(tds) found my friends today they're in my head

[methamaniac]

So let me explain. I have been battling these guys for a while now. No, I'm not schizophrenic but I recognize these guys. Someone who is schizo has lost touch with reality. Contrary to popular belief schizophrenia is not the same as multiple personality disorder. I think we all have MPD, but the ones with the problem have lost touch with reality. The very fact you have two distinct parts of your mind, one that wants to do the right thing and one that doesn't often do what you want the other part wants is enough to meet standard of MPD.
I have one part of me that constantly wants to flood me with negative thoughts and another part who wants to be optimistic. And then even another part that says, cant we all just get along

Kids often manifest this dichotomy as an imaginary friend who they blaim bad behavior on. Some recognize it as conviction. The angel and devil on your shoulder if you will. Seems the only way to be "sane" (whatever that is) is to be on one side or other. Trying to ride the fence will drive you mad. Lol
I guess your known by the company you keep....

 

[VitamaN]

hm. Interesting. In solitary confinement I had to imagine my friends. I had to imagine they were in my cell with me. I was able to take the part of my mind that was inhabited by these loved ones and extract their imagine to the point where I could literally see them sitting the corner of my cell. I don't hang out with those people anymore... but they're in my head.
Still show up in my dreams.
And its ALLLLL me.

 

[bdomihizayka]

The self is discontinuous.... you cannot find any reference points to verify a "self". Buddhist philosophy, but completely true. Who IS anyone?

I like this, I don't want that, I need this, I don't like her, should I do this.... if you pay close attention to these, you will realize that your "I"s change.....

If you sat for 6 hours a day and mediated by staring at the wall and watching what arises in the mind, you would realize this quite quickly.

The worst addiction of all is the addiction to a self.

 

[methamaniac]

Bdomihizayka,
You're basic premise is self doesn't exist or i dont know if there is a self cause you cant pin it down, therefore it doesn't exist.

You wrote:
"The self is discontinuous.... you cannot find any reference points to verify a "self"."

How do you make that assertion without invoking your "self". You're trying to use self to prove self doesn't exist--your caught in a circle. If self is an illusion how do you trust your judgements. This smells of Kant. "Ghost dont exist, says the ghost"

You wrote:
"if you pay close attention to these, you will realize that your "I"s change.."

Really how so?
How bout you put "John" in.
John like this, John dont want that, John need that, John dont like her, should John do this.
There all referring to John him "self". Be different if it was John, Jane, Jim, Jack, Jill, respectively. Not the case tho.
The "I" is the same. Even when you break it into different parts of self---they all stream into a singularity of conscienceness. The root of a tree has a seperate function from leaf but it is still part of "one"--- a tree.
Your saying something like does leaf define root or root define leaf, how can we know? ....but the argument is logically flawed. The leaf and root are defined only in concept of tree because they co exist to make up a tree. Remove one and you have no tree. Only way to get around this is say I not even sure if a tree exist. Or more to the point that we our "self" exist. Obviously were here aren't we?

Something else to note which is related is the "subject ---object problem". We can not observe conscienceness/self from the outside. With conscienceness there is no subject and no object. The subject is the object---You are conscienceness.
Jus my opinion not criticizing you personally just concept of self. Conscienceness of self have baffled man and science since antiquity

You may see logical paradoxes but at some point we have to deal with that chicken and egg problem because there has to be an answer as unlogical as it seems because we are here. To throw your hands up and say nothing really exists cause I cant explain existence is not rational imo.
I have a good idea where conscience comes from
^ ^

 

[neversickanymore]

Location
babysitting the argument in my head

welcome to the debate

 

[Smoky]

Yes, I have them also. The hidden battle of my past in thought. Understanding the nature of conflict of thought or psyche can help communicate with the friends, at least for me… or to not listen to them finding a stillness beyond the arguments.

We all have an internal dialogue that speaks to us… sometimes even internalized in the womb. Most often, at least for me ... I carry various selves within that speak to me. Some say this is split personas, dissociative states, or yet multiple personality disorders. The super ego or the inner critic can sometimes represent an authority figure from our youth, messages carried within for example - which can speak in harmful ways, more disciplined ways…. but also keep me on my toes. Or very loving ways. Sometimes, there is a first thought, a reactionary second thought, then a realization of the two that is another thought in itself. Even awareness of thought is thought.

Basically many of these thoughts (or voices) can be our loved ones which can thread way back. There is no need to identify, ime.
Am I that thought that is speaking to me? IF that makes sense. Not necessarily. I am not a separate entity.

 

[methamaniac]

Getting easier to turn these guys off. The mental side to withdrawl is tough. Its like a bad trip you cant come down of.
The brain just fascinates me in general. Modern science is finding it to be very complex and still baffled on conscienceness. Trying to identify it and label it takes you down a rabbit hole that I cant explain, nor am I willing to see how deep it is right now.

