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Bupe I hate Suboxone.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, why did you decide to go on Subs? Are you trying to get off of everything completley eventually in the near future? If so, then I encourage you to try to stick it out a while with the Subs, but if you are getting pressure from other people to get off of everything then honestly,wouldn't listen to them..go with what works best for you,. Also wanted to add anti-histamines work wonders sometimes(at night for me) with the anxious feeling I get sometime's on Subs,I find Doxylamine works best for me...i have to be careful with the benzo's because I'm not scripted them..kinda sucks, i'm always worried about benzo's lingering around in my system with every drug test I have. But just throwing that option in there for ya if you do not want to be completely dependent on the benzo's...

As far as OCT anti histimines, I definitely take lots of Diphenhydramine throughout the day and at nigh for sleep/allergies/"potentation"..

Well I basically got kicked off of MMT by my providing Doc. because of an OD that sent me to the hospital ICU..needless to say im fine now, besides the fact that i'm on Suboxone. lol. Im very tempted to call my 'Done doctor back start begging him..
 
What are you trying to achieve being on suboxone? It's great if you ready to take your life back and want to do a quick taper. However, from the sound of your thread, you're not at that point yet! You're main concern is not getting an 'opiate high', (as you so eloquently put it) from the suboxone. Do you see how this way of thinking is flawed, and can derail your path to becoming sober? So I don't know if you're trying to quit because of your financial situation, or what your reasoning behind it is, but you need to change your mindset if you really plan on quitting.. Otherwise just stick with the methadone..

Personally Bud, I don't even want to really be on it.. But I unfortunately live in a weird place ( small population, kinda secluded location) I don't have access to any other street opiate ( heroin ) so I have to drive hours away just to pick up, due to this I became poor very fast. Methadone was like others say " a legal high" almost...IDK if I'd go as far as saying that but, its a nice thing to say about 'done :D. I definitely fell in love with it, and just want back on the 'done, it kept my life stable, and in check.


Im a emotional wreck on these fucken' Subs and they dont work.. thats all i know.
 
What was the point of this thread? Was there a specific question that I missed? I guess I'll touch on a few things here, If you plan on being on a drug maintenance program semi-permanently, and want to feel somewhat buzzed, stick with the methadone, if you're trying to quit so you're not dependent, bupe' is excellent for a quick taper. The reason you felt an opioid "high" with methadone, is 'cause it's a 'full' agonist, opposed to bupe', which is a 'partial' agonist. The best chance of feeling an opioid 'high' with bupe' is to take less of it. There is threads explaining the science behind the 'norbupe theory'.. But to sum it up in a consolidated explanation; The body metabolizes bupe'(partial agonist) into norbupe (full agonist),by taking less bupe initially, there's more open opioid receptors for the norbupe to attach to.

Im pretty familiar with the whole Bupe/NorBupe low dosing idea.. and right now I couldn't even imagine getting a buzz of a couple MG's of Bupe.. Ive read that atbest the the amount of Norbupe you may get into your brain is really only equal to ~40mg hydrocodone.. and thats a joke, that wouldn't give me a buzz it'd take a couple hundred MG's of hydro to maybe feel a buzz...
 
Ya, I don't see the whole less is more making you feel more confortable on it if you don't even feel held on the dose you are on now, I've tried it myself but guese I don't have the will power to not use other opiates while on a low dose of it, so I keep it at at least 4mg,usually take 8mg, had 12mg yesterday and today because all my old dealers are getting there oxy scripts and I don't want to go blow all my money on it..it works for some people but I get more cravings on a lower dose and what 'buzz' I do feel is just kind of a tease and makes me wanna just go do a shot... so you get your done' from a doctor and not a clinic? If so you are lucky, if he want put you back on it have you thought about going to a clinic? Or are you like me and would have to drive 180 miles everyday, which is the only reason I went for the Subs honestly...
 
FUCKING finally my old doc let me back under his wings, and is now willing to Rx me Methadone for maintenance :D! I'm just so relieved / excited that I had to make a post about it. Words can't describe how happy I am to be off of suboxone, Such a horrible drug for me for whatever reason.

He's only giving me 40mg/day currently, and He isnt going to let me go as high as I as I want like last go-around, but thats good because TBH I just want to be on a dose that literally maintains me. I'm done trying to chase that methadone high, It just doesn't happen and fucks with your tolerance and maintenance.

I'm happy again for the first time in a long while :)

EDIT: I actaully do have a question: SO I was on 12mgs/day of sub beforehand and I am meeting with my methadone doc to talk about doses,ect. so what would 12mgs bupe/day convert to _mgs of Methadone?

