Serotonin issue

[ranidf]

A few years ago I would drink 50mg 5-htp and experience positive effects without any negative side effects. Something happened and now if I drink even 5mg I get something that resembles mild to moderate serotonin syndrome - I feel headache that cannot be resolved by paracetamol or other pain killers and I feel hot. If however I'll drink citerizine, which reduces serotonin a bit, the headache will subside or disappear.

Whats more troubling is that whenever I'll eat normal quantities of food that contains serotonin precursors I would get symptoms correlated with SS. It happens when I eat even one piece of banana. Same happens when I use any of the food supplements that has to do anything with serotonin, such as mucuna pruriens.

Could you give me any advise on what should I do?

 

[sekio]

If you're not on a nonselective MAOI like iproniazid then you're not getting SS from ingesting banana, I can tell you that much. The amount of 5HTP in a slice of banana is very vanishingly small.

If you were unable to tolerate ingesting more than 5mg of tryptophan at a time you'd die. It's an essential amino acid. So my best guess is this is a psychogenic cause of some sort.

 

[serotonin2A]

Your symptoms are not serotonin syndrome. If you had mild to moderate serotonin syndrome then you would be hospitalized.

Did you experience clonus (involuntary rhythmic muscular contractions/relaxations), tremor, or extreme agitation?

If not, then you didn't have a mild case of serotonin syndrome. A headache isn't even necessarily part of the syndrome.

 

[ranidf]

5mg of 5-htp makes a bit of headache and feeling hot. If its not SS, then what is it?
I do experience clonus, but it seems to happen during stressful situations.
If I would ingest anything that is "serotonin active" I get even more headache, very hot and agitated.

Just to point out, its not really important for me if how to call the condition I'm getting, I think it might be then a very mild SS though. What is important to me is to get an advise what I might try to do to fix it.

 

[serotonin2A]

Serotonin syndrome is a serious condition that can prove fatal without prompt medical intervention. Given that fact, I would think that you would actually want to know whether you are suffering from it.

Are you taking any medications that impact the serotonergic system (SSRIs, antidepressants, meperidine, DXM, MAO inhibitors)? If not, then there is no way that 5-HTP could produce serotonin syndrome.

I'm not actually sure why you are linking this to serotonin, since there seem to be a lot of things that are producing the same side effect as 5-HTP. Have you thought about seeing a physician to figure out the cause for this? If 5-HTP was the only cause for these symptoms then I would say you were just having side-effects, but if some foods produce the same effect then this probably is unrelated to setotonin.

 

[ranidf]

Very mild SS might not be serious IMO.

I do take very low dose of Selegiline 1mg. But its unrelated, because I have started to take it 2 months ago, whereby the serotonin issue has started about 2 years ago.

"the same side effect as 5-HTP" - perhaps you misread my messages here. When I take 5-htp 5mg I get the headache and hotness, not something else that resembles in symptoms.

 

[serotonin2A]

Very mild SS might not be serious IMO.

You can't really have a "mild" case of serotonin syndrome -- you either have the syndrome or you don't, because there are specific diagnostic criteria. Some patients with serotonin syndrome will experience fever and headache but those are secondary symptoms and are not specific for serotonin toxicity -- having those symptoms on their own is not a more mild form of the syndrome. You really have to be experiencing clonus or tremor/hyperreflexia and by that point you would be very sick.

I do take very low dose of Selegiline 1mg. But its unrelated, because I have started to take it 2 months ago, whereby the serotonin issue has started about 2 years ago.

It is highly unusual for a 5-HT precursor, even at high doses, to produce serotonin syndrome in a healthy individual unless other serotonetgic drugs are also present. The fact that some foods also cause you to have headaches and feel hot suggests these symptoms have nothing to do with serotonin.

"the same side effect as 5-HTP" - perhaps you misread my messages here. When I take 5-htp 5mg I get the headache and hotness, not something else that resembles in symptoms.

You said some foods produce the same effect and thats what I was referring to.

 

[ranidf]

So how would you explain that I get headache and feeling hot from 5mg of 5-htp?

 

[serotonin2A]

So how would you explain that I get headache and feeling hot from 5mg of 5-htp?

But it's not just 5-HTP that gives you a headache and makes you feel hot...you said bananas and other foods do the same thing. Bananas contain very little 5-HTP. A quick search turned up one site saying that a banana contains about 1.5 mg 5-HTP. That isn't enough 5-HTP to have any impact on the serotonin system. I'm not sure why you are having these side-effects but it doesn't have anything to do with serotonin.

One other point is that feeling hot is not a reliable indicator that your body temperature is elevated. It would be interesting to see if you actually have a fever after you eat a banana.

