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Why shouldn't you roll more than ~once a month~ yet this doesn't count with meth/amp

T

Thanatos9

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Joined
Sep 17, 2012
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79
MDMA causes depletion of serotonin through a mass release of 5-HT and needs time to recover, but why don't people say the same thing about meth or amphetamine which primarily releases dopamine. Does the brain recover levels of dopamine more quickly than serotonin or is it purely the fact that MDMA is schedule 1 and meth/amphetamine are used therapeutically everyday (governments tend to demonise non-prescription drugs more, the mdma causes holes in your brain nonsense 8)?)

Secondly would taking meth or MDMA everyday be more neurotoxic? I'd imagine meth, at least at recreational doses. The only amp i've had is amphetamine sulphate btw, stayed up for a few days a couple time on it.

Sorry if this is basic drug question.
 
yeah i too would like to hear the opinion of you guys here on NPD on what's behind MDMA's supposed neurotoxicity, long-term comedowns and all this stuff, as it kinda intrigues me. i see/hear about some people doing MDMA all the time irresponsibly and not suffering from anything other than tuesday blues and at the same time some people unexpectedly feeling terrible after a night with it, with full blown depression and all that jazz.
 
The mechanisms behind the negative effects of MDMA taken too often are complex and not completely understood..
Even the neurotoxicity is questionable, one theory says it's neurotoxic and kills serotonin producing cells, the other that it just changes the innervation patterns but doesn't actually kill the cells themselves.

Most explanations include it's toxic metabolites, the simultaneous release of both DA and 5-HT being bad in it self, 5-HT taking a longer time to recover vs DA/NE, ....

Why DA/NE recover faster than 5-HT? Idk
Why some people can get away with more abuse than others? Idk

Meth, as far as I know I neurotoxic even in small doses, normal amphetamine in small doses is believed to be safe.
 
Thanatos9 said:
Does the brain recover levels of dopamine more quickly than serotonin?
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black53 said:
Why DA/NE recover faster than 5-HT? Idk
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You need Phenylalanine/Tyrosine to make dopamine.
You need Tryptophan to make serotonin.

An average diet contains much more Phenylalanine/Tyrosine than Tryptophan, that's why you can produce more dopamine than serotonin.
 
Is that the whole story or is production still limited by other mechanisms?

I mean our diets have enough testosterone precursors for us to make 100 mg per day but we don't.....
The pituitary can also make and release more HGH than it does (hence why ghrp-6 and company work) and yet it doesn't.
 
black53 said:
Is that the whole story or is production still limited by other mechanisms?
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There are of course also other limitations, like the limited BBB penetration of amino acids or the limited hydroxylation.
 
Perhaps even in the enzymes that make it themselves (no enough and/or not fast enough)? I mean, besides drugs, is there ever a need to quickly make lots of serotonin? If there isn't then why would we be able to (ok random chance, but there would be no evolutionary pressure for it).
 
Does the brain recover levels of dopamine more quickly than serotonin
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Yes, by a tremendous amount. Notice how you can binge on meth and it will keep working throughout the binge, to the point of playing a key role in inducing psychosis after a few days. Entactogens, however, seem to lose effectiveness entirely after just two redoses, acting like a classical stimulant thereafter.

But really, if you're taking strong recreational doses of meth, you should be giving yourself that month to recover, if you want your use to be indefinitely sustainable (pro-tip: you totally do :P)

ebola
 
I don't see a problem with using mdma twice a week, its just tolerance (wich can be reversed with st johns worth) and comedowns that are a problem, I believe daily high dose use of memantine and st johns worth alleviate that mostly.

But take in mind, im not the most responsible person haha.
 
Sero depletion is a marker of toxiticy and doesn't occur with normal use besides its downregulation that causes the aftermath.
 
5ht depletion is used as a marker of toxicity as it is in cases of lacking synaptic 5ht that 5ht transporters are vulnerable to the type of uptake of varied toxic metabolites that can lead to cellular or even just axonal death. In rodents, at least, these conditions correlate together quite tightly.

Sero depletion is a marker of toxiticy and doesn't occur with normal use besides its downregulation that causes the aftermath.
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I'll say it again: the endogenous synth of 5ht is really quite slow...hell, it still probably is even with supplemented 5htp. We see both receptor downregulation and depletion of presynaptic 5ht with MDMA use at both v. large acute doses and with regular use of smaller amounts (the latter as modeled imperfectly in primates and rodents). Caution is still warranted.

ebola
 
Proof please that there is evidence of sero depletion without toxiticy and how long it takes to restore? 5htp supplementation would reverse that in a day.
 
MDMA can deplete your serotonin to the point that it quits working indefintely. What more proof do you need?
 
How about a citation for that rather than one guy providing an anecdote?

You seem to imply that someone who has abused MDMA won't produce any more serotonin, that's total bullshit... serotonin is still produced, it just doesn't have the same effect at 5ht receptors any more.
 
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sekio said:
How about a citation for that rather tha one guy providing an anecdote?

You seem to imply that someone who has abused MDMA won't produce any more serotonin, that's total bullshit... serotonin is still produced, it just doesn't have the same effect at 5ht receptors any more.
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This is correct, massive receptor downregulation is the problem and anecdotally has been reversed with high dose st johns worth.
 
I never said downregulation didn't matter. . .
also, what kind of anecdote could demonstrate SJW to promote 5ht receptor upregulation?

ebola
 
sekio,

Obviously your serotonin system is still working fairly well, but the MDMA won't be.

Besides, there are TONS of studies on MDMA induced 5-HT nerve cell pruning and MDMA tolerance. I don't feel obligated to look them up for anyone, sorry.

Try using pubmed and do a search for "MDMA neurotoxicity and tolerance."
 
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ebola? said:
I never said downregulation didn't matter. . .
also, what kind of anecdote could demonstrate SJW to promote 5ht receptor upregulation?

ebola
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Ill post the anecdotes one of the days, have to search them on drugs forum.
 
If Saint John's Wort would bring the magic back, then I'm all for it, but I don't see how it's going to reverse the morphological changes that result in loss of MDMA magic.
 
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