I cant seem to find shit on google.
 
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It's hard to say, I think with Subs they say 8mg is equal to 30-40mg of Methadone, and it has a ceiling soo I dunno if it goes higher than 40mg after the 8mg point. And lucky you! I called and changed my appointment from like over a month from now..but it was so wierd after I called and changed it they called and left a message saying I had an appointment on Monday, so I called back and she got all confused(they ALWAYs do when I call I'm like wtf!) and then she put me on hold for litterally like a second or two and said your appointment is when you changed it to..im all paranoid now I did something wrong and am gonna get kicked out,but I think thats just me being paranoid,i dunno...
 
The ceiling for Suboxone is 32mg as far as I know. This means that after 32mg virtually nothing more happens to your body, good or bad. This is one of the reasons why methadone treatment is still around. Some people have such extreme opiate habits that 32mg still doesn't even get them out of withdrawals, and more dosing won't solve the problem.
 
It's hard to say, I think with Subs they say 8mg is equal to 30-40mg of Methadone, and it has a ceiling soo I dunno if it goes higher than 40mg after the 8mg point. And lucky you! I called and changed my appointment from like over a month from now..but it was so wierd after I called and changed it they called and left a message saying I had an appointment on Monday, so I called back and she got all confused(they ALWAYs do when I call I'm like wtf!) and then she put me on hold for litterally like a second or two and said your appointment is when you changed it to..im all paranoid now I did something wrong and am gonna get kicked out,but I think thats just me being paranoid,i dunno...

lol wtf, sounds like some super high dosed benzo-induced retardation changing your appt. times? hhah, JK man.
 
My last Sub Doc was also my pain doc. He told me that while 32mg is the ceiling in terms of withdrawal. Said Bupe's analgesia (low as it is) has no virtual ceiling. But in PM terms its very inefficient (I once was RX'd 64mg per day for pain management)
 
Ya...that's what confuses me, people say the ceiling for Subs are different numbers all the time..12mg, 16mg, 24mg,32mg. BUT if 8mg equals 30-40mg of methadone(from what I understand) would the numbers of MG go up for methadone, like if your on 16mg, would that be like being on 60-80mg of Methadone?? Or does it stay the same, as in no matter how much Suboxone you take, after you get past 8mg would 16mg still be like 30-40mg of Methadone??
 
Its really hard to go from methadone to subs. I was on methadone for a year and a half and was tired of going to the clinic so i got on subs. It took me like 3 weeks to adjust to it, which sucked. Now i am on 6 mg of sub and I feel normal. I'm glad you got back on methadone, but if for some reason you should have to get back on subs just know that you will start to feel normal after several weeks. Your body just has to adjust from methadone.
 
Huh, really? I could swear I read on an official suboxone website that even after 32mg it doesn't slow your breathing further etc. all the analgesic effects don't increase. Because if that's the case, why wouldn't it help withdrawals but still do those things? Not saying that I'm right I'm just trying to figure out the right answer.
 
Its really hard to go from methadone to subs. I was on methadone for a year and a half and was tired of going to the clinic so i got on subs. It took me like 3 weeks to adjust to it, which sucked. Now i am on 6 mg of sub and I feel normal. I'm glad you got back on methadone, but if for some reason you should have to get back on subs just know that you will start to feel normal after several weeks. Your body just has to adjust from methadone.

No way man, I will NEVER touch any Bupe again in my life ( tap on wood). That drug just did not work for me, at all. I'd rather just taper off or cold turkey the 'done than be on Suboxone again...
 
Huh, really? I could swear I read on an official suboxone website that even after 32mg it doesn't slow your breathing further etc. all the analgesic effects don't increase. Because if that's the case, why wouldn't it help withdrawals but still do those things? Not saying that I'm right I'm just trying to figure out the right answer.

It could just be total BS you know, and be an outright false statement, that is just a lie by the company. I mean when it fist came out, and still doctors call it "non-abusable". LOL. They have absolutely no idea..its just more money for the doctors, just like any other company trying to sell some sort of product, except here it unfortunately has to deal with human health and well-being.

In very small fine print on the bottom on the official Suboxone Website, It states that " this drug is still ACTAULLY abusable", or something similar to that, I can't remember EXACTLY what the print said...regardless..Suboxone is a total fuckin marketing gimmick which has unfortunately working for a lot of people it seems..

