Do you believe in Karma?

[Xorkoth]

^^ I felt the exact same way as a kid. Even if I was in a group of people and someone else was causing another person in the group pain, I would feel it and get very uncomfortable. It caused me to constantly subjugate my own desires for the desires of others (particularly friends and family), which caused me to become a doormat who didn't know how to insist on my own needs. It came from a good place but it hurt me in the end. In my ex-marriage I used to always go with her feelings instead of my own and in such an intense type of relationship this caused a lot of resentment over the course of 12 years... it didn't help that she would utilize this tendency of mine to get what she wanted and then chastise me for being "weak-willed".

I still feel the pain of others pretty acutely but I have learned how to react internally in healthier ways and better communicate my own needs.

 

[Ninae]

Yes, I guess it's what's called empathy. It is a strength and sign of higher consciousness, for sure, but it can also turn you into a victim if you don't know how to balance it right.

A perfect balance would be ideal but most seem to lean one way or another. Then there are a few who seem to come with both a high degree of empathy but also a strong sense of limits to how much they want to take on themselves and also can defend themselves easily. This is what I'm aiming for, and sometimes I can overdo the aggressiveness, but I naturally have a strong sense of limit so I don't let it go too far.

I don't think I'll never get used to the need to defend yourself against others by going on the defensive and turning your power and negative energy against them, though, but it's slowly starting to feel more natural (it's just a necessity). Although in a way it's like losing your innocence but what can you do.

 

[murphythecat]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but one thing I don't agree with is that we have everything we need right now, in this moment. Perhaps mentally, but in fact we need food, water and shelter to survive. We need to be able to predict ways to avoid predators and other deaths by using past experiences and future planning. Same for gathering food and water and building shelter. If we lived purely in the moment we would not survive. I do however agree that people should strive to live MORE in the moment, and that focusing TOO MUCH on the past and future produces suffering, in general.

Also, when I was addicted to opiates, my mind was the quietest it's ever been. But I disliked that, I like having an active mind full of thoughts and dreams. After 10 years of opiate addiction I thought I had broken myself, and I was never so happy to have an active mind as I was when it came back. I think part of being human is having an active and inquisitive mind and I would not want to give it up, even if it makes it pretty intense to be a human sometimes.

very interesting about your opiates use. indeed, opiates makes a quiet mind, but it doesnt allow the mind to build energy and understanding in that silence. its a forced silence in the mind and while the mind look silenced, its not really silenced.
meanwhile, when you meditate and clearly see that when you stop completely the thinking process, the breath is much more beautiful and you feel much calmer and you understand that having no thoughts in life is much more pleasant then having thoughts.
hence you begin to just be mindful of the body at all time. then your life changes.

BTW guys, i will get ordained very soon. im in contact with centers and might go in germany to aya khema center. Its time!

 

[Ninae]

Congratulations and good luck with that.

I think I should soon be ready to be ordained as something. Maybe I will finally get around to writing my 3 books (Gabriel said I will write 3 books that will be translated into 3 languages but so far haven't been willing).

Although I would add that I learning to think only high-level thoughts can be as good as thinking no thoughts. Or you would think that is how God works. Thoughts are also creative and can also be used to create good for sure.

 

[murphythecat]

Congratulations and good luck with that.

I think I should soon be ready to be ordained as something. Maybe I will finally get around to writing my 3 books (Gabriel said I will write 3 books that will be translated into 3 languages but so far haven't been willing).

Although I would add that I learning to think only high-level thoughts can be as good as thinking no thoughts. Or you would think that is how God works. Thoughts are also creative and can also be used to create good for sure.

thanks! I see from your post how far you also are in the path. keep at it!

high level thoughts? what is that?
Any thought create either negative, neutral or good karma.
and theres not a lot of different type of wholesome thoughts. Most of the thought we think is positive brings more stress then happiness.
no thinking in the mind is the beginning of the path as its much more pleasant to not think and be here, now, in the body. No matter how positive and wholesome the thoughts, its much much more pleasant to abide in mindfulness of the body,
and thats a fact, not a opinion but one need to experience it to know and see it himself.

 

[Erikmen]

thanks! I see from your post how far you also are in the path. keep at it!

high level thoughts? what is that?
Any thought create either negative, neutral or good karma.
and theres not a lot of different type of wholesome thoughts. Most of the thought we think is positive brings more stress then happiness.
no thinking in the mind is the beginning of the path as its much more pleasant to not think and be here, now, in the body. No matter how positive and wholesome the thoughts, its much much more pleasant to abide in mindfulness of the body,
and thats a fact, not a opinion but one need to experience it to know and see it himself.

