Flight MH17 - What happened?

[Sammy G]

I'm no Putin apologist either. And yeah, the black boxes have been found, and the area which the Ukrainian military appears to be attacking is within an agreed exclusion zone.

Speaking of the Ukrainian administration, here's something you may or may not have seen. Compare and contrast:

Coincidence? Or just a 'tribute' to those snappily-dressed Nazis' graphic flair?

 

[Vurtual]

People seem way to eager to fall for obvious propaganda: Anyone following the ukraine situation but not relying on obvious propaganda organs (like most of the media in this case) knows that it's 'our' side that is the shadiest one.

There was a effective media blackout on the fighting in ukraine for the last month or so - the reporting died down soon after that odessa massacre (with it's PR problems for our side). In that period the west ukrainians have been attacking houses hospitals and goverrnment ministries resulting in 250 civilian deaths: who knew? This has included various airstrikes which have been caught on video.

Just this morning they have bombed the area that was declared a ceasefire zone around the plane crash.

The west ukrainians had multiple buks in the very area in question days before the crash - why did they need them when the 'rebels' have no planes? (they denied them being there at first until the satellite photos).

Cui Bono - anyone saying our side (including the west ukrainian puppets) have no reason to do this isn't paying attention to how the sanctions were going the day before the crash compared with the attempted big ratcheting up that's happened since (not to mention the BRICS bank - a similar event that immediately preceeded other recent wars (iraq/libya/syria)). Of course our side benefits - earlier on, many people just weren't buying the story given about ukraine (when the media were still reporting it) because we've got used to how they lie about things for the benefit of the state/war machine. Now by tapping into our emotions using this crash, the public seem to be falling in with the racist imperialist bollocks much more - whether our side deliberately blew up the plane (well within our moral capabilities (see iranian airbus)) or not, you must see the obvious PR campaign that is now in operation (that is if you saw it in iraq/libya/syria). I won't be told that pipsqueak russia's nefarious activities (which undoubtedly exist) even come close to ours. Russia is just a valuable chess piece in the 'great game' (the pivot to asia' as dick cheney called it) - this has been the same since the 19th century. Wake up people.

 

[Sammy G]

I agree, as my posts (from the very beginning of this thread) testify. Yet it's 'evil Russia' we're dealing with, led by Big Bad Putin, so people's perspectives are already skewed before they even read the selective 'reporting' from western media. The Polish reports (for example) are even more ludicrously propagandist than their British counterparts.

And less of the 'our', please. I'm being paid by the Kremlin for this shit.

 

[Vurtual]

Yeah me too - the roubles are rolling in

Probably shouldn't have put 'wake up' on the end there - arrogance isn't the most persuasive tactic (it's morning is my excuse). How long are people's memory of government/media propaganda though? Haven't we had enough to see through it yet? Did anyone watch that program 'The men who made us buy' on BBC2 the other day? The sophisticated manipulation of people's minds for commerce has been going on a long time in the west and has long been used for political purposes (the methods actually started with war propaganda in the Ministry of Information which orwell worked in (not to mention the BBC which many think he is slyly referring to as the Big Brother Corporation ('Aunty' is not too different)).

 

[Vurtual]

About the opinion of polish people (a poll of poles):

In the event of armed conflict in Ukraine, should Poland commit itself militarily?
Strongly against:.... 38%
No:......................... 29%
Strongly in favour:.. 11.9%
Yes:........................ 15.1%
Undecided:............... 6%

http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1406035851.html

The one polish person i know doesn't believe the hype that it's putin's fault (and he's no fan of putin)

 

[Sammy G]

I wouldn't take that as any indication of Polish support for Russia's position. It's more the morbid fear of Russian tanks rolling in (still a fresh folk memory).

If you get a second, take a look at this (published in June): http://www.imre-kertesz-kolleg.uni-...n_the_Polish_Media_Version_1.0_02.06.2014.pdf

EDIT: Thanks for the swift move, mods!

 

[Si Dread]

Yes, you're wrong. The overthrow of the (democratically elected) previous Ukrainian administration happened in February 2014, after the initial protests which began in November 2013. The official Russian intervention occurred in March 2014.

Besides which, I see nothing 'combative' at all in PTCH's post. Although this wouldn't be the first time I've witnessed you getting peeved at somebody (myself included) pointing out the fact you have your wires crossed about some issue or other.