Part of why I wanted to get off subs were the PRICE of them! Out of this world. My first 2 week supply cost literally as much as about a year of methadone tablets would cost me at my pharmacy.

yeah as you can see i'm biased, becasue i've had a baaad run w suboxone, maybe it works for you, but not me, ill stick to Methadone; which I love.
 
Very true and sad that based on the world we live in I would say that's entirely plausible. I have definitely seen my share of bad experiences with suboxone. My only experiences are using it as a temporary stand in when scoring wasn't an option, so I can't really give a maintenance-based opinion.
 
The ceiling is much lower than 32 mg. In my opinion it's generally 6-8 mg, but it could be actually as low as 4 mg, that's the lowest dose that I could make a switch to with absolutely no pain (from 10-12 mg down to 4 mg in a few days with the help of DXM). And making a switch from 4 mg to 3 mg is actually much more difficult for me than from 10-12 mg to 4 mg, believe me or not. I can take 3 mg for a couple of days, but when the levels of buprenorphine in my blood seem to fall and I feel just wrong, I have to take 4 mg to even it out. We're being lied to every day everywhere, so the masters of the world can make more money on us. I wouldn't be surprised if one day they just killed 1/3 of the population, because it's such a pain in the ass to help the poor, they're depressed and useless for them.

Also, the good reason for pharmaceutical companies to support maintenance treatment is that way they can change the flow of money for their benefit and their superiors'. It's much easier to control that way than the money from heroin.
 
I was on MMT for a year, and wanted to switch to suboxone, I accidently dosed too early atmy appointment and went into precip withdrawls so he put me in his private patient bed in his private office, it was HELL, sent me home after 4 hours, still flopping like a fish, for 3 weeks I was on the couch I felt like I was in opiate withdtrawl. I couldn't handle it, all my pain came back I remembered I used to have, my mood was depressed..i had to go back to methadone..
 
the ceiling dose is actually 8mg if ROA is 100%. my doctor told me 24mg is the ceiling dose, so I did the math and 1/3 of 24 is 8, the ROA is low around 30%..
The ceiling is much lower than 32 mg. In my opinion it's generally 6-8 mg, but it could be actually as low as 4 mg, that's the lowest dose that I could make a switch to with absolutely no pain (from 10-12 mg down to 4 mg in a few days with the help of DXM). And making a switch from 4 mg to 3 mg is actually much more difficult for me than from 10-12 mg to 4 mg, believe me or not. I can take 3 mg for a couple of days, but when the levels of buprenorphine in my blood seem to fall and I feel just wrong, I have to take 4 mg to even it out. We're being lied to every day everywhere, so the masters of the world can make more money on us. I wouldn't be surprised if one day they just killed 1/3 of the population, because it's such a pain in the ass to help the poor, they're depressed and useless for them.

Also, the good reason for pharmaceutical companies to support maintenance treatment is that way they can change the flow of money for their benefit and their superiors'. It's much easier to control that way than the money from heroin.
 
I'm sure that norbuprenorphine adds a lot to overall effects that one feels after taking lower doses of Suboxone/Subutex. There's probably 50-60% of buprenorphine taken converted into norbuprenorphine (that's my supposition based on levels of both bupe and norbupe measured in one study and not an actual number). Perhaps the ceiling is indeed higher than 8mg, but going higher and higher, you definitely don't get as much increase in effects as with lower doses (I mean the bell-shaped dose-response curve). As I increased the dose over 6-8mg, I couldn't notice the difference in effects intensity. However, when I started tapering down and got down to 3mg, and then 2mg, I noticed that I'm much more constipated compared to 4-6mg. Tapering down below 2mg is a nightmare, I've been on Suboxone for almost 2 years, it does more bad than good for me now and as I lower the dose, it gets worse like exponentially. I think that it's because of norbuprenorphine having more % of overall effects. Also, norbuprenorphine should cross blood-brain barrier less easily, so the peripheral effects are much more pronounced vs. central effects (well, it does have a lower therapeutic index than buprenorphine). I can imagine that once I start feeling more central opioid effects, it will get even worse. A partial agonist that is as painful to get off as full agonists or actually worse due to very long half-life. The complex pharmacology of buprenorphine doesn't only work to its advantage. I began looking for other mu partial agonists/kappa silent antagonists a few months ago and the one that I've mentioned recently - 7-[o-methylcinnamoyl)-aminomethyl derivative of orvinol - its partial agonism doesn't really seem to rely on the substituent on nitrogen as it has a methyl group there, so the N-demethylated metabolite would be expected to be a partial agonist at MOP as well.
 
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