I totally agree that no thinking and be here and now. That's the goal of a perfect meditation.

 

[Xorkoth]

I still maintain that part of being human is thinking, and that there are plenty of thoughts that are "wholesome" as you put it. Thinking about, for example, my girl who's going to come over tomorrow and looking forward to that brings me nothing but happiness; I challenge you to try to convince me that it doesn't. Likewise thinking about the future in terms of where I could go musically with my band, that inspires motivation and excitement which increases my inspiration and happiness. Thinking about the amazing jams that me and my friends did last night fills me with warmth and smiles and motivates me to keep wanting to go down this path. Spending time today thinking about and doing some work for an opportunity I got recently caused me to feel proud of myself that I got some work done, and happy in that it will lead to future higher levels of security. As living creatures security is important to us, and it requires planning. There is a time for no thought and simply awareness of the moment... I am about to go on a hike in nature and I will practice this then, when all I need is to soak up the sun and trees and animals. But the idea of a thoughtless life does not in any way appeal to me nor does it seem like a good idea at all. My thoughts very often bring me happiness and it seems presumptuous for you to try to tell me that in reality they are not bringing me happiness. I know when I'm happy and when I'm not.

I have practiced a lot recently the acceptance and release of negative thoughts that ARE causing me pain. I understand the value of getting rid of damaging thoughts and I agree with that. But the vast majority of my thoughts are not damaging to me in any way and I'm not sure how you can feasibly tell me they are. I want to be a vibrant human being and part of that vibrancy, for me anyway, is an active mind. It makes me feel more alive and is the source of my inspiration, and to me, inspiration is my fuel for real happiness.

Also think about this: you're thinking in order to type up posts on Bluelight. Clearly you have plenty of thoughts. Are you saying your goal is to no longer have these thoughts and literally go through life simply experiencing the perceptions of the moment at all times? What could you do for others at that point, without a thought in your head? You can't communicate with people without thoughts. You can't share of yourself except perhaps with your physical presence and energy. I would agree that in meditation, no thought is the goal, but in non-meditation life, this just does not make sense or ring true to me at all.

 

[murphythecat]

its the beginning of any meditation indeed. its fair to say that if someone never reached no thought in the mind long enough, he doesnt really know why we meditate and could see no point in meditation.
but once you see clear enough that mind and body are separate and that the mind can be controlled and calmed with concentration, lot of things change and the care for any body pleasure becomes evident that its unsatisfactory compared to the pleasure of mindfulnessé

the goal is to gain insight into the nature of reality and thats only possible in the jhanas states and to reach the jhanas, it all begins with no thought and mindfulness of the body.

I totally agree that no thinking and be here and now. That's the goal of a perfect meditation.

 

[murphythecat]

Thinking about, for example, my girl who's going to come over tomorrow and looking forward to that brings me nothing but happiness; I challenge you to try to convince me that it doesn't.

ok!
well, when you think of the future, you are not in this moment and its only in this moment that you have to bring you happiness. when you think of the future, you hope, you crave, you feel you are missing something you need to your happiness. in reality, it gives you much more stress to think about that pleasant moment with your girl that you will soon have compared to just be here, right now, mindful. thinking is always in reaction to unsatisfaction right now. its a natural reaction that occurs when we think that what we feel or have right now is not enough. Also, in my experience, everything we think will happen and plans, doesn't go how we thought it would anyway. also, I have a big tendencies to feel unsatisfied. as soon as I have what I wanted, there's another craving appearing. its like, as soon as we get what we wanted, we just want something else.

we may not realize that most of our thoughts brings a subtle type of stress. even remembering past moments which were cheerful brings sadness and envy and steer you away from everything you have right now.

