Englandgz's Methadone CT - feeling a bit rough

[BigG]

Hiya folks, sorry not been on in a week or so. Thanks so much for all the kind words and encouragement.

I made it to around the 1 week mark then the pain just became intolerable (the WDs weren't exactly a pick-nick either). My doc wouldn't prescribe lofexadine as he recons that on;y drug & alcohol are allowed but he did prescribe some clonidine after much argument. I found that helped a little with the adrenaline surges/hot flushes but did little else and made the fatigue element even worse. I had no choice really but to resume my taper.

I'm so disappointed about this as you've no idea who hard it was or how deeply into the depths of my soul I had to dig to just get that far while still working.

I think (as I already knew really) that after 20 years, going from 180 to 100 in 8 weeks then jumping isn't doable by yourself. I think it maybe just doable if you were in some type of inpatient re-had and didn't have to go to work and they were feeding you benzos and whatnot but on your own, with no-support, while working? Just too hard I'm afraid.

I've always felt that I had the strength of will and inner resolve to get past anything but every man has his limit and the situation I described above was mine.

I'm still continuing my quick taper though safe in the knowledge that no matter how rough I think I feel with the drops it can't be anywhere near as bad as what I've just gone though.

PS Rassy - I already knew that mate I was being sarcastic. I knew a positive, nice post was beyond you

 

[BigG]

Good to hear you're well(ish)
Keep up the good work

Cheers Bob mate

Hope you're well too?

 

[Shambles]

To be honest, 100mg of methadone CT'd is pure insanity. Could be used as a torture method. There's no shame whatsoever in backing off from that and going back to a more sane form of tapering. The way I would see it is that you've been at a certain level for the last 20-odd years. No need to try to get back to absolute baseline in 20 minutes. As long as you're going in the right direction it all counts. Best of luck with it

 

[BigG]

To be honest, 100mg of methadone CT'd is pure insanity. Could be used as a torture method. There's no shame whatsoever in backing off from that and going back to a more sane form of tapering. The way I would see it is that you've been at a certain level for the last 20-odd years. No need to try to get back to absolute baseline in 20 minutes. As long as you're going in the right direction it all counts. Best of luck with it

Thanks Shambles, and of course you're right. I did have some personal reasons for wanting off so quick which I'd rather not go into but to rush was madness. Even dropping 80mg in 8 weeks to get down to 100 was pretty mad (my doctor suggested 5mg a fortnight so I did it 4 times as fast).

A taper from here is the only way to go.

You're right about the torture thing. I think I posted the exact same thing somewhere in my ramblings last week. If you could somehow force someone to be dependent of around 100-200mg of meth then just take it away from them, after about a week (maybe even earlier) they would tell you whatever you wanted to know.!!

That brings to mind though the inherent flaw in torturing someone for info (which the CIA seem to have forgotton) is that if you torture anyone long enough they will tell you not-necessarily what you need to know but tell you ANYTHING to get you to stop....

I mean torture me long enough and I'll sign a confession to being the one behind 9/11 as will any of us.

It's an inherently stupid idea.

Thanks for the kind words though mate

 

[BecomingJulie]

Hey Englandgz74, nice to see you back.

Don't beat yourself up. Opioids mimic natural pain-relieving hormones, the endocrine system is a closed negative-feedback loop -- they're bound to alter the way your body works a bit. Your glands have got lazy, winding down production as there seemed to be plenty of the good stuff in your bloodstream already. They have to kick in and start producing endorphins again, if you're to have any hope of quitting. And that is only going to happen when enough unsatisfied µ-receptors are sending out their message -- a long-winded circumlocution to avoid mentioning the P-word.

Anyway. There's some threshhold of pain beyond which your endorphin factory kicks in again (although it won't be able to get up to full speed straight away); and some other point at which it will start to slow down again. If it were only possible to measure the two limits scientifically, it ought to be simple to engineer a "least painful" taper by withdrawing opioids just until the point where endorphin production resumes, at least at part capacity; and then almost but not quite making up the shortfall to the slowdown point with opioids, reducing as the body can provide sufficient of its own product. Unfortunately, anytime any scientist says anything "ought to be simple", another scientist comes along and points out why it's not at all simple. For instance, you'd need to measure precisely, almost to the individual molecule, the quantities of endorphins and opioids present; and you'd have to allow for the time taken by the body to metabolise endogenous versus exogenous product to work out a dosing schedule. Actually, sod using opioids to keep the µ-receptors happy, why not just grow yourself some whole new glands out of stem cells and produce more natural endorphins?

