Reports on PARGY-LAD (newly offered lysergamide)?

[kman1898]

I edited a source name out of the above post... we don't discuss sources here.

Thanks I didn't mean to. Didn't even realize I had until I saw the snip!

 

[kman1898]

Just talked to Dr. Nichols and he's told me when they ran tests on pargy-lad and it was inactive.

I've asked him for more details on this such as amounts used and other things. I'll post his reply once he messages back.

Also relative to PARGY-LAD being inactive, Dr. Nichols said, "A few milligrams was enough for receptor binding and some rat tests." He's not always the most descriptive and helpful source of information but I think that it speaks volumes...more so than the limited testing shulgin did.

 

[weirdling]

Also relative to PARGY-LAD being inactive, Dr. Nichols said, "A few milligrams was enough for receptor binding and some rat tests." He's not always the most descriptive and helpful source of information but I think that it speaks volumes...more so than the limited testing shulgin did.

Well, Dr. Nichols is also on record as saying that the NBOMEs are inactive. Which, given that they need to be dosed sublingually to get the optimal effect, is not surprising at all - I don't suppose that the lab rats who partook in the NBOMe tests were taught to hold a blotter under their tongue and make sure not to swallow saliva That sort of thing is inevitably going to happen if you are not allowed to let a human lab animal have a go at the compound.

Although, if they did not find activity with in vitro receptor binding tests, that does sound pretty damning, I suppose.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Pargy-LAD only mentioned as a hypothetical possibility in TIHKAL, and never actually bio-assayed by Shulgin (at least that we know of)? I don't have the full TIHKAL book, I'm afraid - I'd love to get an e-book version, but sadly it's not available.

 

[OnMyWayHome]

Well, Dr. Nichols is also on record as saying that the NBOMEs are inactive. Which, given that they need to be dosed sublingually to get the optimal effect, is not surprising at all - I don't suppose that the lab rats who partook in the NBOMe tests were taught to hold a blotter under their tongue and make sure not to swallow saliva That sort of thing is inevitably going to happen if you are not allowed to let a human lab animal have a go at the compound.

Although, if they did not find activity with in vitro receptor binding tests, that does sound pretty damning, I suppose.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Pargy-LAD only mentioned as a hypothetical possibility in TIHKAL, and never actually bio-assayed by Shulgin (at least that we know of)? I don't have the full TIHKAL book, I'm afraid - I'd love to get an e-book version, but sadly it's not available.

TiHKAL is readily available for free..

 

[Jonneh]

Although, if they did not find activity with in vitro receptor binding tests, that does sound pretty damning, I suppose.

Who knows what happens to the molecule in the presence of enzymes. The bioassay is the definitive test.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Pargy-LAD only mentioned as a hypothetical possibility in TIHKAL, and never actually bio-assayed by Shulgin (at least that we know of)?

You're wrong. From TiHKAL (the chemical story is available free at Erowid, among other places): N-Propynyl-nor-LSD (PARGY-LAD). Some activity at 160 µg. Active at 500 µg.

 

[Transform]

Well, Dr. Nichols is also on record as saying that the NBOMEs are inactive. Which, given that they need to be dosed sublingually to get the optimal effect, is not surprising at all - I don't suppose that the lab rats who partook in the NBOMe tests were taught to hold a blotter under their tongue and make sure not to swallow saliva That sort of thing is inevitably going to happen if you are not allowed to let a human lab animal have a go at the compound.

I have heard a rumor that this was a deliberate attempt to prevent it reaching the market. Almost all early animal trials will be IP or IV because of the inconsistency of other ROAs

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Pargy-LAD only mentioned as a hypothetical possibility in TIHKAL, and never actually bio-assayed by Shulgin (at least that we know of)? I don't have the full TIHKAL book, I'm afraid - I'd love to get an e-book version, but sadly it's not available.

The second half of the book (chemistry and assays) is available through erowid. The first part of the book isn't and is well worth buying a copy for.

 

[kman1898]

Who knows what happens to the molecule in the presence of enzymes. The bioassay is the definitive test.



You're wrong. From TiHKAL (the chemical story is available free at Erowid, among other places): N-Propynyl-nor-LSD (PARGY-LAD). Some activity at 160 µg. Active at 500 µg.