I really suggest to you to try it for yourself. asking your mind, what are you doing now? remembering, craving, ressentings past events, judging, thinking, comparing? you then clearly see that your mind in not here. as soon as you do that, you see that the thinking stop and that you are mindful of your thoughts rather then be the thinker.
of course, as everything, you have to try it to know if its for you xorkoth, but for me, mindfulness of the body is much more deep, purifying, true and calming and soothing then any great thought Ive ever had.

about the type of life I aim for. I aim to see what I have right now and how much suffering is self inflicted and what I have inside and I know that my mind is not my body and that my mind accord to many times to try to satisfy the body and all its concern is a big limitation. theres no need to think and we think rather obsessively rather then being able to rely on our thinking. thinking is closely related to our ego. we think therefore we think we are. but we dont see that our thoughts limits the experience of now, which is beautiful and totally fulfilling.

mindfulness is the goal when you meditate. but if you loose all your mindfulness when you dont meditate, you will not go very far in meditation as you will need to work a lot to bring back the mindfulness of the body when you meditate. you are still here without thought, but you experience much more then when you just think and think about the past, the future, ect. mindfulness of the body is much more pleasant and thats why people meditate. to connect to the mindfulness of the body, which is much closer to the nature of reality then our thoughts.
I must admit, I feel a bit scared but I have to try it. they recommend 5 years of dedication to see if monk life is for you. and so I will try it for myself.

 

[Xorkoth]

Thanks for the detailed reply. A lot of what you're saying I agree with, it's just that you seem to be taking a very absolute stance and I just don't agree with that. But it's interesting to discuss. I do believe I need to become better at mindfulness, it's always been difficult for me compared to other things. I sometimes get very lost in my thoughts, but this makes me feel sharp and alive as well. I just wanted to mention that in my example of thinking about seeing my girl tomorrow... the thought was not coming from a place of lacking. I'm very glad I was by myself today, and I don't feel I need her company to be happy or anything. I wasn't feeling the lack of her company. The thought just popped in my head and I got excited that tomorrow I will get to spend time with her. It actually added to my happiness and positivity in the moment because then not only was I fully satisfied with my current moment, I remembered I was going to have a good thing happen tomorrow, which increased my feeling of joy about life.

Another thing is the whole concept of ego itself... I notice a lot of psychedelic users who get into the spirituality of the experience, as well as other spiritual-minded people, seem to have this idea that the ego needs to be suppressed. In my opinion, the ego is what makes us human. Yes, we are spiritual beings that exist beyond this current human life, but we're here as humans for a reason. I believe that reason is so that we CAN experience what it is to have an ego, to have the illusion of separation from everything else, to have thoughts and opinions and emotions and ups and down, so we can learn as a being. To be human, ego is a necessity - I'd even go so far as to say that it's the very thing that MOST makes us human. It's our individual personality, the thing that makes us unique.

That said, it's also important to understand the ego and to be mindful above its impulses. To focus too much on the ego is a bad thing that causes suffering in both yourself and others, to be sure. But I would never want to suppress my ego totally or even mostly, only the negative or destructive thoughts that sometimes can happen. Instead what I do is work on identifying what brings me or others harm in my thoughts/personality (ego), and become aware of those and let them wash over me without affecting me. This leaves only the positive and loving parts of my ego behind which are the parts I always want to feel and think. Those are what make me me. It doesn't make any sense to me to try to "overcome" the ego completely. If we were supposed to do that, then why were we born as humans? It reminds me of the Catholic church, how they try to tell you that your inherent nature is evil and that does not please god. But why would god make us with such a nature then?

Being a human has its ups and downs and is very challenging at times, but the other side of that con makes it far more than worth it. The experience of being a human can also be beautiful and exhilarating and fulfilling. It seems to me that the attempt to eliminate thought and only be aware of the exact present moment is almost taking a step towards transcending humanity itself. And I just think it's sad for someone to not embrace being a human, while they're a human.

For the record I'm not 100% sure that you're saying you want to overcome the ego entirely, but it seemed likely, and even if not, this message applies to a good number of posters I can think of.

 

[ForEverAfter]

it's just that you seem to be taking a very absolute stance and I just don't agree with that

...+1

 

[Ninae]

Murphy, what are your thoughts on what is called Esoteric Buddhism?

Or is the brand of Buddhism you subscribe to the esoteric or the conventional one? I'm just interested, as when I speak about Christianity as something to believe in it's nearly always Esoteric Christianity, as I have never found that much of value in what is seen as "regular Christianity".

But I'm not that informed when it comes to the different strands of Buddhism and don't even know if it can be compared. Or how deep you can go into Buddhism or how many perspectives you can see it from. But what do you think of this essay about esoteric and exoteric Buddhism from a Theosophical perspective?

http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/theobudd.htm

It has some interesting ideas.


"We can assert, with entire plausibility, that there is not one of all these sects - Kabbalism, Judaism, and our present Christianity included - but sprang from the two main branches of that one mother-trunk, the once universal religion, which antedated the Vedic ages - we speak of that prehistoric Buddhism which merged later into Brahmanism.

