Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

[max_freakout]

What do you mean by breaking through on DMT? Feeling the psychedelic effects of it?

It doesnt mean anything, it's just a meaningless term coined by Terence Mckenna to talk about DMT elves

 

[Xorkoth]

Steady on pmose - I never denied people can have religious experiences when tripping. I have mystical experiences most times when I trip - I just choose to interpret them in a different way because I don't believe in organised religion.

Ego death/loss has nothing to do with organized religion... or I should say, the way most psychedelic users talk about it in the interpretation you're disagreeing with has nothing whatsoever to do with organized religion. Just a commonality of experience.

 

[Ismene]

We were talking about religious experiences not ego-death.

 

[max_freakout]

We were talking about religious experiences not ego-death.

they are the same exact thing, ego death IS religious/mystical experience

 

[max_freakout]

Ego death/loss has nothing to do with organized religion

every "organised" religion centres around a depiction of a man undergoing mystical death/rebirth - ie Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Abraham etc.

 

[Ismene]

they are the same exact thing, ego death IS religious/mystical experience

I've had countless mystical experiences but always known I was high on a psychedelic, who I was, where I was etc so doesn't that rule out ego-death?

 

[max_freakout]

I've had countless mystical experiences but always known I was high on a psychedelic, who I was, where I was etc so doesn't that rule out ego-death?

ego death has nothing to do with "not knowing you are high on a psychedelic".

A person experiencing ego death could be fully aware that they had taken a drug, but when you are dead and the universe has dissolved, it hardly matters whether you took a drug or not, it isnt particularly important when there are more pressing issues to deal with like the fact that you have mentally broken and are trapped forever in a recursive feedback-loop. Those are the kind of mental dynamics that are relevant to ego death, not "forgetting you took a drug". Ego death is about experiencing total cosmic dissolution on the inside of your mind.

Ego death is the core mystical experience, the centrepiece of mystical symbolism, the revelation of God.

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ Yes, that's precisely an experience I've had before. I knew I had taken a drug (synthetic 4-HO-DMT) and I knew it was killing me, but the cause was unimportant, the important part was that I was dying and taking the whole universe with me, and I went through an intense process of mourning, regret, realization and acceptance.

 

[Smoky]

This may not be relevant or more out of body, but I've had a semi mystical experience. I once floated out of myself and through the window after I lied down to sleep. Not a dream. A long time ago, in a very very very dark place… I looked back and saw myself (physical image), lying on my bed…. I just watched myself sleep for a long time… it was raining outside and the sun started to shine through the rain into my window like I had never seen before in my life. I was at total peace. The question arose that I had a choice to go and float out the window and leave myself behind --or-- go back into my body… into physical form again. I decided to move towards my body and slip back into it.

I also have floated over my friends sleeping in the living room, I saw them sleeping. I couldn't possibly be up near the ceiling that high physically, which points to some relevance. With actual dreams there is always my subconscious working something happening… emotion involved struggle, accomplishment…. These experiences were entirely different. Non dissociative, I've had those… but were different.

Later I woke up and remembered the experience, of course.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Now thought loops are part of it, where they haven't been hitherto? I give up. I guess it's just something that I'll know I had it if I ever do?

According to you perhaps, but everyone defines it differently, some people will say it's when you meet the elves, some people will say it is when you experience ego death, etc etc. It is a meaningless phrase with no agreed meaning that everyone defines differently, there is no such thing, objectively speaking, as a "breakthrough"

Alright, you take issue with at least one of my attempts to provide an example. You have not yet dealt with my definition, so I cannot comment on its supposed meaninglessness. I did not mention a specific experience in the definition proper, and I can't think of anyone with a mutually exclusive characterization. Was it somehow unclear?

 

[pmoseman]

Can anyone actually define what being happy is all about? Then if so, how easy is it for someone who has never been happy to ask what the hell is everyone talking about? And there are people who hardly ever get happy and we often take this, being happy, for granted.

I find myself grappling once again on this topic. If you disagree then try to be a bit more specific about the thing you disagree with, quote some information, and offer a compromise on the matter. I don't think there is a good definition to work with as of yet and anyone who knows ego death should offer a definition.

