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^ No need to get personal, ceres. It's only a discussion on drugs, nothing more. The fact you've now turned to trying to make fun of my spiritual beliefs, suggests to me that you can't really construe a senseworthy response. Really sad response, but looking through your constant erruptions of personal abuse to other members across the forum in prior weeks/months, I guess such immaturity is only to be expected.
And as for your link
No, pulling out a random study on the Internet does not mean alcohol is worse than all other illegal drugs. If you actually thought about it, instead of blindly opposing the illegitimacy of drugs, you'd see the sense that alcohol does not kill you or put you in mental hospitals through moderate/high use, unlike your smack, crack and acid's.
And as for your link
Ceres said:
No, pulling out a random study on the Internet does not mean alcohol is worse than all other illegal drugs. If you actually thought about it, instead of blindly opposing the illegitimacy of drugs, you'd see the sense that alcohol does not kill you or put you in mental hospitals through moderate/high use, unlike your smack, crack and acid's.
Sammy G
Ex-Bluelighter
Alcohol does kill people, week in and week out. Though I suppose that's 'abuse', and therefore doesn't count.
As for mental hospitals - alcohol is a far more common trigger for admissions to psychiatric hospitals than LSD.
You're completely missing the point I'm making, I'm not denying for a second that alcohol doesn't kill - i'm just pointing out that for a very large majority of instances, alcohol has to be abused severely if it is to kill someone, or someone has some kind of pre-existing condition that helped. Unlike other illegal drugs, which can kill over one mistaken dosage. Hence them considered more dangerous. Hence it being an appropriate response to Ceres's linked drugs study.
Sammy_G said:
For someone with your level of drugs knowledge and years of experience, this is a pretty staggeringly ignorant statement. Are you actually trying to suggest that alcohol is more likely to see people admitted to psychiatric hospitals than LSD?? has it not occurred to you, that maybe that's because it's use is many, many times greater than that of LSD's? and though statistics will tell you that more people will be admitted to mental hospitals, proportionately to use, LSD is a far more dangerous drug for ones mental health??
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Sammy G
Ex-Bluelighter
Yes, of course it has, though no studies have ever been conducted, so we don't know that to be fact. I'd go as far as to venture that it's entirely plausible that a higher proportion of alcohol users end up hospitalised than LSD users.
You definitively stated, however, that alcohol would never land you in a mental hospital, which is patently untrue. I was merely addressing that.
ceres said:
hardly a 'random study' being published in the lancet and produced by some of the most highly respected scientists in the field.
moderate / high use of alcohol certainly can and does kill and land people in mental hospitals.
and btw, since you feel the need to constantly proslytise on here ramming your spiritual beliefs down peoples throats then I would say they are fair game for criticism.
from http://www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowl...ctsheets/Alcohol-related-morbidity-rates.aspx
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We're talking about mental hospitalisations here, just to clarify. I don't think anyone needs to make a study to point the absolute obvious, that alcohol is no-where near as likely to give you a mental condition, as LSD would. A single dose of LSD can see you in a mental ward . If you have no history of mental issues, alcohol would pose no real concern like this if drank moderately.
Sammy_G said:
No I did not state that at all, your twisting my words around to justify yourself.
I actually said " you'd see the sense that alcohol does not kill you or put you in mental hospitals through moderate/high use, unlike your smack, crack and acid's" I claimed "moderate/high use" wouldn't see you in a mental problem, insinuating you'd have to abuse the drug pretty heavily to develop the symptoms that you may expect from people suffering LSD long term side-effects.
you are wrong, the facts speak for themselves, but then again facts aren't something you let influence your views are they now?
Post some figures, some data to back up your assertions, otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
Post some figures, some data to back up your assertions, otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
Sammy G
Ex-Bluelighter
That's absolute tosh. Where do I start?
No drug can 'give you a mental condition', other than possibly a dependency on said drug, or substance-induced psychosis from excessive use. Both alcohol and LSD are capable of, say, triggering psychotic episodes. So is caffeine, and plenty of other substances found in OTC medicines.