We repeat again, Buddhism is but the primitive source of Brahmanism. Pre-Vedic Brahmanism and Buddhism are the double source from which all religions sprang."


I know looking into theology in so much depth makes it complex, and Theosophy is particularly complex, but it can be done with all faiths, not just the Christian one. Most religions, and especially the big mass-religions, leave a lot to be desired so I've always been very interested in looking at them from different angles like this.

In other words, are you looking for truth more, or is a sense of devotion or belonging to your chosen belief-system what is most important? Because to me, a belief-system only has value in as far as it's able to shed some light on truth for me. i.e. there is nothing of sentimental value.

 

[murphythecat]

hi!
the ego is anything that you take as you. We think our past, future, our thoughts, likes and dislikes is ours.
in buddhism, the ego is indeed very problematic because the me is imbued in the hindrances. the 5 hindrances is always only to feed the ego, the me. The me master every decision one make in life and what it blocks you to be satisfied at all time. I generalize here, but its useful to try to say it as easy as it can. The ego, the me, the I that wants, that crave, ect, is your master. he tell you that you need this and that to be happy. The ego also believe in the me and theres no truth in that reality. we are a stream, we are not solid, we are very malleable and we must remove the ME in order to find what is already there. but as long as we make waves by trying to feed the me, we will never be able to see what we are and what we already have, inside, waiting to be realized. Concentration and mindfulness really needs to be developped to understand though and see that theres a reality beyond YOU, beyond your thoughts, that is much more perfect then we think.

Thanks for the detailed reply. A lot of what you're saying I agree with, it's just that you seem to be taking a very absolute stance and I just don't agree with that. But it's interesting to discuss. I do believe I need to become better at mindfulness, it's always been difficult for me compared to other things. I sometimes get very lost in my thoughts, but this makes me feel sharp and alive as well. I just wanted to mention that in my example of thinking about seeing my girl tomorrow... the thought was not coming from a place of lacking. I'm very glad I was by myself today, and I don't feel I need her company to be happy or anything. I wasn't feeling the lack of her company. The thought just popped in my head and I got excited that tomorrow I will get to spend time with her. It actually added to my happiness and positivity in the moment because then not only was I fully satisfied with my current moment, I remembered I was going to have a good thing happen tomorrow, which increased my feeling of joy about life.

Another thing is the whole concept of ego itself... I notice a lot of psychedelic users who get into the spirituality of the experience, as well as other spiritual-minded people, seem to have this idea that the ego needs to be suppressed. In my opinion, the ego is what makes us human. Yes, we are spiritual beings that exist beyond this current human life, but we're here as humans for a reason. I believe that reason is so that we CAN experience what it is to have an ego, to have the illusion of separation from everything else, to have thoughts and opinions and emotions and ups and down, so we can learn as a being. To be human, ego is a necessity - I'd even go so far as to say that it's the very thing that MOST makes us human. It's our individual personality, the thing that makes us unique.

That said, it's also important to understand the ego and to be mindful above its impulses. To focus too much on the ego is a bad thing that causes suffering in both yourself and others, to be sure. But I would never want to suppress my ego totally or even mostly, only the negative or destructive thoughts that sometimes can happen. Instead what I do is work on identifying what brings me or others harm in my thoughts/personality (ego), and become aware of those and let them wash over me without affecting me. This leaves only the positive and loving parts of my ego behind which are the parts I always want to feel and think. Those are what make me me. It doesn't make any sense to me to try to "overcome" the ego completely. If we were supposed to do that, then why were we born as humans? It reminds me of the Catholic church, how they try to tell you that your inherent nature is evil and that does not please god. But why would god make us with such a nature then?

Being a human has its ups and downs and is very challenging at times, but the other side of that con makes it far more than worth it. The experience of being a human can also be beautiful and exhilarating and fulfilling. It seems to me that the attempt to eliminate thought and only be aware of the exact present moment is almost taking a step towards transcending humanity itself. And I just think it's sad for someone to not embrace being a human, while they're a human.