I have never felt compelled to use the term to describe anything I experienced and am just as curious as the rest. Let's try and button this down and not expect anyone to prove what mystical experience they had. A definition of this term is going to be extremely difficult to establish. It is currently slang (correct?) and it is going to vary from group to group.

Think of other slang, like dope or molly... and those are substances you can put in your beaker and mass spec.

 

[Ismene]

^^ Yes, that's precisely an experience I've had before. I knew I had taken a drug (synthetic 4-HO-DMT) and I knew it was killing me

That's completely different to the definition of an ego-death given in the last thread. When I said "I always know I'm high on a psychedelic whenever I trip", that was ruled out as being an ego-death because on an ego-death you have no idea who you are or whether you've taken a drug.

 

[Ismene]

If you disagree then try to be a bit more specific about the thing you disagree with, quote some information, and offer a compromise on the matter. I don't think there is a good definition to work with as of yet and anyone who knows ego death should offer a definition.

Well the ego-death claim is that when you take a classic psychedelic in a "heavy-duty" enough way you end up in a state where you have no idea who you are, where you are or whether you've taken a drug or not. Secondly, that you experience this mind-numbing terror and fear that makes you evacuate your bowels.

That doesn't sound like my experience of tripping. Nothing like it whatsoever. So the ego-death experience is obviously not available to me or anyone else like me who always knows he's taken a drug.

 

[theacidtest]

One area I also have to disagree with is most people's inclusion of a "mind numbing terror" aspect. My experience included no fear, no sensation of death. It was simply a complete dissolving of the boundaries between self and other, coupled with no awareness that I was experiencing a drug induced state.

I'm actually rather surprised, I expected more people's "ego death" to be like mine, it seems instead that a lot of people are panicking, thinking they're dying, and making peace with that. I always felt the "death" part of ego death to mean simply that the ego has ceased to exist as a separate entity, not that you're freaking out and thinking you're actually going to die.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Sounds like what I feel mudshark - I struggle to link it in any way with death tho. And a lot of people talk about ego-death as being this terrifying arsequake of an experience - sheer fear and terror of death. Never experienced anything remotely like that.

I have but it was because my BP was 190/110 my pulse 130 BPM. I had palpitations, sweating, nausea, etc. It was because I stupidly combined rather large quantities of dissociative drugs with psychedelics. Fucking great OEV's though. I think I'd had something prior besides the 50 mg MXE no idea what maybe 2cb 20 mg. Anyway decided to snort the 2ci 20 mg mixed with another larger un-weighed blob of MXE prob 80 mg maybe 100 mg??

That one had me shitting, shitting it that I'd OD'd and had no bennies on hand to relax heart muscle and reduce vaso-constriction thereby reducing heart rate and stroke volume while also reducing vaso-constriction. Lucky I found 2 mg of etizolam and that reduced the cardiac rate and BP but I still tripped really fucking hard out with insane visuals.

HR: Beta blockers (eg. Propanalol) are dangerous they slow the heart sure but they actually cause it to contract more and more blood leaves the heart per beat (know as the ejection fraction). Add vaso-constriction that a beta blocker can't modify and you have a possible thromus, emboli, PE, stroke, aneurysm, cerebral aneurysm etc.

There have been others... In a nut shell I treat myself. I have a few clinical items on hand. I am a health professional and I've treated stimulant OD's in much the same way. I'd not advise anyone who does not have medical training and experience to do this. Your literally taking your life into your own hands. What if one day I find an RC that I have not tried that causes an adverse reaction when mixed with a benzo. There are also other types of muscle relaxant and anti seizure meds that can be useful.

Basically your trying to reduce and regulate the firing of the SA node which controls electrical impulses in the heart which cause the cardiac muscle to relax or contract and make our heart beet. Best natural product: cannabis and it is best smoked green. Weed can give tachycardia so adding spin is just double dipping in shit. Benzo's also help control seizures. I'd advise bennies followed by weed once the heart rate and BP are all good.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

So are y'all experiencing different things, or experiencing what is substantially the same thing, yet having different emotional reactions to it?