 

[Bagseed]

I'll be blunt und suggest that there is a not so small possibility of you being a hypochondriac.

when I have bad anxiety, I'll also start to feel all sorts of things in my body, for example feeling weak and shaky, muscle twitches, I feel the heartbeat in different party of my body, even though when I check it, it isn't really elevated or very strong at all.

just my two cents. and btw, since you experience these symptoms since two years, if this really is a serious condition, you would have had experienced some real impacts on your health by now (at least in my opinion).

 

[ranidf]

Well, I do experience these symptoms due to some foods that affect serotonin: bananas and in a bit lesser extent watermelon. But in 5-htp there is only 5-htp, I even don't drink the capsule, just the 5-htp only. However, when I drink l-tyrosine I do not experience such effects. So how you can say its not serotonin related? I didn't check yet if the temperature is actually elevated.

In the past I have used a good number of synthetic drugs, such as Charge, Spice, Skunk, etc combining them with food supplements, especially 5-htp. As such I have also tried speed and meth with preloading of 5-htp with cannabis. Any of these experiences might have affected my brain or the effect might have been cumulative.

I agree that stress and other psychological factors might have influence, but they probably only aggravate, for the example during these two years I was depressed, other time stressed, yet other times happy and contended, but the headache and hotness wouldn't change - the more serotonin I ingest - the more pronounced headache there is.

On one occasion I tried to snort Ritalin, but I didn't get any high - just bad feeling and after that my response to 5-htp became even more worse, ie: with lesser amounts of 5-htp I would get more headache.

 

[ranidf]

Actually as I think about it, you might be right that it's not really about serotonin, or at least or possibly not serotonin only.
When I drink acetyl-ltyrosine I also dont feel good if I drink more than one fifth of a tablet. However it could be that the effects of tyrosine overload are not as pronounced as that of serotonin.

Of course it could've been that my BBB is affected? But it might not be the case or not only the case.

 

[serotonin2A]

Well, I do experience these symptoms due to some foods that affect serotonin: bananas and in a bit lesser extent watermelon. But in 5-htp there is only 5-htp, I even don't drink the capsule, just the 5-htp only. However, when I drink l-tyrosine I do not experience such effects. So how you can say its not serotonin related?

I can say that because bananas don't effect serotonin in the manner that you are assuming. Serotonin synthesis is heavily regulated, and eating a banana doesn't increase serotonin levels any more than any other protein-containing food. Whether or not you react to tyrosine is immaterial. There is nothing in bananas that specifically alters serotonin.

On one occasion I tried to snort Ritalin, but I didn't get any high - just bad feeling and after that my response to 5-htp became even more worse, ie: with lesser amounts of 5-htp I would get more headache.

You seem to be developing some type of intolerance to something that you are ingesting. 5-HTP is probably not the only ingredient in the capsules you are taking and it is possible you are reacting to the other ingredients. It is highly unusual for supplement capsules to be filled with a pure chemical. Plus, 5-HTP is usually in the form of an extract and there may be other things that were extracted along with the desired amino acid.

Actually as I think about it, you might be right that it's not really about serotonin, or at least or possibly not serotonin only.
When I drink acetyl-ltyrosine I also dont feel good if I drink more than one fifth of a tablet. However it could be that the effects of tyrosine overload are not as pronounced as that of serotonin.

Of course it could've been that my BBB is affected? But it might not be the case or not only the case.

There is no such thing as tyrosine overload. It is an amino acid and if you take too much then your body just excretes the excess.

Your BBB is fine.

 

[ranidf]

"You seem to be developing some type of intolerance to something that you are ingesting."
Well, when I eat meat, chicken, apples, in fact all fruits and vegetables, all sorts of meat, all cereals - I don't get headache.
The only foods that affects me are the ones that has serotonin or other active things: bananas, watermelon, apple cider vinegar, juice with 30 mg of COQ10 make me hot. Fish sometimes give me bad feeling as if I overloaded omega 3.
In fact most of the food supplements that has to do anything with neurotransmitters produce symptoms.
The 5-htp I'm using is the same one that I used two years ago that produced good effects.

I think you might not have much practical clue, this is not an insult, just observation. Try to drink 10 tabs of acetyl-ltyrosine at once and let us know your experience.

 

[s0rsha]

"Meat, chicken [...], all sorts of meat" contain considerable amounts of tryptophan and would then by the same logic give you "mild SS", in the hypothetical case that such a condition would be defined.

