Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

[max_freakout]

You can't think your mind is broken if you no longer exist as an entity separate from the universe.

the part of your mind that creates the impression of being a separate 'self' entity is what "breaks" in ego death

 

[pmoseman]

... an "ego death" as opposed to just a regular psychedelic experience?

What is a regular psychedelic experience? Is an ego-death truly that rare?

 

[swilow]

ego death is not like physical death, rather it is a mental death, this is an important distinction.

ie it isnt as if in ego death you take drugs and then think you are physically dying, like having a heart attack or dying from poison. That is not how ego death feels, rather it feels like mentally dying, as if the mind (not the body) is permanently broken or shattered. It may lead to a desire to physically self-terminate (suicide) but that is separate from the feeling of the mind dying.

So it doesn't actually resemble death at all, though this runs counter to your own previous definitions? I mean, what is "mentally dying" anyway?

Personally, I think there is a mistaken semantic utilisation of the term ego-death here, because prior to this year, I have never heard ego-death associated with fear of dying. The use of a -hyphen- indicates that it is the ego that is dying. I think fear of death or being convinced you are dead is not actually ego-loss, because the construct that fears and needs and desires IS, in humans, the ego. I think its fear of death, nothing more, and fear of death seems to me to be the antithesis of mystical revelation; its a fantastic catalyst though.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Thank you for posting the traditional view of things, willow, I was beginning to wonder if my conceptions were off. Maybe this thread has demonstrated why Izzy and I are loath to accept the term Ego Death. It is itself semantically troublesome, and as a whole does not represent a unitary experience, thus facilitating miscommunication (I also dislike the importance the psychedelically inclined seem to place on the experience, as I've said, it only pressures people into trying to have it and overvaluing it). See how much more we have said by debating it than if we all just accepted the term unconditionally?

we carry this fear with us everywhere and psychedelics can help to liberate us of pointless fears

Verily, verily. Tripping is all about aliveness to me, and I laugh at the idea of death in the midst of the joy of the eternal moment.

 

[swilow]

Maybe this thread has demonstrated why Izzy and I are loath to accept the term Ego Death

Rightly so, I think. Death has nothing to do with it. Death is final, permanent, ongoing (I think), the duration and state of psychedelic egolessness is mediated solely by the body's metabolism of the drug. Very different to the only permanent state yet known.

and as a whole does not represent a unitary experience, thus facilitating miscommunication (I also dislike the importance the psychedelically inclined seem to place on the experience, as I've said, it only pressures people into trying to have it and overvaluing it). See how much more we have said by debating it than if we all just accepted the term unconditionally?

The few ego-loss experiences I've had have been massively heartening to me, as a sufferer of mental illness and addiction. They have helped me recognise that almost all experience is temporary and transient and usually consisting of ego-created delusions that have little actual reality. Of course, ego-loss hasn't done all that much for me at all- the hard work, the REAL work, was done by me and my ego, sober () and sane (). Its not the be-all and end-all, buts its surely something I am pleased to have experienced

FWIW, I will not ever seek this experience out again because I find psychedelics most useful in lower doses. In truth, ego-deathlossdissolutiontomato is hard to work with, though I am glad that my foolishness decided to go for it

FWIW part II, I think dissociatives are more effective then serotonergic psychedelics at initiating such an experience; I believe you expressed some concerns with that earlier in this thread NKBTHR and I sort of share it. Ego-loss is no higher then second on the list of the perfect escapism (death is unquestionably first). For me, death is not that frightening; or, at the very least, life scares me more

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

as a sufferer of mental illness

Which one(s)? I can't recall you stating them. I have been diagnosed with type two bipolar disorder and generalized anxiety disorder, and I suspect I have suffered a couple besides that (I don't tell the shrink everything).

I find psychedelics most useful in lower doses.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, I dosed lower when I wanted to be productive and truly learn something. Truth be told, it's been almost three years since I last tripped, only now do I understand just how healthy psychedelics were for me. I'm eager to return to the laughter of the immortals, but alas, I do not have the ability at present.