For the record I'm not 100% sure that you're saying you want to overcome the ego entirely, but it seemed likely, and even if not, this message applies to a good number of posters I can think of.

as for the human life being beautiful, I couldnt agree more , but I am never fully satisfied with sense contact pleasures and so I dont find anything in life very fullfilling,, at least not fullfilling enough for me to hold on any longer.

as for transcending humanity, its a bit like that. you gain freedom. you dont remove thoughts, you simply see them as thoughts and are able to not suffer from them nor believe them and to go back to mindfulness. Also, if you think negatively, you must see that it creates dissatisfcation right here, right now, so its totally useless to think negatively. Also, we often think about stuff we dont want to think yet we think it. we are not the master, and the whole point is to gain the control of our mind. so, as ive explained, you replace your negative thoughts with positive, then go back to being mindful. when your mindful of your thoughts, you dont think anymore, you see that thoughts has no life of their own if you dont give a life to them. therefore, you see clearly how much stress comes from thoughts.
we think that what we think is important, that it defines who we are, ect. but they are just thoughts, and underneath those thoughts, theres a calm, a beauty that we are unware as long as we live from thoughts to thoughts.
buddhism is all about freedom. freedom of our desire, craving, hate, judgments, thoughts and seeing reality as it really is. once you see how things really are, there no way one can make himself suffer anymore.

 

[Xorkoth]

I definitely agree that negative thoughts are useless and cause suffering, no doubt. I've recently made a lot of progress in being able to let them wash over and through me when I get them and not let them affect me.

 

[swilow]

Buddhism says we are flawed and thus we suffer. Christianity says the same thing. But we are just as nature has wrought us and to focus on imaginary flaws leads to suffering.

There is nothing wrong with being human regardless of what enlightened charlatans tell us.

 

[ForEverAfter]

^Well said.

 

[Smoky]

Yes, we are human not saints, and imperfect. Perfectly imperfect imo/e. This is okay… BEing aware of my programming and not judging myself or acting out on it best I can in the most healthy ways brings a good energy to my life and others.

Borrowing worry and creating more suffering then need be ins't worth it. Life is short indeed…

 

[Ninae]

There is nothing wrong with being human regardless of what enlightened charlatans tell us.

This sounds a bit like idealising the "normal" human state and at the expense of making some progress in the elevation of your consciousness.

Each to their own and all that, but I'm ready to give up a lot of the "wordly pleasures" and devote myself to my spritual advancement. And I mean it too. Like, I used to be obsessed with men but now I've had enough, it always ends bad anyway.

Not worth it, like a lot of things. I can't really relate to being so pulled in by the "trappings" of this world. A shitty trap it is, too, at the expense of something more precious.

 

[psood0nym]

It doesn't make any sense to me to try to "overcome" the ego completely. If we were supposed to do that, then why were we born as humans? It reminds me of the Catholic church, how they try to tell you that your inherent nature is evil and that does not please god. But why would god make us with such a nature then?

I'm admittedly not well versed in Buddhist philosophy, but I thought their rationale for overcoming the ego rested somewhat on a belief in reincarnation. They're not thinking "you live once then you're worm food so self-actualize and make the most of the cards you're dealt." They think you come back and keep suffering until you understand there is no "you" and move on or continue as an enlightened Bodhisattva. They think of how a punch in the face hurts our sense of dignity for far longer than it hurts our faces, and therefore we should expurgate that which states "I have dignity."

I personally think reincarnation is nonsense. With a rapid increase in human population where are all the new "spirits" coming from, how does history reflect the spiritual advancement of these reincarnated beings, and why do so many imagine they're old souls if their belief is true (and these are just a few of the many problems with it)? Yet nevertheless I sense that living selflessly is the surest route to contentment.

 

[murphythecat]

I'm admittedly not well versed in Buddhist philosophy, but I thought their rationale for overcoming the ego rested somewhat on a belief in reincarnation. They're not thinking "you live once then you're worm food so self-actualize and make the most of the cards you're dealt." They think you come back and keep suffering until you understand there is no "you" and move on or continue as an enlightened Bodhisattva. They think of how a punch in the face hurts our sense of dignity for far longer than it hurts our faces, and therefore we should expurgate that which states "I have dignity."

I personally think reincarnation is nonsense. With a rapid increase in human population where are all the new "spirits" coming from, how does history reflect the spiritual advancement of these reincarnated beings, and why do so many imagine they're old souls if their belief is true (and these are just a few of the many problems with it)? Yet nevertheless I sense that living selflessly is the surest route to contentment.

reincarnation is not buddhist.
there no you, so how can noyou be reincarnated?
every moment, ''you'' die and get reborn in the next moment.
we think there's a continuity, that life is solid, that we are solid, but its not. and we must try to see beyond ourselves, beyond our ego, to see the true nature of reality, which is much more fulfilling then trying to feed the ego senselessly.
its only when you stop that thought process and get your mind concentrated that it becomes evident how much we are missing of life.