The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[ebola?]

If you want it to stay deleted, that's okay too...

Most people appear to have implicit racial biases, at least according to a few studies. These types of gut reactions inform, for example, who we cross the street to avoid at night, who we're suspicious of, etc. The problem here is that we rarely interrogate such feelings to scrutinize their implied conclusions' validity; the problem with one's gut is it's shit for brains, simply inhereting many prevailing stereotypes. Incidentally, these types of tests for bias tend to find most blacks biased against black people (yet at a lower rate than whites). This latter finding in particular demonstrates how implicit biases are implemented unconsciously, inducing strong feelings often opposed to one's consciously reasoned beliefs.

Ebola

 

[socko]

If you want it to stay deleted, that's okay too...

Most people appear to have implicit racial biases, at least according to a few studies. These types of gut reactions inform, for example, who we cross the street to avoid at night, who we're suspicious of, etc. The problem here is that we rarely interrogate such feelings to scrutinize their implied conclusions' validity; the problem with one's gut is it's shit for brains, simply inhereting many prevailing stereotypes. Incidentally, these types of tests for bias tend to find most blacks biased against black people (yet at a lower rate than whites). This latter finding in particular demonstrates how implicit biases are implemented unconsciously, inducing strong feelings often opposed to one's consciously reasoned beliefs.

Ebola

Is it reasonable to ask whether certain police shootings (and other acts of violence) are the result of extreme reactions to these unscrutinized gut feelings?

 

[LosBlancos]

Is it reasonable to ask whether certain police shootings (and other acts of violence) are the result of extreme reactions to these unscrutinized gut feelings?

Yes.

A new study in the Journal of Experimental Criminology finds in an experiment measuring the reactions of participants to various threatening situations that people tended to pull the trigger faster when confronted by armed white suspects. This sounds counterintuitive to most people (including me). A 2001 Bureau of Justice Statisticsreport (latest available) analyzed justifiable homicides and noted:

Felons justifiably killed by police represent a tiny fraction of the total population. Of the 183 million whites in 1998, police killed 225; of the 27 million blacks, police killed 127. While the rate (per million population) at which blacks were killed by police in 1998 was about 4 times that of whites, the difference used to be much wider: the black rate in 1978 was 8 times the white rate.
​

The BJS study also found that black suspects were also as likely to shoot at police as be shot at.
In the deadly force experiments participants (85 percent white) face a life-sized HD video screen on which the stance, clothing, hand motions, objects being held, and race of suspects can all be modified. The subjects are hooked up to brain wave measuring devices and can respond using a laser gun. The press materials from Washington State University detailing the results report:

Participants in an innovative Washington State University study of deadly force were more likely to feel threatened in scenarios involving black people. But when it came time to shoot, participants were biased in favor of black suspects, taking longer to pull the trigger against them than against armed white or Hispanic suspects...
[WSU researcher Lois] James’ study is a follow-up to one in which she found active police officers, military personnel and the general public took longer to shoot black suspects than white or Hispanic suspects. Participants were also more likely to shoot unarmed white suspects than black or Hispanic ones and more likely to fail to fire at armed black suspects.
“In other words,” wrote James and her co-authors, “there was significant bias favoring blacks where decisions to shoot were concerned.”
When confronted by an armed white person, participants took an average of 1.37 seconds to fire back. Confronted by an armed black person, they took 1.61 seconds to fire and were less likely to fire in error. The 240-millisecond* difference may seem small, but it’s enough to be fatal in a shooting.
​

This hesitation occurred even though the electroencephalograph generally identified brain wave patterns indicating significantly greater threat responses against black suspects than white or Hispanic suspects. So then why the difference?
James and her team speculate:

This behavioral ‘counter-bias’ might be rooted in people’s concerns about the social and legal consequences of shooting a member of a historically oppressed racial or ethnic group.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/03/study-people-more-likely-to-shoot-white

​

 

[What 23]

Yes.