Consciencesness is an abstract idea I guess that can only be explained abstractly. I guess thats why it can be best illustrated metaphorically. When you try to put it in a box and explain it like a computer just processing information, it doesn't want to seem to sit still in the box, and even still seems to jump outside the box.
Perhaps meditation does help bring it into focus. It just seems when you try to grab the tale end it is gone in a flash.

 

[straightrazor]

Bdomihizayka,
You're basic premise is self doesn't exist or i dont know if there is a self cause you cant pin it down, therefore it doesn't exist.

How do you make that assertion without invoking your "self". You're trying to use self to prove self doesn't exist--your caught in a circle. If self is an illusion how do you trust your judgements. This smells of Kant. "Ghost dont exist, says the ghost"

I feel like the following is applicable to this discussion:

The self, the ‘me’, is an illusion, not because it doesn’t exist, but because it doesn’t exist in the way we imagine it to. You are not what you think you are. The ‘me’ seems to be solid and separate – a ‘thing’ at the centre of life, a separate entity running my life – in the same way that there seems to be a wave separate from the ocean – but upon investigation, those assumptions crumble. The ‘illusion’ is seen through – the wave is inseparable from the ocean.

Now, it might also help if I were a little more clear about what the word ‘existence’ actually means. In the past I used to use this without realising what it actually meant. It literally means ‘stand out’ (ex-sistere).

Does the wave ‘stand out’ of the ocean? Yes, it appears to, AND no, it doesn’t stand out in reality, because it IS the ocean. Depends on the angle from which you’re answering the question. Both are true, both are not true. The wave appears to exist, AND it does not exist – it does not exist SEPARATELY from the ocean. If it has an existence, that existence is inseperable from the whole.

In the same way, the ‘self’ (the story of me) only exists as a story. I never, ever found Jeff outside of a presently-arising story about Jeff. Jeff is not there ‘lurking’ in the background – the story of Jeff appears and disappears as a story.

The story of Jeff does not appear to Jeff – that would be another story! The story of Jeff simply appears.

And where does every story appear? Here, in this wide, clear open space – awareness, consciousness, Being, Life, doesn’t really matter what words you use to point here. They’re just words. Perhaps this is what some are referring to as the space of ‘no self’. You could say the story of the self arises and falls in this space pointed to by the words ‘no self’. Every story, every thought, every sensation, every form, comes and goes in this open space.

tl;dr: "self" is a manifestation of consciousness. through meditation it is possible to realize the illusory nature of the "self" as it will drop away and you are left simply with unadulterated awareness with infinite potential.

or maybe I am just one of the crazies who took to much from mediation and psychedelics

 

[methamaniac]

STRAIGRAZOR:
It does help to define terms in order to be on same playing field. I agree with this. But has got many a philosopher trouble. I'm defining "self" as conscienceness for sake of my argument. I also can make an excellent case for why if needed. You have to use a single definition in order to avoid moving goal posts.
The "Ocean"definition would include everything that makes an ocean. The conscience includes anything that makes it up. It does not imo exist because of processes that flow into it no matter how you define them, THEY exist because it enables them to exist is my assertion.

Basically that conscienceness is its own entity. I'm sure you could argue consciencesness exits because of the things that define it, I'm going outside that chicken and egg and marking statement conscienceness came FIRST--in essence you could pin me down to chicken. But where did chicken come from? Ceator-- God--the uncaused causer.

And No, I dont have to keep applying same principle to this creator for it to exist. Just that for this closed system (universe) something does not come from nothing. Outside universe I dont know. Cause I dont know what I dont know I cant pass my assertion to something outside this universe. I only know what this creator allows me to know. LOL I will not drive myself literally mad trying to solve infinity as Protagoras did.
I am aware this requires faith, seems to be a prerequisite. But I could very easily, as many have, argue we all put faith in something.

Wew ,ok, Here's what I disagree with:

Bbomihizayka asserts that not sure if you can know if self exists because it could be an illusion , so therefore Icant say one way or other. An agnostic approach if you will.
You take the plunge and make the premise it does not exist by using assumption of it existing only as an illusion. An atheistic approach if you will.
BUT you are using the same "logic de circle" as
BDOMIHIZAYKA. Your both basiclly using a Buddhism philosophy.

You wrote:
" the self,"me, is an illusion"

But if so u then use what this illusion interprets to disprove the illusion. Illusion disproving illusion, another example of "Ghost dont exist says the ghost". Again how can we/you trust your senses if they are derived from an illusion? You cant know if anything is necessarily true with that logic.

You wrote:
"Both are true, and both are not true"

Do whut? In context of self?
Explain to me how self can be absolutley true and absolutley false at precisley the same time. (See law of contradiction)
Yes, I am aware of point of view ( "I like spinach"
true for Popeye not true for Olive oil, but Popeye or Olive cant like spinach and dislike spinach at same time)
This is where defining /redefining terms can get you in trouble.
BUT here is thd crux of the issue. Consciencesness as we understand it either exits or it doesn't . It is an illusion or it isn't. Cant be both.