Um. What was I saying? Oh, yeah, don't beat yourself up, you got down to 100 ml. already, and there are people out there having trouble getting off less than that. You've learned something about your body and its limits. Stay on 100 ml. for as long as you need, and start cutting down again whenever you feel in a better place to do so. And if you ever do manage to find a way to quantify in your mind the cut-in and cut-out points for your endorphin factory, you just know where to keep yourself between .....

Stay safe!

(Also, to Shambles.)

 

[BigG]

Thanks Julie.

Of course you're right about the endogenous endorphins thing. My back is pretty much fixed so the pain should be much less but when CTing it was REALLY bad. Probably all due to the endogenous endorphin thing (or rather the lack of ).

I'm resuming my slow taper and am determined to get off. Just jumping at that dose was silly. I thought it would be possible to ride it out and I'm sure it is...with some provisions, and living one your own and working are not among them!!

 

[Shambles]

Julie: Come 'ere ya sexy beast ya

As for CT torture, I proffer my "experimental" inpatient detox from Subutex a few years back. Coming off Subutex via the medium of a proper taper is an absolute doddle (my opinion and experience and all that) but this place asked me to take part in a pilot study and - being fond of science and the wider Goodness and all that - I agreed to without really considering what I was agreeing to. Which was to be jumped up from 2mg/day of bupe to 24mg on the first day inside then given daily doubling doses of naltrexone. I really cannot begin to explain quite how unpleasant this was. I was forced to walk on the Friday (went in on the Monday) cos Thursday was as close to actual physical Hell as I can even begin to contemplate. However, it seems I took one for the team cos this utterly moronic concept has never since resurfaced. Y'all Subutex taperers really ought to be on your knees before me and my thence peers for saving you from a fate truly worse than death.

 

[BigG]

Julie: Come 'ere ya sexy beast ya

As for CT torture, I proffer my "experimental" inpatient detox from Subutex a few years back. Coming off Subutex via the medium of a proper taper is an absolute doddle (my opinion and experience and all that) but this place asked me to take part in a pilot study and - being fond of science and the wider Goodness and all that - I agreed to without really considering what I was agreeing to. Which was to be jumped up from 2mg/day of bupe to 24mg on the first day inside then given daily doubling doses of naltrexone. I really cannot begin to explain quite how unpleasant this was. I was forced to walk on the Friday (went in on the Monday) cos Thursday was as close to actual physical Hell as I can even begin to contemplate. However, it seems I took one for the team cos this utterly moronic concept has never since resurfaced. Y'all Subutex taperers really ought to be on your knees before me and my thence peers for saving you from a fate truly worse than death.

Sounds like some sort of forced precipitated withdrawl?

Although as I'm sure you know it's a bit more complicated that just with the μ opioid receptor binding affinity of buprenorphine is higher than naloxone's and other complications such as Kappa receptor agonism and the like (no point in going into it all as I'm sure you Mr. Shambles know it anyway and for those that don't there's always Wikipedia

Anyway, other than cause you massive discomfort, what was their purpose in this crazy experimental protocol?

On the subject of wired (and unwanted) clinical trials. We are currently undertaking one at the Ambulance Service where instead of people suffering cardiac arrest automatically being given adrenalin there is a trial going on where they will be used in a double blind study where half are given adrenalin and the other half a placebo (saline).

On the surface it sounds massively unethical and a special law had to be drafted in the European Parliament to allow it to go ahead. Although adrenalin has been used in cardiac arrest cases as a matter of routine for nearly 50 years it isn't known whether it maybe does more harm than good as while it undoubtedly can get the heart to start pumping again, it can overstress it by making it pump too fast causing more damage and a further cardiac arrest (this time being mostly fatal).

The only way of opting out (since clearly you would be unconscious when the drugs are delivered) is to sign an opt out and post it to the Ambulance Service....but realistically who is going to do this? No-one ever thinks that it would happen to them do they? Most would probably rather not tempt fate by writing in to opt out but again that's the only way to do so..

Off topic a bit I know but something Shambles said reminded me of it and I just had to share

 

[BecomingJulie]

On the subject of wired (and unwanted) clinical trials. We are currently undertaking one at the Ambulance Service where instead of people suffering cardiac arrest automatically being given adrenalin there is a trial going on where they will be used in a double blind study where half are given adrenalin and the other half a placebo (saline).