First of all I wouldn't say he's wrong.... Some activity at 160 µg. Active at 500 µg is hardly a description. Which leads me, and others I've talked to, to believe he never even tried pargy. He could've used Nichols data for all we know.

To further back myself up I've included something's based on a lot of the research I've done. I've come to the conclusion that many of these substances shulgin references in he's book, he's not making or not necessarily even trip testing them for that matter. Just one easy example, when you look at ALD-52's entry it says, "This material has been explored in the 50-175 microgram range and there are a number of human trials reported, with varying conclusions." IE shulgin never tried it nor synthesized it for that matter. This is the same for many substances and in the documentary dirty pictures he even discusses how many of the chems he tested on himself were ordered rather than synthed. To me this is a huge flaw in his book because he doesn't detail where his trip testing and synthesizing stopped and his third party reporting on substances began.

When people read from shulgin, "Some activity at 160 µg. Active at 500 µg.", they typically take it as truth and I argue it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Jonneh]

First of all I wouldn't say he's wrong.... Some activity at 160 µg. Active at 500 µg is hardly a description. ... When people read from shulgin, "Some activity at 160 µg. Active at 500 µg.", they typically take it as truth and I argue it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Mr Weirdling mentioned that PARGY-LAD may only have been a 'hypothetical possibility' (unsertandably, since he or she hadn't read the PRO-LAD TiHKAL entry), but I would hope we all trust Mr Shulgin enough to believe the compound actually exists. As for whether Sasha tried (or synthesised) it himself, I don't know. He, in turn, may be placing trust in whatever was reported in the literature. There are clearly many things up in the air here, but I'd still trust Shulgin's secondary reporting of activity in a bioassay over reported in vitro receptor binding results (especially given what Transform said) in terms of predicting activity.

If what you're saying is that 500 µg might not be (anywhere near) an average single dose, I agree that that is a possibility.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Mr Shulgin was very clear in several places that he hadn't tried every chemical in the book, in fact the PRO-LAD section says "several analogues are in the chemical literature" Fairly sure it isn't the only example where precise details are scarce and he could go only on what was reported.

 

[weirdling]

Mr Weirdling mentioned that PARGY-LAD may only have been a 'hypothetical possibility' (unsertandably, since he or she hadn't read the PRO-LAD TiHKAL entry), but I would hope we all trust Mr Shulgin enough to believe the compound actually exists. As for whether Sasha tried (or synthesised) it himself, I don't know. He, in turn, may be placing trust in whatever was reported in the literature. There are clearly many things up in the air here, but I'd still trust Shulgin's secondary reporting of activity in a bioassay over reported in vitro receptor binding results (especially given what Transform said) in terms of predicting activity.

If what you're saying is that 500 µg might not be (anywhere near) an average single dose, I agree that that is a possibility.

I actually posted with prior knowledge of the PRO-LAD entry - the language is in my opinion a little ambiguous.

Just so that we don't beat around the bush:

With success in the preparation of the rather stable nor-LSD intermediate, any number of 6-substituted nor-LSD homologues and analogues can be synthesized. Simply use the appropriate alkyl bromide or alkyl iodide and the desired product will be in hand, after a modest amount of rather sophisticated purification at a micro scale. Several analogues are in the chemical literature, and some of them have been explored in direct comparison to LSD. Here are a few examples:

N-Propynyl-nor-LSD (PARGY-LAD). Some activity at 160 µg. Active at 500 µg.
...

Notice that at no point does he say that he synthed and sampled PARGY-LAD himself. He might have been quoting literature, to which he indeed alludes to in the very same paragraph. Why wouldn't he include a separate entry for PARGY-LAD in TIHKAL, had he had first hand data about the synthesis and bio-assays? It's not like there aren't any other not particularly exciting compounds in the *IHKALs .

If he was quoting literature, I'd say that all bets are off. We don't know what sort of activity was reported - perhaps it made people uncomfortable and dysphoric at 500ug and the drug was abandoned as a dead end. It's not like all lysergic acid derivatives are psychedelic drugs.

I located the 1985 "Synthesis and LSD-like discriminative stimulus properties in a series of N(6)-alkyl norlysergic acid N,N-diethylamide derivatives" article from David Nichols which is mentioned on the PARGY-LAD wikipedia page. Well, wherever did the reference for the 160ug and 500ug numbers come from, it wasn't from this paper. To be perfectly honest, I don't even know if this paper discusses PARGY-LAD at all. I gave decoding the formulas an honest try, but I failed. Perhaps someone with mad o-chem skillz could point out a section in the paper which pertains to PARGY-LAD for the benefit of the unwashed masses?