You Wrote:
"through meditation it is possible to see the illusory nature of self"

You and BDOMIHIZAYKA both fall victim to medetation as a type of Savior if you will. A vehicle that defines illusions by using illusion. Medetation cant allow you to make false assertions. Some things just are whether you like them or not. "The world exists whether you like it or not"- God (of my understanding) does not need man in order to be defined,, it the opposite man needs God to define man. There is nothing that says I have to understand something in totality for it to exist. I dont have to know "mind of God" in order for this entity to exist. Same for conscienceness, not understanding why it exists does not mean it doesn't exist.

Thanks for bearing through post and not takkng my opinions personally. Philosophic concepts tend to be "long winded" and opinionated.
Eben Alexander III a neurosurgeon ,and near death survivor, has some good books on the subject of consciencesness. He is working on book that delves into the separation of brain and conscienceness. Should be out soon.

 

[bdomihizayka]

You need to stop thinking and start sitting. Meditate for a few hours a day and see what happens.... just sit cross-legged, hands in the cosmic mudra position, and look at the wall. I do this for 7 hours a day.

Meditation transcends illusion.

Why is there something rather than nothing? Well, prove to me there is, indeed something!! Prove to me the world exists.... You'll realize you can't.

 

[methamaniac]

BDOMIHIZAYKA,
Thanks for response. I definitely think too much sometimes. I like examing things kinda a hobby. Its a double edged sword sometimes. Right now trying to recover my mind seems to race all over the place. It is when things are quite and still it roams the most. Random thoughts. I'm sure exasturbated by withdrawl.
I tried meditating and noise got louder. I couldn't imagine sitting still for seven hours. I'm a hyperactive person. This would be torture. I try instead to find activities that relax me , like hiking/reading when I am sitting still.
I know a lot of people swear by meditation. If it works for you wear it out!!
I just cant "unplug". It would be nice to be calmer in everyday life as a lot of people report from meditation. I just spent so much time numb on drugs I'm enjoying feeling again and having an imagination again. Being able to think abstractly. Things are just making more sense now. I am smelling the roses. Its just that it has a side effect of going to extremes. Not surprising uh, an addict taking things to the extreme. I just want to learn to focus this thought. Maybe meditation could help with this.
All religions seem to have a form of meditation/prayer. There is definitely something to it.
Maybe with time and sobriety I can find ultimate
peace between my ears without having to dull my senses to get it.
Being at peace is definitely a blessing/ a gift.
Search continues......

 

[bdomihizayka]

Hey man

I live in a Buddhist monastery, that's why I meditate so often.

The purpose of meditation is not to clear the mind and reach some kind of peaceful state.... it's to raise awareness... to be aware of the space where your thoughts arise. Thoughts are like clouds, they are pretty and interesting, but they are none of your business. Feelings and emotions are just thoughts played in high speed. When you learn the fundamental nature of the mind, and how chaotic it is, you will transcend suffering.

Sit for an hour a day-- like I said, cross-legged on the ground facing the wall with your hands in the cosmic mudra position.... and just be aware of the thoughts that arise. The 3 posions of Buddhism are passion, aggression, and ignorance. Don't chase any of your thoughts (passion), don't push any thoughts away (aggression), and don't try to look away or ignore any thoughts (ignorance).... just be aware of them and watch them without commentary..... if you do this for one hour a day, I promise you, it will change you and you will not regret one minute of meditation.

 

[methamaniac]

BDOMIHIZAYKA,
Thanks for your comments. It is clear your trying to help. And you have. I need to make time for my quite time/meditation/ prayer.
We may differ on the use of meditation, but that's ok.
I think everyone should ask themselves--honestly

1.who am I?
2.why am I here?
3. where am I going?

If you answer all I dont care, you may very well be missing something. And you only get one go around ( that we know of) so you better be sure.
If you answer I dont know, you need to see if there are any answers out there.
I truly believe I can answer these questions. I just need to practice what I believe.

I still say that one cant say conscienceness doesn't exist. I'm not sure is fair I guess.
I just cant sidestep questions above by taking "I" out of the equation.
If we are just spinning around on this rock with no purpose, why does anything at all matter.
Why not just get it over with. Why even look for peace/enlightenment/awareness just do what makes you happy even if it does have negative consequences --unhappiness is unavoidable.

For me the shear astonishment at the improbability of existence is enough for me to believe in something rather than nothing. The odds of the four bit DNA forming by chance are mind boggling.
Even atheistic scientist are now believing in multiple universes because of odds (absolutley outstanding) of cosmological constant.
Lol Hell, you got a lot of people today who believe in alien seeding (panspermia--old Greek idea) to address Abiogenisis and have something bigger than self to believe in. But forget to answer the begged question of, who seeded the aliens?
Any who, enough rambling for now.
I appreciate your suggestions. I will give the sitting positions and starring at wall a try.
Good luck on your journey.
PEACE