On the surface it sounds massively unethical and a special law had to be drafted in the European Parliament to allow it to go ahead. Although adrenalin has been used in cardiac arrest cases as a matter of routine for nearly 50 years it isn't known whether it maybe does more harm than good as while it undoubtedly can get the heart to start pumping again, it can overstress it by making it pump too fast causing more damage and a further cardiac arrest (this time being mostly fatal).

The only way of opting out (since clearly you would be unconscious when the drugs are delivered) is to sign an opt out and post it to the Ambulance Service....but realistically who is going to do this? No-one ever thinks that it would happen to them do they? Most would probably rather not tempt fate by writing in to opt out but again that's the only way to do so..

Presumably there will be some way (for hospital A&E staff) to identify quickly post facto who was given real adrenalin and who was given saline, even if the paramedic administering the medication at the scene is no more aware than the patient receiving it?

Obviously some people do recover without adrenalin, and some do suffer complications -- including further heart attacks -- due to adrenalin ..... so there may be some benefit to such a study, even if it does involve effectively experimenting on unwitting human subjects right on the boundary between life and death. I guess someone must have run the numbers.

Unfortunately, that pretty much goes with the territory of "kill or cure" treatments. I mean, you can't really go round deliberately giving people heart attacks just to see what happens when you're trying to revive them; and you would have to be sure to get a representative cross-section of the population at large anyway, in case you found some other factor influencing the results (aren't young males from poorer social backgrounds already over-represented in clinical trials?) which meant your trial sample was dangerously unrepresentative.

In a civilised society, everyone who got ill would always receive the correct medical treatment, promptly and with no cost at the point-of-use. Obviously we're not quite there yet. Is there some sort of civic duty to participate in clinical trials, even place yourself in the way of danger, for the benefit of succeeding generations?

I think this could be a matter of debate for some time to come.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Time was when methadone addicts who were sent to gaol received fuck all in the way of relief other than a couple of DF-118s (if they were lucky). Then followed 6-8 weeks of personal hell. I know several people that were forced to turkey in this fashion from quite considerable doses of methadone. That has now all changed thanks to a group of 'victims' who appealed to the court of human rights in the 90s. There are a few that I know that received quite a healthy compensation payout for their enforced suffering whilst inside. Not surprisingly, they all blew it on gear within a few weeks.....

 

[BigG]

Julie - good point re the hospital needing to know part....

Rather than the traditional pre-filled adrenalin syringes we usually get supplied with we are going to be given a pack of some sort which is then handed on to the hospital on the patients arrival. Here are some more details:-

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/med/research/hscience/ctu/trials/critical/paramedic2

I'm doing a desk job for the next few weeks so it's not something I've had to deal with personally yet but there has been a lot of talk about it, manly surrounding the ethics of the whole thing while also recognising the need to carry on meaningful research and not just continue with something because that's the way it's always been done when it may in fact be doing more harm than good.

F.U.B.A.R. - anyone who has to carry out a forced withdrawl from a such a high dose has my utmost respect as it is truly a horrible experience. Also I remember reading about the case you mention with several prisoners suing the government for forcing them to go CT while locked up. Saying it infringed on their human rights. It's an interesting point of debate and one which is bound to polarise opinion but after suffering what I went thought last week I think one thing is certain in my mind at least.....and that is that the word "suffering" is in no way too harsh a term!!

The issue of whether the victims of such suffering should be entitled to such a large cash windfall is really the only issue for debate (for me at least). The assertion that they were "forced to suffer" is not an issue for debate (again for me at least) as in my mind, if they felt anything like I did then their ordeal could rightly be defined as suffering..... (I'm rambling so I'll stop now )

Take care folks and thanks again for all he kind words

 

[BecomingJulie]

Whichever way the study turns out, half the people involved will have been deliberately given an incorrect medical treatment. I suppose you have to balance that against lives potentially saved in future, not that it would be much consolation to the families of those involved.

I have a feeling that the public mood afterwards will be vastly more accepting if it turns out that adrenalin does indeed do more harm than good, and suspect the study would never have gained any sort of approval in the first place unless there was serious evidence for a challenge to the status quo.

 

[kingme]

Interesting topic. But I'd like to add that this sort of debate in regards to adrenaline has been going on for some time already and there is evidence to support such a trial.
The guidelines for treatment are just that, guidelines, and there is a constant need to challenge as well as obey them for things to progress, even if they can go against old dogmas...

 

[Shambles]

Anyway, other than cause you massive discomfort, what was their purpose in this crazy experimental protocol?