A new study in the Journal of Experimental Criminology finds in an experiment measuring the reactions of participants to various threatening situations that people tended to pull the trigger faster when confronted by armed white suspects. This sounds counterintuitive to most people (including me). A 2001 Bureau of Justice Statisticsreport (latest available) analyzed justifiable homicides and noted:

Felons justifiably killed by police represent a tiny fraction of the total population. Of the 183 million whites in 1998, police killed 225; of the 27 million blacks, police killed 127. While the rate (per million population) at which blacks were killed by police in 1998 was about 4 times that of whites, the difference used to be much wider: the black rate in 1978 was 8 times the white rate.
​

The BJS study also found that black suspects were also as likely to shoot at police as be shot at.
In the deadly force experiments participants (85 percent white) face a life-sized HD video screen on which the stance, clothing, hand motions, objects being held, and race of suspects can all be modified. The subjects are hooked up to brain wave measuring devices and can respond using a laser gun. The press materials from Washington State University detailing the results report:

Participants in an innovative Washington State University study of deadly force were more likely to feel threatened in scenarios involving black people. But when it came time to shoot, participants were biased in favor of black suspects, taking longer to pull the trigger against them than against armed white or Hispanic suspects...
[WSU researcher Lois] James’ study is a follow-up to one in which she found active police officers, military personnel and the general public took longer to shoot black suspects than white or Hispanic suspects. Participants were also more likely to shoot unarmed white suspects than black or Hispanic ones and more likely to fail to fire at armed black suspects.
“In other words,” wrote James and her co-authors, “there was significant bias favoring blacks where decisions to shoot were concerned.”
When confronted by an armed white person, participants took an average of 1.37 seconds to fire back. Confronted by an armed black person, they took 1.61 seconds to fire and were less likely to fire in error. The 240-millisecond* difference may seem small, but it’s enough to be fatal in a shooting.
​

This hesitation occurred even though the electroencephalograph generally identified brain wave patterns indicating significantly greater threat responses against black suspects than white or Hispanic suspects. So then why the difference?
James and her team speculate:

This behavioral ‘counter-bias’ might be rooted in people’s concerns about the social and legal consequences of shooting a member of a historically oppressed racial or ethnic group.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/03/study-people-more-likely-to-shoot-white

​

I'm glad you are here.

 

[paranoid android]

And PA I don't care about your Marxist stuff. I'm pretty sure the Irish and Italian deal was religious as well.

Actually it had little to do with religion except that the ruling class where White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. It was far more of a ethnic divide then anything else.

 

[LosBlancos]

Actually it had little to do with religion except that the ruling class where White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. It was far more of a ethnic divide then anything else.

This is a testament to the upwards mobility inherent in American society. Despite the people claiming that emigration is only for wealthy, most Italians and Irish came here with nothing but the shirt on their backs and after a generation or two of living in the states were quickly able to improve their circumstances. Not by some radical redistribution of wealth from the "ruling class of White Anglo Saxon Protestants" but rather by hard work.

 

[Kenickie]

I think its a serious topic that doesnt need to be lightened up. Im not a lil homie either, sorry.

not that serious when it's just a thread about how savage black people are, never mind that there are real issues which run underneath the surface of this killing. 48 hours and a protest later i have yet to hear one single black person tell me about how it's this dead body that lay there for four and a half hours that people are protesting. ferguson is the catalyst, not the real issue. the issues are deep and wide and go way beyond police brutality, or militarization of the police, or even the deadened silence that comes from being a person of colour with a complaint. we're talking voter suppression, work place pay discrimination, systemic ignorance of violence and trafficking of black women and children, hunger, lack of health care (i'm more likely to die in america giving birth to a black baby than a woman in almost any part of africa) etc etc. riots are the language of the unheard, and i guess they got your attention, didn't they? doesn't matter thought, we're still all too concerned about the proper circumstance to execute possible teenage shoplifters or african immigrants or grooms on their wedding days.

and yeah you're just a lil homie. how else will you get any street cred? be cool man, i'm just trying to help you out here.

 

[nuttynutskin]

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

It's all proportionate to how much crime they commit. It's the criminal justice system, not Harvard admissions. Police don't go out and say we need 3 Blacks today, 3 Whites, 2 Indians and a Chinese guy. It's not like that. Whoeever commits the crime gets arrested.

But that's not the case from what we can tell. Black and white teens have equal rates of illegal drug use, but black teens are more likely to be arrested and charged.

Stop and frisk in NYC is horribly biased (blacks are 10x more likely to be stopped and frisked than whites, although roughly 9 out of 10 people stopped are never accused of a crime).

We're also seeing a biased criminal justice system for convinctions - minority offenders receive harsher sentences, even when other factors are accounted for.