Ego-loss is no higher then second on the list of the perfect escapism (death is unquestionably first). For me, death is not that frightening; or, at the very least, life scares me more

You've read my mind. I you dearly, as always.

 

[max_freakout]

So it doesn't actually resemble death at all

it isnt like physical death, so it doesnt involve thinking that you are poisoned, or having a heart attack etc., it is purely mental death, not physical. Ego death does not involve physical pain, but it does involve mental pain (anguish, fear etc).

what is "mentally dying" anyway? .

mentally dying = thinking that you are dead (ie reached the end of life), that is the essential defining characteristic of the ego death experience. Any trip that does not feature this central characteristic is a different thing to ego death.

 

[Ismene]

How can you fear death if nothings wrong with you physically? Surely one precedes the other?

 

[swilow]

Which one(s)? I can't recall you stating them. I have been diagnosed with type two bipolar disorder and generalized anxiety disorder, and I suspect I have suffered a couple besides that (I don't tell the shrink everything).

For me, it has been anxiety and depression really. Diagnosed with all sorts of shit, including general anxiety disorder, panic disorder, depression...Even some weirder shit, but a lot of it was almost iatrogenic from benzo w/d, which gave me blackouts, seizures, panic, psychosis, dissociation/fugue states. As it stands, all illness is in remission currently. I've found a good, drug-free remedy for most of it (meditation), and the rest is tolerable and subsides as I learn more truth.

You seem good atm, and that is good to see

I agree with this wholeheartedly, I dosed lower when I wanted to be productive and truly learn something. Truth be told, it's been almost three years since I last tripped, only now do I understand just how healthy psychedelics were for me. I'm eager to return to the laughter of the immortals, but alas, I do not have the ability at present.

See, I certainly deranged myself with excessive psychedelic use, but I determined to use psychedelics as part of my cure. I admit, a lot of that was hedonistic in some way- I wanted to enjoy my cure. I made contact with some people who 'work' with ayahuasca as a mean to quit drugs in Queensland (northern Australia) through my uncle and really responded to it, even though I spent a lot of my time alone there. But this only worked because the main antagonist in my ordeal, the relentless withdrawal, was over; I'd not do this shit with psychotic symptoms again...

Truly, the cliché- blessing and curse- is so apt with psychedelics. Use them wisely my son use them wisely.

You've read my mind. I you dearly, as always.

And I you

 

[max_freakout]

How can you fear death if nothings wrong with you physically?

perceiving the entire universe coming to a final end is a very frightening experience

 

[Ismene]

How can you think the worlds coming to an end when if you look out the window it looks a thousand times more beautiful and alive than it does when you're sober?

 

[max_freakout]

How can you think the worlds coming to an end when if you look out the window it looks a thousand times more beautiful and alive than it does when you're sober?

asking repetitive irrelevant rhetorical questions doesnt seem to help you to understand what ego death is all about. There is only one way to truly understand, - you have to have the experience yourself, there is no substitute for personal experience. 5 dried grams in silent darkness ought to do it....

 

[Ismene]

I'd barely feel 5 dried grams to be honest. I've taken 15 dried grams countless times. Never felt the universe was coming to an end. What could possibly make you feel anything so utterly ridiculous? You must have a very feverish imagination or be vulnerable to panic attacks.

 

[max_freakout]

if you can barely feel 5 grams then mushrooms probably arent the right drug for you if you want to experience these extreme experiences like ego death, cosmic annihilation etc. Either that or you just need a decent batch of mushrooms. Either way you need to take something that makes you trip hard.


5 grams of mushrooms is normally sufficient for a very powerful trip but some people are much more hardheaded than others unfortunately. Taking 15 grams is simply a waste of mushrooms if it really takes that much to get you to trip properly, you'd be better off taking a lower dose of mushrooms with an mao inhibitor to increase the potency

- It sucks to be a hardhead

 

[Ismene]

No it's nothing to do with being a hard head it's to do with taking so many for so many years. If you're only taking mushrooms once a year perhaps 5 grams will do it for you, when you're taking them 30 or 40 times a year for 5 years it doesn't. Unfortunately.

I've often added moclobemide to mushrooms but that doesn't really increase the potency, it just turns a psilocybin trip into an oral DMT trip.