I honestly have no idea and was in no fit state at any point to realistically discuss the matter with them due to being barely conscious due to massive upping of my dose or being in extreme precipitated withdrawals. I do recall being interviewed every day by the doctor and her ticking boxes and raising her eyebrow repeatedly at the extremity of my state. Also being told each day that nobody so far had had such problem and this day would be much easier. They got worse until Thursday which meant three days in a row where withdrawing alcoholics pitied my appalling condition which is saying something... mostly says that LIbrium is a helluva drug at triple digit doses I suspect but that's as maybe. I got two paracetamol every few hours if I was lucky 8)

Suffice to say I've never heard of such a proposal for withdrawing folk from opioid maintenance treatment since so overall it was probably worth it cos I can't see that particular approach being overly appreciated by the junky hordes...

 

[Dark Side]

To be honest, 100mg of methadone CT'd is pure insanity. Could be used as a torture method. There's no shame whatsoever in backing off from that and going back to a more sane form of tapering. The way I would see it is that you've been at a certain level for the last 20-odd years. No need to try to get back to absolute baseline in 20 minutes. As long as you're going in the right direction it all counts. Best of luck with it

no shame atall, i think what England is doing takes alot especially given his job, mans got some serious balls really i wish i had a pair like him.

 

[methlofex]

coming off 90ml methadone to 25ml onto lofexadine
I hear many people worry about going onto lofexadine from 25 ml. My experience was dropping 5 ml methadone every 2 wks from 90 to 25 ml.
It was a lot worse dropping from 30 to 25 mls, than the actual jump from 25ml straight onto lofexadine.
I am currently on day 11 without methadone and feel mostly fine appart from the odd slight withdrawals.
They are not for everyone as your blood pressure may drop very low and you feel very groggy. But much better than a full blown rattle. I've been on methadone continuously for 26 yrs and feel great at the moment.
They are well worth a try.
I heard many horror story's and got told not to jump off at 25 ml but why drag it out. I found the reducing worse.
Any how ive got one tab left to go and I don't feel I need it so far. The worst bits gonna be lack of sleep. But hey life seems great at the moment. Stay positive, its worth it.

 

[steewith2ees]

coming off 90ml methadone to 25ml onto lofexadine
I hear many people worry about going onto lofexadine from 25 ml. My experience was dropping 5 ml methadone every 2 wks from 90 to 25 ml.
It was a lot worse dropping from 30 to 25 mls, than the actual jump from 25ml straight onto lofexadine.
I am currently on day 11 without methadone and feel mostly fine appart from the odd slight withdrawals.
They are not for everyone as your blood pressure may drop very low and you feel very groggy. But much better than a full blown rattle. I've been on methadone continuously for 26 yrs and feel great at the moment.
They are well worth a try.
I heard many horror story's and got told not to jump off at 25 ml but why drag it out. I found the reducing worse.
Any how ive got one tab left to go and I don't feel I need it so far. The worst bits gonna be lack of sleep. But hey life seems great at the moment. Stay positive, its worth it.

Thats encouraging to read. I have 70mg to get shut of so any success stories such as this one are music to my ears

 

[BigG]

Well I managed it in the end ste.....180mg to 100mg in 8 weeks and then off. I didn't use lofexadine as GPs won't prescribe them....they have to come from drug and alcohol and since my meth was tablets for pain from my GP is couldn't get it. I did get clonidine though which is very similar....

Clonidine, Pregabalin and a SMALL amount of diazepam helped a lot.

It was still hard but anyone who says it's impossible is full of shit... Cos it's not impossible. Difficult yes but don't let anyone discourage you or fill your head with negative talk. What the mind believes the body can achieve......... Best of luck

 

[curious_24]

1g of bubble last night /early hours of today
450mg methadone
30mg diazepam
Cup of tea

........and a cream egg

Thing is, that's not what you said when you were JimmyW. I have no interest in petty squabbles, I just don't want to see someone else try to CT from 100mg methadone thinking "well, Englandgz did it, so I can do it" when it's just not feasible.

I hope you'll understand my concerns.

 

[Eveleivibe]

JimmyW was an alt so he prob made that up. He's not going to make another a/c n say "yo man I just come of 100 mg methadone" etc as people would know instance it was englandz. C'mon use your nogin. You know how to play the alt game, right?! :D

.....not that I have EVER had an alt a/c, of course

However, you do bring up a valid point in saying that if someone hasn't really ct it could impact on another if they're thinking "well so n so did it."

Evey