not have a face or a central
nervous system and does not scream in pain.
Many fruits and vegetables can be eaten without harming the plant, including legumes, berries,
nuts, seeds, pumpkins, melons, squash, okra, and others. Another very important point is that
most fruits and vegetables are eaten at the end of their natural life. In fact, fruit trees actually
produce their fruit so that they may survive and produce another tree. If the tree could talk, it
would beg us to eat its fruit. Seriously, when a human or animal eats a fruit, the food travels
down the intestinal tract, along with some seeds. Later, when the human or animal defecates, the
seeds end up back on the ground at a different location. The seeds then produce another tree. The
tree remains alive and by eating the fruit, we are assisting in the production of another tree.
Now when a person eats an animal, do you think the animal had the same wish to be killed and
eaten? Videos of slaughterhouse procedures have graphically shown how the animals feel about
being killed. They are prodded, often with electric shock devices into the slaughterhouse. Once
their throats are cut, they can be seen crying in pain and kicking with all their might to be free.
Gallons and gallons of blood pour out from the cuts. It is quite graphic and would probably need
an ―X rating for violence if it were shown in theatres.
construction of homes and buildings, which vegetarians live in required the displacement of
animals and the killing of insects. Also, that the agriculture of plant foods causes the killing of
insects too. They also argue that the eating of the plants itself is a form of killing.
The displacement of animals is a far less form of violence to killing animals for food. The
development of homes and buildings does cause death to insects, but this is unavoidable as is
accidentally stepping on an ant walking down the street. The difference is the intent. The Buddha
said that there is no ―crime when there is no intent. A vegetarian builder does not intend to kill
insects just as the person walking down the street does not purposely step on the ant. The
consumption of meat, however, is a voluntary choice matter.
It is true that vegetarians do need to kill plants to eat their vegetarian diet, but the point is to
inflict the least amount of violence. Another important point is that there is a huge difference
between killing a plant and killing an animal. Vegetables and fruits are life forms, but they are
not animals, like humans, cows, and chickens. A vegetable does not have a face or a central
nervous system and does not scream in pain.
Many fruits and vegetables can be eaten without harming the plant, including legumes, berries,
nuts, seeds, pumpkins, melons, squash, okra, and others. Another very important point is that
most fruits and vegetables are eaten at the end of their natural life. In fact, fruit trees actually
produce their fruit so that they may survive and produce another tree. If the tree could talk, it
would beg us to eat its fruit. Seriously, when a human or animal eats a fruit, the food travels
down the intestinal tract, along with some seeds. Later, when the human or animal defecates, the
seeds end up back on the ground at a different location. The seeds then produce another tree. The
tree remains alive and by eating the fruit, we are assisting in the production of another tree.
Now when a person eats an animal, do you think the animal had the same wish to be killed and
eaten? Videos of slaughterhouse procedures have graphically shown how the animals feel about
being killed. They are prodded, often with electric shock devices into the slaughterhouse. Once
their throats are cut, they can be seen crying in pain and kicking with all their might to be free.
Gallons and gallons of blood pour out from the cuts. It is quite graphic and would probably need
an ―X rating for violence if it were shown in theatres.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
thujone said:
Okay. So on what grounds do you underpin your ethics?
ebola