Taking a look at part of the relevant pathway:

As you can see, there are a multitude of steps involved, all being performed by different entities in the body, all very tightly regulated in order to function. This picture does not even list the necessary so-called co-factors that also need to be present in order for synthesis to be possible at all. As you know, all tryptophan does not end up as either tryptamine or melatonin, because then there would not exist any of the intermediate substances. Ingestion of tryptophan does not mean complete uptake of said tryptophan as it competes with other amino acids in that regard.

I am not invalidating your experience. I am sure that the headache and feeling hot that you experience is very real, and it does sound like a problem. However, if the root would be what you propose, you would be an unique specimen in medical history on par with a mythical creature. There is simply no serotonergic basis for it in the way you propose and the reason must be sought elsewhere.

 

[serotonin2A]

"You seem to be developing some type of intolerance to something that you are ingesting."
Well, when I eat meat, chicken, apples, in fact all fruits and vegetables, all sorts of meat, all cereals - I don't get headache.
The only foods that affects me are the ones that has serotonin or other active things: bananas, watermelon, apple cider vinegar, juice with 30 mg of COQ10 make me hot.

I think you might not have much practical clue, this is not an insult, just observation. Try to drink 10 tabs of acetyl-ltyrosine at once and let us know your experience.

Some people who suffer migraines have to eliminate certain foods from their diet because they act as triggers. It could be you are experiencing something similar. But often there is no way to look at their list of triggers and guess at the specific chemicals that are responsible. Here you are just guessing that serotonin is involved, but none of the foods you listed have any effect on serotonin.

I think you should consider the fact that it is possible to have food intolerances or to feel ill if you ingest more of a substance that your body will tolerate. My lack of a "clue" about your problem is because you haven't provided enough information to identify a specific factor that all the problem foods have in common. There doesn't seem to be one single ingredient that they all contain. But that doesn't really matter, because if you can identify the triggers then all you have to do to avoid the problem is to stop eating the foods.

 

[SixBuckets]

Migraines can be triggered by some really wack and random things, including foods that don't seem to have anything connecting them.

People who experience migraines don't tend to refer to them as just 'headaches', though.

 

[ranidf]

To all the people who mentioned that I cannot possibly have SS because I would be hospitalized - please read
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/serotonin-syndrome. There are different severities of SS.

The impact I experience is proportional to the amount of serotonin precursors I ingest. It takes one banana to give me a headache and the feeling of hotness. But if I eat a slice of watermelon - I do not have side-effects, which I do have if I eat a half of the watermelon.
Same observed with 5-htp or mucuna pruriens - the more I ingest the more severe the headache and hotness.

My understanding though, is that it's not about serotonin only. I get bad symptoms from DMAE too, as well as from Acetyl-l-tyrosine and other food supplements.

Due to abuse of many substances, drugs and their combinations it seems that something got wrong with my brain. Is it BBB? Is it something else? Or both? What could happen and how can I try to reverse of heal it?

 

[ranidf]

"Meat, chicken [...], all sorts of meat" contain considerable amounts of tryptophan and would then by the same logic give you "mild SS", in the hypothetical case that such a condition would be defined.

Taking a look at part of the relevant pathway:

As you can see, there are a multitude of steps involved, all being performed by different entities in the body, all very tightly regulated in order to function. This picture does not even list the necessary so-called co-factors that also need to be present in order for synthesis to be possible at all. As you know, all tryptophan does not end up as either tryptamine or melatonin, because then there would not exist any of the intermediate substances. Ingestion of tryptophan does not mean complete uptake of said tryptophan as it competes with other amino acids in that regard.

I am not invalidating your experience. I am sure that the headache and feeling hot that you experience is very real, and it does sound like a problem. However, if the root would be what you propose, you would be an unique specimen in medical history on par with a mythical creature. There is simply no serotonergic basis for it in the way you propose and the reason must be sought elsewhere.

Please see my reply. Also, it seems that hotness and headache is a result of high blood pressure which I seems to be getting from serotonin related substances. Normally my blood pressure is 90/60, but last time when I checked it during a light headache and hotness due to a very small amount of apple cider vinegar (one gulp of diluted) it was 130/80.

 

[serotonin2A]

Please see my reply. Also, it seems that hotness and headache is a result of high blood pressure which I seems to be getting from serotonin related substances. Normally my blood pressure is 90/60, but last time when I checked it during a light headache and hotness due to a very small amount of apple cider vinegar (one gulp of diluted) it was 130/80.

The point that I keep trying to make but that you keep ignoring is that bananas and apple cider vinegar do not contain any "serotonin related substances", at least in amounts that could have any effect on serotonin in the brain. There isn't any substance in one gulp of diluted vinegar that could alter serotonin levels. It is much more likely that you are reacting to an amine such as tyramine.