 

[legalizeall]

alasdair

Some people here give What 23 alot of shit sometimes. Seems like sometimes people are on the edge of their seat ready to reply instantly to things he says. Usually little to do with what he has talked about but just mostly character bashing. Some might not agree with what he says but the more I see his posts, the more I think he isnt racist at all. Their just isnt that hateful, aggressive tone that somebody who is actually racist has. I here more hate from bit pattern directed at him then anything ive seen him post. Like somebody said, he says things that most people think but are to afraid to say and I can respect that especially during times like today. We all are judgmental in someway with members of society. It something you cant help. I dont think he out right hates groups of people purely on skin color.

 

[paranoid android]

alasdair

Ah shit guess What23's deleted stuff went down the rabbit hole

This is a testament to the upwards mobility inherent in American society. Despite the people claiming that emigration is only for wealthy, most Italians and Irish came here with nothing but the shirt on their backs and after a generation or two of living in the states were quickly able to improve their circumstances. Not by some radical redistribution of wealth from the "ruling class of White Anglo Saxon Protestants" but rather by hard work.

Really? I thought they would have left their homelands just because they liked the idea of crossing the Atlantic and leaving their families behind (though after the famine there would have been nothing but their homeland to cling onto for the Irish) and their home country behind . The Irish more or less laid the blueprint for organized crime in America as they just where not accepted into high society just like the Italians, Jews, etc where not ether. Hence they had to form their own ways of making money the highlight of it all probably being when a nice little experiment called Prohibition came into place and the Irish, Jewish and Italian mobs ran the rackets. When you look at it it's no different then how many of the working class make their money today regardless of race except substitute crack (or the DOC of your town) for booze. There are far more drug dealers then legitimate business people in the area i live in and it's sure as shit not the blacks running it it's out of economic necessity.

This is why the working class has to get on a level playing field instead of being bogged down in identity politics. You can't have a revolution as long as a large minority stay divided and the ruling class fully knows this. We must all Liberate ourselves from such backwards notions as racism before we can actually become free. Then maybe we can actually take what's ours instead of begging for scraps from the wealthy.

 

[What 23]

if only Abe wasn't killed.

Kenickie- I don't understand half of what you just said. How is a black woman more likely to die, for instance, giving birth in the U.S. than Africa, and what is that a reflection of if so? I've never heard this. And I can't tell if you are being serious or just trolling. On that though I admit ignorance. Please enlighten.

And yea, rioters got the attention. It's embarrassing. Maybe some change will come... But I think it would have come better, more positively, had they remained peaceful. All they did was reinforce stereotypes, and those that go above, will have to go above. They were flailing idiots. Graceless. If they- their actions are in any way good, so is disease. So is an infection. They should not be commended, or encouraged.

 

[legalizeall]

Did anyone actually read any of that?

 

[paranoid android]

And yea, rioters got the attention. It's embarrassing. Maybe some change will come... But I think it would have come better, more positively, had they remained peaceful. All they did was reinforce stereotypes, and those that go above, will have to go above. They were flailing idiots. Graceless. If they- their actions are in any way good, so is disease. So is an infection. They should not be commended, or encouraged.

I think the if only they where more moderate and more peaceful then maybe they could be taken seriously argument is getting worn out just abit. The whole reason these riots happened was because nobody listens to peaceful protests. Sometimes enough if enough because certain people will always see them in a bad light no matter what. If only there demands where more moderate i guess things could be different 8)

 

[Kenickie]

Some people here give What 23 alot of shit sometimes.

idk maybe don't admit to being a statutory rapist? maybe then you won't get shit.

Kenickie- I don't understand half of what you just said. How is a black woman more likely to die, for instance, giving birth in the U.S. than Africa, and what is that a reflection of if so? I've never heard this. And I can't tell if you are being serious or just trolling. On that though I admit ignorance. Please enlighten.

it's not my job to enlighten you. if you don't understand something as simple and as clear cut as references to 'voter suppression', why should i bother trying? you have a computer. computers can google some combination of 'black maternal death rates usa' or 'black voter suppression' or 'human trafficking of african americans' and get an answer. fuck that. with a simple google search, you can put a name to all those dead black people i listed. (michael brown, amadou diallo, sean bell, respectively.) PoC are not responsible for explaining why racism is bad to people who continue to perpetrate it. it's sneering and disrespectful and smacks of something repulsive and childish. be a big boy. take some responsibility for yourself. type some words.

here's a screenshot of a google search about maternal death rates. you can also watch a bunch of movies, pbs specials, bbc special reports, etc about it, since the united states, as the richest country in the world, is the only industrialized country in the world who's maternal death rate is rising. doesn't matter though in this thread, we're here to talk about thieves and thugs and why rioters should be ashamed that they got your attention by acting out of line. heaven knows a dead boy lying in a street for four hours doesn't.