Can anyone actually define what being happy is all about?

You should read Plato and Aristotle some time. Or just get a dictionary. Excuse me for not being a sophist and actually trying.

 

[Ismene]

In the recent "history of homo sapiens" book the author says that the only reliable indicator of happiness is "pleasureable sensations in the body".

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^Happiness as hedonia, eh? I'm a firmer believer in eudaimonia as the only true happiness.

And so long as we're on the topic, here's a fun quote, "for what is misery but the desire and possession of evil?"

 

[lovepsychadelics]

So are y'all experiencing different things, or experiencing what is substantially the same thing, yet having different emotional reactions to it?



You should read Plato and Aristotle some time. Or just get a dictionary. Excuse me for not being a sophist and actually trying.

Yep some of us look at it in a completely medical fashion and treat any adverse outcome's as you would for any drug OD of that specific type. So H OD would be naloxone for example. Amphetamines, which have a similar physical side effect profile to many psychedelics, with a benzo usually Lorazepam IV/IM along with an anti-psychotic because not everyone on a 5 day tweek fest want their night-night drugs. So treating the physical symptoms of excessive drug consumption due to not unreasonably or totally unfounded fear of cardiac infarct. Psychedelics also increase BP, heart rate and cause vasocontsriction, taking benzo's while on a dose of psychedelic drugs does not "kill" or abort the trip. Usually all it does it makes it a little less intense and my BP and HR reduce to 130/80 Still a little above normal and my pulse to around 90-100 bpm.

Others debate the mysticism and spiritual experience that was their "ego death" may I add the trip I used as an example. I ended up on the bed and everything was contorted and twisting I had full OEV's the were basically 2ci visuals with MXE dissociation. I was dissociated to the point of being unable to visually identify objects in the room around me while the psychedelic visual mania ensured. I saw endless doors all with handle stacked one on the other. Total disconnection from reality. Remember dissociatives actually work by reducing and even stopping nerve impulses reaching the brain especially at anesthetic doses. Add to that the cerebral stimulation and sensory overload of say 2ci in this case and maybe some 2cb. So my brain tried to compensate for the loss and excess of stimulation. Basically dreaming while awake and high as fuck on drugs.

Warning this was a dangerous combo. Please be responsible with your drug use. Learn what not to do, not try to do what has been done and proven to be dangerous. Always hydrate just don't drown yourself and have an electrolyte rich drink handy. Maybe some Maxalon.


My advice... it seems most people advocate large doses of drugs to achieve this. Without actual medical aid (medications, BP cuff, Pulse oximeter etc.) a sitter preferably someone with at least first aid training and at least a few lower "trial" experiences I'd strongly advise against it. Who knows "ego death" could just be a brief psychotic state caused by intoxication with certain "psychedelic" drugs.

Is that worth risking your life and psychological health for a "mystical experience" which does not add a great deal to your life. Not much at all, you may start disparaging others who don't share your new found wisdom and lack of apprehension of mortality, having strange philosophic views, reciting ancient history/philosophy modified by your personal take and generally feeling superior to your fellow man. This is called delusional though process. If you then started calling yourself "Jesus" that would be grandiose ideation with delusional thought disorder...

 

[max_freakout]

the ego-death claim is that .... you end up in a state where you have no idea who you are, where you are or whether you've taken a drug or not. Secondly, that you experience this mind-numbing terror and fear that makes you evacuate your bowels.

on an ego-death you have no idea who you are or whether you've taken a drug.

None of this ^ has anything to do with ego death. A person experiencing ego death may be fully aware who they are (or who they were before they died) and of the fact that they had taken drugs. But these issues are trivial and completely unimportant when there are much bigger things to be concerned about, such as the fact that you just died and are now trapped for eternity in an agonising negative thought feedback loop. When you find yourself in a situation like that, it hardly matters whether you took drugs or not.

Ego death is about experiencing death and total cosmic dissolution in the altered state, it is a mega-intense, profound and shocking experience, not just some mundane experience like taking drugs then forgetting you took them.

Have a look at some trip reports that describe ego death, they make it clear what the experience consists of - mystical death and rebirth in the psychedelic altered state.