And yes, 'moderate' drinking can (and does) do it. Or are all the alcohol-related admissions heavy drinkers?
Neither alcohol, LSD or any other drug of them are demonstrably capable of causing mental illness. They can cause psychosis, but psychosis is a temporary state.
Vurtual
Bluelighter
Raas - you're comparing alcohol used sensibly in moderation with any use of lsd. If lsd is used with adequate consideration given to set and setting, prior experience (starting small etc) and the general carefulness that isn't very common in the illegal drugs world, then while there would be a risk of psychosis, that risk would be kept low - it would also be accompanied by virtually zero risk of physical harm, unlike alcohol.
With legal accepted lsd use the accumulation of knowledge of how to deal with tripping could continue to make these risks even smaller. Even with psychotic episodes, having the right knowledge/experience/facilities can stop the psychosis naturally with no real lasting damage. Add to that the fact that many 'freakouts' on lsd and other stuff originate in the illegality of the drug itself (anxiety about parents, straight phone calls, thinking the police are coming etc).
There's a reason david nutt put it so low in the drug harm charts compared to alcohol - http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
With legal accepted lsd use the accumulation of knowledge of how to deal with tripping could continue to make these risks even smaller. Even with psychotic episodes, having the right knowledge/experience/facilities can stop the psychosis naturally with no real lasting damage. Add to that the fact that many 'freakouts' on lsd and other stuff originate in the illegality of the drug itself (anxiety about parents, straight phone calls, thinking the police are coming etc).
There's a reason david nutt put it so low in the drug harm charts compared to alcohol - http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
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Ceres, going by your criteria of deducing information from that research - it would suggest crack and smack are better to be legal than alcohol. Do you really believe that?
There's no need for figures for what I have been discussing. I was just pointing out the innacurate statements in this thread. Originally that acid/acid anaologues pose "close to zero risk to an individual". And then the insinuation that "alcohol is more likely to put you in a mental ward problems than LSD". Quite staggering claims, and if you have any knowledge on drugs I hope you can see why it's not necessary to go into much more detail.
No it's not tosh, LSD can "Cause" mental illness. HPPD sufferer's spring to mind.
You're going into far more detail than necessary. Pound for pound acid kicks the shit out of alcohol in terms of giving you mental problems. That's the point I imagine most drug users would know. Why you are trying so hard to deny it, is staggering, and really quite worrying.
I'm not denying alcohol has it's own vices - it's more addictive than acid, which can be costly and life destroying. But when it comes to endangering your mental health, LSD is the blatant winner.
No, ceres. Not your googled research studies anyway, unless your seriously going to tell me heroin and crack should be legal before alcohol. I'm going on common sense, I could back them up with figures but there's no point in hitting google as it seems quite obvious LSD is more dangerous for you mentally than alcohol, and calling it "Close to zero risk of harm" is crazy etc etc, your defiance of this is staggering.
Vurtual
Bluelighter
I'm not denying that there's a risk that lsd can trigger psychosis - i'm saying that given the same sensibleness and moderation you allow alcohol in this comparison, the risk of psychosis is negligible. That sensibleness would obviously include acute awareness of how psychedelics fuck around with your mind (that's why we take them after all), but this in turn leads to the dos and dont's which we should all know about trips (but which are commonly abandoned by youths trying to show off etc) - same way we don't (usually) drink a whole bottle of vodka through our eye.
Even in chaotic illegal drug world, in my experience it seems pretty rare for people to become permanently mentally ill from acid (1 in a hundred or less it seems to me) - and even then, we're back to the 'triggering' rather than causing argument used (badly) with cannabis.
The nutt paper (which you ignored) quantifies various types of risk and adds them together - based on surveying drug workers (or something) - these people would be well aware of the ability of psychedelics to trigger psychosis, and yet the results are still as they are - this was peer-reviewed and published in the lancet so it has some weight.
Edit: do you think psychs would really cause that much harm if they were legalised in the theraputic/spiritual manner of the Santo Daimo ayahuasca church in brazil? (there doesn't seem to be a stream of casualties coming out of that church)
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