NSFW:

also kevin hart is a little fuck boy, next time do better.

 

[legalizeall]

not that serious when it's just a thread about how savage black people are, never mind that there are real issues which run underneath the surface of this killing. 48 hours and a protest later i have yet to hear one single black person tell me about how it's this dead body that lay there for four and a half hours that people are protesting. ferguson is the catalyst, not the real issue. the issues are deep and wide and go way beyond police brutality, or militarization of the police, or even the deadened silence that comes from being a person of colour with a complaint. we're talking voter suppression, work place pay discrimination, systemic ignorance of violence and trafficking of black women and children, hunger, lack of health care (i'm more likely to die in america giving birth to a black baby than a woman in almost any part of africa) etc etc. riots are the language of the unheard, and i guess they got your attention, didn't they? doesn't matter thought, we're still all too concerned about the proper circumstance to execute possible teenage shoplifters or african immigrants or grooms on their wedding days.

and yeah you're just a lil homie. how else will you get any street cred? be cool man, i'm just trying to help you out here.

hmmm. Barack Obama didnt seem to let that stop him. He is calling for the prosecution of these rioters and looters. Ya i dont know how your helping me out but Im ok. Im not quite as naive as you have so quickly judged me to be. Its all good.

 

[What 23]

you know, I'll look it up later when I can devote more time to this. I'm working. Often people will come back at such posts as yours with things like 'burden of proof', though... It really was on you to be clear. Honestly. Talk about childish.

You pretty much reinforce things. I'm glad I still meet some that keep me open. You aren't one. Not at the moment.

I also didn't mention any of those other things. You used this as a chance to jump. I asked specifically about black mothers dying compared to in Africa, in America. Again, I'll look into it.

I guess looking back at my post it's clear I had trouble with more in your post than that, so, I apologize. It just seemed a bit rantish. It's just hard for me to believe that blacks not having healthcare is because of something like racism. In my city many get free healthcare. Free or greatly reduced. But that's unique as there is a hospital here that gets a lot of donations. I make, or made a low enough amount that I got a 5k surgery for 300 bucks. This doesn't count in the overall, but I saw a lot of blacks getting the same care as me. I just don't play too well with "I'm the victim". Sorry. I really am. I know you are. I can say how I and other might be as well.

 

[LosBlancos]

But that's not the case from what we can tell. Black and white teens have equal rates of illegal drug use, but black teens are more likely to be arrested and charged.

Stop and frisk in NYC is horribly biased (blacks are 10x more likely to be stopped and frisked than whites, although roughly 9 out of 10 people stopped are never accused of a crime).

We're also seeing a biased criminal justice system for convinctions - minority offenders receive harsher sentences, even when other factors are accounted for.

On one hand we have people complaining that their communities are violent and police just show up after the gunshots to examine the dead body, and on the other hand we have Stop and Frisk which is the proactive approach and has resulted in the violent crime rate of New York City dropping substantially. Irregardless of what the police do, it seems there will be complaints.

Did it ever cross your mind the high-crime areas of NYC are inhabited primarily by Blacks? Do you think they would prevent any crime stopping and frisking middle-aged white guys in business suits in the middle of Times Square? If you "Black People Lives Matter" as the Ferguson protestors so proudly display on their signs you should support NYC's initiatives because they have resulted in a severely reduced murder rate. I wouldn't doubt that countless lives have been saved by Stop and Frisk either through the deterrant aspect of it, or actually finding a criminal illegally possessing a gun who had intentions of killing or robbing with it later.

 

[legalizeall]

I think the if only they where more moderate and more peaceful then maybe they could be taken seriously argument is getting worn out just abit. The whole reason these riots happened was because nobody listens to peaceful protests. Sometimes enough if enough because certain people will always see them in a bad light no matter what. If only there demands where more moderate i guess things could be different 8)

Nobody listens to violent protests either. Dont you think the rodney king trial riots 22 years ago should have done something. Those were way more violent than this with 53 people dying, billions of dollars in damage, and the worse they had seen for over a hundred years.

 

[LosBlancos]

(i'm more likely to die in america giving birth to a black baby than a woman in almost any part of africa)

Name one African country with a lower maternal mortality rate than that of Blacks in the United States. Just one.