theacidtest
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 3, 2014
- Messages
- 496
Ya, the model psychosis theory was the earliest one and was quickly abandoned due to being completely inaccurate.
Check the 'acknowledgements' section at the front if you have the paperback version, my name is in there, Andy Roberts is an awesome guy
Model psychosis is the hope that a psychosis temporarily induced by drugs (large amounts of alcohol, cocaine, nitrous, ...?) would reveal what causes actual psychosis.Ya, the model psychosis theory was the earliest one and was quickly abandoned due to being completely inaccurate.
Yes. A psychotic could feel insanely happy and wonderful, as in manic depressive. A bad trip (thought loops) would resemble the opposite of what you got going on.It does say "Thank you Mr Maximillian Freakout".
rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.
Resemble in what sense? Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?
Isn't the "model psychosis" a theory from way back in the 50s offered by psychiatrists who'd never taken the drug
Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?
Resemble in what sense? Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?
Only the psychedelics could accurately be called 'psychotomimetic', and that doesnt mean that they can cause lasting psychotic breaks, rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.
I also don't buy the model psychosis theory. I think it was just doctors attempting to describe something medically with little to no real understanding. I think there is loads of evidence that the psychedelic state is much, much different from psychosis. I don't believe it is psychosis myself (unless it triggers psychosis)... just something dramatically different which can cause people to display some of the same outward signs in some cases.
There are a lot more eggs than chickens and so the egg came first. The joke is that chicken came first in the question.chicken/egg
It does say "Thank you Mr Maximillian Freakout".
rather it means that they cause temporary altered states (the 'trip') which resemble psychosis.
Resemble in what sense? Are most psychotic people happier than they've ever been for example? Unable to stop laughing with joy? Feeling physically wonderful?
lovepsych said:Obviously this individual did not need drugs (or didn't take the right ones) to become psychotic. Not everyone who is psychotic tries to destroy everything in sight for no apparent reason for example. Psychosis takes many different form such as paranoia, delusion thought content, grandiose delusions, ideas of persecution, though blocking, thought insertion etc. The symptoms and behaviors of psychotic individuals are also as diverse. So tripping balls could be seen by another individual as someone having a psychotic episode of some unknown kind. Once they reach ER and the paramedics discover a sheet of LSD in the guys possession it's automatically diagnosed by a treating doctor on arrival at ER as being drug induced psychosis. Non judgmental medical professionals... my ass
I didn't think psychosis was the route to happiness tho. You don't tend to get many psychotics saying "I hope to reach psychosis soon cos I'll be so happy".
Yes they can. There are many different forms of psychotic state.
But if we know that we're tripping, and that any bizarre thoughts or feelings are a result of that, we're not really delusional then are we? Like there's a big difference between formication and delusional parasitosis.
Also, a number of so called delusions are congruent with perfectly ordinary claims of philosophers and theologians, is there some difference in claiming to be a monist or metaphysical idealist, and acutely perceiving the universe to be so, that makes the latter a sufferer of a psychotic delusion?
We do not protest the claim that the people who go running down the street naked yelling out some truth they have discovered, or who think that they have gained the power to psychically manipulate causality, are off their rocker. The issue at hand is whether the thought-content/idea-space of the average psychedelic experience, which is in many ways indistinguishable from experiences induced by mystic disciplines the world over (which are not viewed as problematic), is being mistreated when it is viewed solely through the lens of The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
You know what they say. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
kl519 said:It's more like an "ego loss," because your sense of self didn't die, but it's temporarily lost because you're not capable of thinking that way on that level of a trip
willow said:a state devoid of value and gradation and totally devoid of self, in a place where the concept of actual death is foreign (how can a timeless, universal, unending/unbeginning thin layer of nothingness die???).
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.14 said:For where there is duality, as it were, there one smells another; there one sees another; there on hears another; there one speaks to another; there one thinks of another; there one understands another. But where everything has become just one's own self, then whereby and whom would smell? then whereby and whom would one see? then whereby and whom would one hear? then whereby and to whom would one speak? then whereby and of whom would one think? then whereby and whom would one understand? whereby would one understand him by whom one understands this All? Lo, whereby would one understand the understander?
Why then is it said that after attaining oneness the self has no more consciousness?
Bayazid Bastami said:The first time I made the pilgrimage I saw the house, the second time I made it I saw the Lord of the House, but not the house, but the third time I made it I saw neither the House nor the Lord of the House.