I don't mean any malice by that whatsoever; it's just an observation.

You're also disregarding the referendum which was held in Crimea, in which an overwhelming majority voted to rejoin Russia. Not to mention the ethnic makeup of the region and its historical ties to Russia (as well as Ukraine).

In fact, Russia has more of a mandate in that territory than any western government I can think of has in its own land. But let's just fuck democracy, yeah? Unless it's Nato-approved democracy, natch.

Regardless, at the time Crimea was a part of Ukraine was it not? Moscow simply leased Crimean ports & millitary bases, did they not? It was from these bases that they took over Crimea, yes?

... however my point was that I thought the Russian moves in Crimea pre-empted the regime change in Kiev which then brought Russia to mass troops on the borders of Eastern Ukraine & ferment & arm a rebellion & I was asking politely, seeing you all seem far more up to speed than little old me, if I had the time-line right.

In other words, were the Kiev protests that brought the new regime into Kiev before, during or after the Crimean takeover? If the Crimean take-over came first, I pin the plane crash on Putin. If the pro-Western protests & ultimate facist coup came first, perhaps Europe & the USA have the ultimate resposibility for what happened to MH17.

 

[Vurtual]

The russians accepted crimea back into their country in response to the western backed nazi-facilitated coup in kiev (which was triggered because the previous ukrainian regime (along with the majority of the population) wouldn't be blackmailed into being ripped off by the EU/IMF and all their corporate friends)

 

[Si Dread]

The russians accepted crimea back into their country in response to the western backed nazi-facilitated coup in kiev (which was triggered because the previous ukrainian regime (along with the majority of the population) wouldn't be blackmailed into being ripped off by the EU and all their corporate friends)

the coup preceded the Crimean return to Moscow rule? Then the West has ultimate responsibility regardless of who shot down the plane. The West started it.

 

[Vurtual]

Yep. There was also the phone intercept of victoria nuland (american diplomat) deciding who would be the best people to be in the new government before the coup happened, and saying 'fuck the EU' (so showing who really runs the show). Then there was her and john mccain handing out biscuits to the maidan protesters (at least some of whom were proper facsists). Maybe check the other ukraine thread - it's all in there.

 

[Sammy G]

Well at least the black boxes are in 'safe hands' now, eh?

http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/

Meanwhile, the Russian Ministry of Defence has handed over its own monitoring data to the EU. Vladimir Chizhov (Russia's envoy to the EU had the following comments to make:

“I’m surprised by statements made by certain European representatives,” he said. Even European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso – who is on a visit in Brazil – “voiced certainty that the plane, as he said, was shot down by 'separatists.'”According to the Russian diplomat, attempts to foresee the results of an investigation “can only be considered as an attempt to put pressure on the probe.”

“I hope that will not happen,” Chizhov said.

But hey, who needs evidence? Let's press on with those sanctions anyhow.

The Guardian actually ran this story: http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-flight-mh17-what-russian-papers-are-saying

... although they also had this to offer, which lists the possibility of Ukrainian involvement as a 'bizarre conspiracy theory' (alongside some genuine barmpot theories): 8)

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-theories-zionist-plots-illuminati-russian-tv

 

[Chatative]

But hey, who needs evidence? Let's press on with those sanctions anyhow.

As becomes clear in all these international incidents, the West has a vested interest & is in it for a certain outcome.

Innocent until proven guilty... (unless of course it is convenient for furthering our own interests. 8) )

 

[Vurtual]

America seem to backing off a bit ('no evidence of direct russian involvement'). Still no real evidence given except secret 'trust us' evidence. It's like a replay of the syria gas attack bollocks - on the one hand it looks like incompetence or loosing their grip on the propaganda war; but on the other, most people seem to still believe that assad did the gas attacks (despite loads of evidence to the contrary) - even if they have to back off the claimed evidence of this current disaster bit by bit, most people will come away with the putin=monster view pushed by the media, so job done (without any pesky evidence to be disproved later). If you can directly manipulate what people believe so they spout government propaganda but think it's their own original thought, who needs evidence - the final empire is the empire of the mind.