 

[kman1898]

Mr Weirdling mentioned that PARGY-LAD may only have been a 'hypothetical possibility' (unsertandably, since he or she hadn't read the PRO-LAD TiHKAL entry), but I would hope we all trust Mr Shulgin enough to believe the compound actually exists. As for whether Sasha tried (or synthesised) it himself, I don't know. He, in turn, may be placing trust in whatever was reported in the literature. There are clearly many things up in the air here, but I'd still trust Shulgin's secondary reporting of activity in a bioassay over reported in vitro receptor binding results (especially given what Transform said) in terms of predicting activity.

If what you're saying is that 500 µg might not be (anywhere near) an average single dose, I agree that that is a possibility.

I agree I still supporr his secondary testing but almost know comments on effects of that's subs screams to me he used literature not testing. Heck even in pihkal chapeter 3 he mentions is how he orders lsd as as apposed to making it. Look into chapter 3

 

[Jonneh]

I located the 1985 "Synthesis and LSD-like discriminative stimulus properties in a series of N(6)-alkyl norlysergic acid N,N-diethylamide derivatives" article from David Nichols which is mentioned on the PARGY-LAD wikipedia page. Well, wherever did the reference for the 160ug and 500ug numbers come from, it wasn't from this paper. To be perfectly honest, I don't even know if this paper discusses PARGY-LAD at all. I gave decoding the formulas an honest try, but I failed.

You're right, it isn't there. PRO-LAD, ETH-LAD and AL-LAD make an appearance, but not old PARGY. The numbers '160' and '500' could have been expressed in nM/kg, in which case one might have missed them, but this is moot as an N(6)-propynyl compound is never discussed. Not sure where it comes from!

 

[Transform]

I do not believe the paper discussed PARGY LAD at all.

To clarify, Nichols supposedly only misled about the NBOMes because he didn't want the "cat to leave the bag" so to speak. This wouldn't be an issue with PARGY-LAD and I would take his comments on it at face value.

 

[kman1898]

I agree I still supporr his secondary testing but almost know comments on effects of that's subs screams to me he used literature not testing. Heck even in pihkal chapeter 3 he mentions is how he orders lsd as as apposed to making it. Look into chapter 3

I already discussed in UKchem research that he explains in Burt chapeter 3 not only how he obtains LSD from a complay but also that his co worker noticed it had a bitter taste. So he bought his own lsd and never made it. This is the same for many of his molecules...especially the ones lacking main entries in Tikal and pihkal.

 

[kman1898]

I do not believe the paper discussed PARGY LAD at all.

To clarify, Nichols supposedly only misled about the NBOMes because he didn't want the "cat to leave the bag" so to speak. This wouldn't be an issue with PARGY-LAD and I would take his comments on it at face value.

Exactly, here's what Nichols had to say...No, they were all active after intraperitoneal injection. The NBOMe compounds are active after injection.

 

[al-laddin]

Yes......I always bring up the fact that even in Tihkal Shulgin mentions that LSD is bitter. IME LSD is NEAR tasteless in reasonable dosages but theres always a vague bitter taste on every strong blotter Ive ever had...this includes the two recent analogues....I conclude that LSD has a taste.

 

[pofacedhoe]

As a matter of fact, I have found AL-LAD more delightful than LSD in all departments. Whereas LSZ was nothing like it, absolutely different character to this one. Lysergamides are pretty unique and hold a great potential imho.

same

 

[roi]

Please note that the supplier of this (fake) "PARGY-LAD" now also sold illegal Cathinone as "4-AcO-DALT", see WEDINOS sample W002700.

Don't trust the product, don't trust the vendor.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Now that the PARGY's over so to speak, I think you deserve some accolades for making noise from early on about this scam Roi. You probably saved a lot of people from getting burned.

 

[Si Dread]

Yeah, & I put my hand up & admit I was wrong, you were right!

Please note that the supplier of this (fake) "PARGY-LAD" now also sold illegal Cathinone as "4-AcO-DALT", see WEDINOS sample W002700.

Don't trust the product, don't trust the vendor.

edit - Oh... &... what exactly the fuck is this guy about?