 

[pmoseman]

It takes me going through a process several times to learn it. Hearing it for the first time, I inevitably misunderstand what is being taught. Then you revisit and ingrain what is being taught; fortunately, I can read or listen to a recorded lecture. The next step is to do it and then you unlearn everything because practice and theory are never quite the same, but I think theory is important and in some cases makes practice secondary to your axial goal.

You can't just ignore the past and expect any really significant impact.

...

Traditionally, seeing the white light has a significance of purifying the ego. Willow made a salient point, fear is ego driven, so there is a flaw in a fear based understanding of ego-death.

I have made the point that removing the ego removes the observer, so it would be a non-experience. This other kind of ego, which is your accumulated definition of the self through learned experience, is identity; it is not a traditional definition of ego.

In the experience of seeing the white light, you lose identity and it must return to you, what you is, the concept of self; it is fondly thought of (sought after) as an immutable/perfect experience.

Semantics are never irrelevant. The rigid definition given verbatim is not explanatory; it is not a living understanding that can be altered to mold with the question.

In the white light experience you have to let go of everything and accept the unknown consequences beforehand. Fear leaves, along with sadness, your life experience drains away and exposes the base of existence. I believe the whole ordeal is best avoided, actually.

 

[Xorkoth]

I'd barely feel 5 dried grams to be honest. I've taken 15 dried grams countless times. Never felt the universe was coming to an end. What could possibly make you feel anything so utterly ridiculous? You must have a very feverish imagination or be vulnerable to panic attacks.

It happens man. Just going to a place so far removed from normal consciousness that it begins to collapse in on itself and you seem to be faced with nonexistence. Many people have had that experience, even if you haven't. I accept that you have not had that experience, even with so many strong trips, even though it doesn't jive with my own experience. Psychedelics make you feel a lot of different things. It's not like, "whoa, this is crazy, I must be about to cease existing". It's more like suddenly you understand WHY you certainly ARE about to cease to exist, it's something you have come to know beyond a doubt, and any attempt at logic as to why it's okay is impossible to believe because you realize it's just a flailing of your selfhood rebelling against the impending annihilation.

 

[swilow]

I'd barely feel 5 dried grams to be honest. I've taken 15 dried grams countless times. Never felt the universe was coming to an end. What could possibly make you feel anything so utterly ridiculous? You must have a very feverish imagination or be vulnerable to panic attacks.

Can I just say, whilst I understand you are playing the cosmic provocateur here, there is nothing strong or weak about being able to tolerate psychedelics. Mental fortitude has no relevance really because its immeasurable and purely speculative to the point that it may not be a real 'thing'. Being able to handle high doses such as 15 grams of mushrooms says nothing about the mind or inner strength; it says only that you have a huge tolerance (tripping on mushrooms 40 times a year??) and that largely explains why the effects appear to be a bit mundane for you. If you really require that sort of dose and need to take it that often, no wonder the experience has diminished. In truth, tolerance plays a huge role in the potency of our experiences and is a variable that needs to be factored in.

Speculative, but when someone says they feel nothing from 5grams and require 15 grams to trip, that is highly unusual and suggestive of other physiological factors at play. I've told you a million times not to exaggerate; is that what's happening here? If not,

I think we can say 2 things; ego-death is uncommon but not so uncommon as to be anomalous. It fits perfectly into the continuum of expected effects from psychedelics. As with every drug, not ever effect will manifest in every user, but that does mean that those effects CANNOT manifest in said users. This doesn't speak of the desirability of such an experience.

 

[Ismene]

Can I just say, whilst I understand you are playing the cosmic provocateur here, there is nothing strong or weak about being able to tolerate psychedelics.

Did you read what I posted? If I was trying to sound "hard" as you claim then I wouldn't have said tolerance was a part of it would I? Although tolerance certainly isn't all of it - I was taking 15 dried grams for at least 2 or 3 years before tolerance became a factor. I simply enjoyed high doses and never had the slightest problem with them so I took them. It was during a period in my life when I'd lost a family member and felt I needed regular trips - and fresh mushrooms were legal to buy in the UK at the time so getting vast quantities wasn't a problem.