Ghazali said:'Thin is the glass and clear is the wine;
the two are alike---mutual resemblance.
It is as if there were only wine, and no glass at all
Or as if only glass, and no wine there.'
But there is a difference in saying, 'The wine is the wine-glass, and saying, 'It is as if it were the wine-glass'. Now when this state prevails it is called 'annihilation', for [the mystic] is annihilated so far as he himself is concerned, and annihilated too so far as his own annihilation is concerned: he is not conscious of himself in this state, nor is he conscious of his own unconsciousness; for were he conscious of his own unconsciousness, he would be conscious of himself. This condition is metaphorically called ittihad (becoming one with) with reference to the man who is immersed in it, but in the language of truth [it is called] tawhid (to make one).
Saint Teresa of Avila said:We might say that union is as if the ends of two wax candles were joined so that the light they give is one: the wicks and the wax and the light are all one, yet afterwards the one candle can be perfectly well separated from the other and the candles become two again, or the wick may be withdrawn from the wax. But here it is like rain falling from the heavens into a river or a spring; there is nothing but water there and it is impossible to divide or separate the water belonging to the river from that which fell from the heavens. Or it is as if a tiny streamlet enters the sea, from which it will find no way of separating itself, or as if in a room there were two large windows through which the light streamed in: it enters in different places but it all becomes one..... This, I think, the soul may say here, for it is here that the little butterfly to which we have referred dies, and with the greatest joy, because Christ is now its life.
......
there is a self-forgetfulness which is so complete that it really seems as though the soul no longer existed, because it is such that she has neither knowledge nor remembrance that there is either heaven or life or honour for her, so entirely is she employed in seeking the honour of God. It appears that the words which His Majesty addressed to her have produced their effect -- namely, that she must take care of His business and He will take care of hers. And thus, happen what may, she does not mind in the least, but lives in so strange a state of forgetfulness that, as I say, she seems no longer to exist, and has no desire to exist
Saint John of the Cross said:The tenth and last step of this secret ladder of love assimilates the soul to God completely because of the clear vision of God that a person possesses at once on reaching it. After arriving at the ninth step in this life, the soul departs from the body. Since these souls - few that there be - are already extremely purged through love, they do not enter purgatory. St. Matthew says: Beati mundo corde, quoniam ipsi Deum videbunt, etc. [Mt. 5:8].3 As we mentioned, this vision is the cause of the soul's complete likeness to God. St. John says: We know that we shall be like him [1 Jn. 3:2], not because the soul will have as much capacity as God - this is impossible - but because all it is will become like God. Thus it will be called, and shall be, God through participation.
Well yes a traditional ritual practiced in keeping with traditional beliefs by someone who is a member of that culture it is not a psychotic episode but a spiritual ritual. Give it (the psychedelic) to someone without the cultural background, beliefs, life style, training etc and well it loses all cultural and religious/spiritual meaning the psychedelic ceremony may have had. Now we are back to Johnny suburbia "tripping balls". Without the cultural significance, background, beliefs etc it is a meaningless act. Reading a few texts or a book on Shamanism does not make the urban hippy any closer to understanding the real cultural significance of the practice in question. Without that knowledge, belief, training etc well... the urban hippy is just "tripping balls".
Well yes a traditional ritual practiced in keeping with traditional beliefs by someone who is a member of that culture it is not a psychotic episode but a spiritual ritual. Give it (the psychedelic) to someone without the cultural background, beliefs, life style, training etc and well it loses all cultural and religious/spiritual meaning the psychedelic ceremony may have had. Now we are back to \Johnny suburbia "tripping balls". Without the cultural significance, background, beliefs etc it is a meaningless act. Reading a few texts or a book on Shamanism does not make the urban hippy any closer to understanding the real cultural significance of the practice in question. Without that knowledge, belief, training etc well... the urban hippy is just "tripping balls".
An alternative view may be the appropriate use of psychedelics in terms of cultural, religious and spiritual purposes as practiced by members of that specific ethnic group for who it forms an essential part of their cultural belief system. This does not include "urban shamans" of non ethnic background who have at best limited cultural, spiritual and religious understanding, often gained by reading a few books on shamanism. No doubt published by an individual who shares none of the beliefs, practices, ethnicity etc of the people for who this practice is culturally significant.