 

[Sammy G]

Shit's getting real (again):

Agence France-Presse has a bit more on the shooting down of the two fighter jets. The location of the incident remains unclear.

"Two Sukhoi Ukrainian fighter jets have been shot down. The fate of the pilots is not known," spokesman Oleksiy Dmytrashkivsky said, adding the planes were brought down some 25 kilometres (16 miles) from the crash site of MH17.

But a second military spokesman said the jets had been downed at a different location by rockets fired by insurgents. The two pilots managed to parachute out, he said.

"Today in the south of the Lugansk region close to the village of Dmytrivka, pro-Russian fighters shot two Su-25 jets from a missile system," spokesman Vladislav Seleznev said.

"The pilots took evasive action ... but the planes were hit," he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-in-netherlands-as-bodies-arrive-live-updates

Still no ceasefire in sight.

 

[Vurtual]

The separatists and russia have both been vehemently calling on the west and kiev for a ceasefire in the crash area, but west ukraine went ahead with their attacks with horrific casualties, unnoticed in the west (except via RT (say what you want about them, charred children and their distraught mothers are hard to fake)).

That the separatists took down a couple of these bombers that had likely just returned from incinerating some children is a good thing.

 

[rickolasnice]

The rebels admit they had BUK's 8)

 

[Sammy G]

The rebels admit they had BUK's 8)

They never denied it though, did they? Quite the contrary, in fact. They bragged about having seized them prior to the attack.

Khodakovsky's statement is almost being treated as damning evidence that it was the federalists' wot done it, when it's simply not the case. There's the distinct possibility, sure, though compare his slight backpedalling over the issue with the Kiev regime's own repeated denials that they had BUKs deployed in the area. Also, it's important to remember that Khodakovsky is merely the leader of one particular rebel faction, who may or may not know much at all.

And still no ceasefire.

 

[Vurtual]

The rebels did not admit they had buks (afaik) - an interview with reuters was twisted when khodakovsky (maybe it was another rebel) was discussing hypothetical scenarios after stating he did not know the details - good old reliable reuters. There was a convoy stopped in may which had a couple of buks, but they were non-functional (this was known before).

There was a similar interview on newsnight last night which was such an obvious attempt to twist the PR story back in our favour - the whole program was disgusting propaganda (they've got the cheek to talk about RT). And yet the interviewed rebel leader (borodai) still came across as totally reasonable (if you already knew some of the background anyway). (an even more blatant attempt at character assasination was done on borodai by CNN, complete with slow motion eyerolls to illustrate contempt, and comments about his clothing).

'Our' side are desparately trying to overwhelm facts with propaganda since russia showed their civilian radar data showing a su-25 right next to mh17 at the time of the crash. Our side still haven't given their equivalent data, or any of the air traffic control voice recordings - why not? Russia have undoubtedly got much more precise military radar data showing what happened exactly - as have the americans. Either side could give us this data and the case would be closed - i think Putin is calling the west's bluff and is giving us a chance to own up or backtrack before dropping the full data on us (just as happened in syria actually).

The americans/british could scotch this version instantly with a few sattelite photos and radar data, but they haven't (just a load of 'reliable' twitter). I don't know, but judging by how forthcoming each side is being with actual evidence i'm inclined to believe putin's version.

 

[Sammy G]

Shows the danger of relying on western news agencies - even the Guardian remained ambiguous about the whole thing, which indicates that they're aware of the tenuous nature of the Khodakovsky 'admission'.

As you say, the Kiev bootboys have pointblank refused to release their data, whereas the Americans appear to have sidestepped the issue.

It seems theres' some shuffling in Kiev : http://rt.com/news/line/2014-07-24/#66696

 

[Vurtual]

Details on that reuters interview:

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/0...nedict-arnold-rebels-had-buk-downed-mh17.html

Update:

RIA now has (in Russian) a somewhat fishy denial of the Reuters interview by an anonymous spokesperson of Khodakovsky. Machine translation:

Donetsk, July 23 - RIA Novosti. Battalion commander "East" Alexander Khodakovsky denies that he spoke in an interview with Reuters on the alleged use of militias in eastern Ukraine system "Buk", said RIA Novosti on Wednesday a source close to the commander.

"I did not say anything like" Reuters "and I have a recording of a conversation" - quoted the spokesman Khodakovskogo words.