Being able to handle high doses such as 15 grams of mushrooms says nothing about the mind or inner strength

I'm not so sure about that Will. It takes a long time to develop tolerance - certainly for the first 2 or 3 years 15 dried grams is still a very powerful dose and takes you to places that 5 grams never could. I doubt you or max could handle 15 dried grams for example - not if you think you're dead after taking 5.


and that largely explains why the effects appear to be a bit mundane for you.

Who said the effects are mundane? The effects are absolutely incredible. I just don't think I'm dead or that the universe is ending. I look out the window and the universe looks fine. Don't try and claim that if you don't have an ego-death your trip must be mundane. That's ridiculous.

Speculative, but when someone says they feel nothing from 5grams and require 15 grams to trip, that is highly unusual and suggestive of other physiological factors at play

As unusual as the ego-death?

What it means is that I like the effects of very high dose mushroom trips. I wish I could get the same effects from 5 grams as I do from 15 because I'd need a lot fewer mushrooms.

 

[swilow]

Did you read what I posted? If I was trying to sound "hard" as you claim then I wouldn't have said tolerance was a part of it would I? Although tolerance certainly isn't all of it - I was taking 15 dried grams for at least 2 or 3 years before tolerance became a factor. I simply enjoyed high doses and never had the slightest problem with them so I took them. It was during a period in my life when I'd lost a family member and felt I needed regular trips - and fresh mushrooms were legal to buy in the UK at the time so getting vast quantities wasn't a problem.

I dunno, but reading your dismissal of ego death and the language you use to belittle it certainly implies that you think there is some weak, herd-like mentality at play. I'm not going to both quoting the numerous times you have said such things because you've continued with it below. I don't understand why you find the concept of ego-death so offensive

I'm not so sure about that Will. It takes a long time to develop tolerance - certainly for the first 2 or 3 years 15 dried grams is still a very powerful dose and takes you to places that 5 grams never could. I doubt you or max could handle 15 dried grams for example - not if you think you're dead after taking 5.

I absolutely KNOW that I COULD NOT handle 15 grams, same as I couldn't handle 500mg of heroin. I wouldn't want to. And most people here would be in the same boat; 5 grams is a high dose, 15 grams is an EXTREMELY HUGE high dose. But there is nothing great about being able to physically tolerate these effects, just as there is nothing great about a heroin user being able to tolerate large amounts of heroin. I find it odd that you would even consider taking 15grams as being desirable or reasonable or that you would mention it largely disclaimer free. Do you not see that as a touch irresponsible?

FWIW, a high dose of any psychedelic would not instantaneously induce ego-loss. And you must read what I write, not what max_freakout writes; I have never thought I was dead during a trip, not once. I've never thought the universe was ending either. I've experienced what I think 'ego-death' aptly describes.

Who said the effects are mundane? The effects are absolutely incredible. I just don't think I'm dead or that the universe is ending. I look out the window and the universe looks fine. Don't try and claim that if you don't have an ego-death your trip must be mundane. That's ridiculous.

I didn't say anywhere that a psychedelic trip without ego death is mundane. If that were so, the vast vast vast majority of my own trips would be mundane. I'm speculating that the motivations to increase your dosage to 15 grams suggests that doses below that were not taking you where you wanted. Perhaps the reason for this was because the effects below those doses were not that interesting or exciting. Of course, perhaps you just like the taste of mushrooms. And, as you say, they were cheap and plentiful. And your tolerance had undoubtedly increased because you mentioned you were tripping 40 times a year.

As unusual as the ego-death?

Probably not, given the higher amount of people claiming ego-death as opposed to those claiming to eat 15 grams of mushrooms. Being able to tolerate that sort of dose is highly unusual.

What it means is that I like the effects of very high dose mushroom trips. I wish I could get the same effects from 5 grams as I do from 15 because I'd need a lot fewer mushrooms.

I wish I could enjoy ultra high dose trips, but I just can't. Its too violent and too disorienting for my poor mind.

Have you enjoyed 4-Ho-MET Is? I find it to contain all the perfect parts of mushrooms and none of the bad.