Bupe New on Bupe after heavy Oxy - Need Advice ASAP

[jeng1128]

Can I ask what dose they started you at and tapered you to? Also, what kind of tolerance to oxy were you treated for?

I think these are pretty relevant for comparison. Also, I am currently on day 6, but I will be on day 11 by the time I finish the recommended taper.

I had a 2bundle/daily habit. I gotta count back to remember how long that was for.(2005 was a long time ago, lol) Like a year. Started in 2001(OC's) Developed a huge habit, 5 80's /daily back when u could actually get through the time release, 2 years w octane, switched to dope in 2003, got arrested 2004<cold Turkey ) Got out of jail in 4 months so I had pretty much no tolerance, 2 weeks outta jail, relapsed(crazy how you forget about the hell u just went through, thought I could do it once-we all know how that works out so it was a year/iv. They also gave me diazapam there (10mgs/twice daily.)

 

[VisceralChems]

So, my "official" recommendation is as follows:

First, go 36h without anything, let yourself get really sick. Next, take 4mg(dissolved in liquid ). Now you have to wait 2-3h, as it takes a while for sublingual bupe to reach full effect. If you do not feel straight 2-3h later, take 2 more mg. If 6mg doesn't hold you, I'd be shocked, but whatever you do, don't exceed 7-8mg, or your going backwards. The next day, take the same dose, or a maximum of 6mg.
Now, drop a mg a day until you hit 4, unless you we're already at 4. Once you hit 4, get stabilized, and drop to 3. Then 2.5, then 2, then 1.5, then 1.25, then 1, then 0.75, then 0.5,,, You get the idea? But in order to formulate a plan, you have to find the dose that makes you comfortable, otherwise you'll likely end up too miserable to go through with it. Just keep us posted, as you said, you have plenty of info to make an informed decision, but all the planning in the world may not prepare you for your body's unique response.

Good luck, of course, and keep us updated.

Alright, so I have decided to take your advice and go off CT, wait ~36 hours for bad WD, and then go back on if WD are bad at highest effective dose between 1mg and 5mg dissolved. If WD are not bad, hell, maybe just ride it out. I figure this is a win win...i either get to reset the bupe experience at a lower dose, as well as test the waters to see what jumping off at a higher dose is like after only six days of use. The only thing is that I may have to take wife to the hospital today for kidney infection, in which case I will take half the dose I took yesterday (I took 5mg sublingual yesterday) and then jump from there. I'll keep you posted.

 

[VisceralChems]

jeng1128 - Do you recall how much suboxone they used by chance? I know it was a long time, so no worries if not.

 

[VisceralChems]

Update: For reasons previously mentioned, I took a half dose yesterday. A summary of doses thus far include:
After waiting 24hrs from last oxy dose:
Day 1: 8mg total divided into 2mg doses spaced 2 hrs apart (went into PW because taken too early)
Day 2: 4mg in morning and 4mg in evening (felt 50% better than yesterday, but still moderate symptoms)
Day 3: 8mg in morning (WD symptoms felt slightly better than yesterday, but still mild symptoms and some new ones likely associated with bupe)
Day 4: 4mg in morning and 8mg at night (per dr recommendation...felt mild-moderate wd in morning, large bupe dose at night helped somewhat)
Day 5: 5mg in morning and ~5mg at night (feel slightly better than day before)
Day 6: 5mg in morning and 2mg at night (best day so far but still mild symptoms)
Day 7: 2mg at noon and 1mg at night (waited till wd feelings, after taking feel almost normal, bupe is noticeably helping at this point)
Day 8: 0mg thus far (able to sleep-in for first time in along time...)

The plan was to take a 36 hour break and redose since never really felt stable; however, since felt what is consider to be stable yesterday, at lowest does thus far, thinking will just follow previous taper schedules as this will allow to have it in system for an overall shorter duration. Waiting until feel noticeable symptoms, at which point will take 1mg, with the option of .5mg later in the night depending on feel. As a side note, small doses of Rx'ed clonazepam has been mixed throughout, usually at night, and a muscle relaxer on night of Day 7 in place of benzo (though didn't like feeling and wont do again). Will update in a day or so.

 

[VisceralChems]

Ended up taking 1.5mg yesterday. Probably will stablize on that amount today. Have been waking up in middle of night drenched in sweat last two nights...which is highly unusual for me...could this be from bupe??

 

[mahi]

That was simple, what is really funny is someone asks for a taper. Then they are faced with shove it up ass, dissolve it, snort it. My God, just take the strip or pill and divide it up. It is not that complex. Welcome to the world of addiction, yes it is. Let's see, it starts with a "normal person" getting some Percs and take every 4-6 hours for pain. Most stop after a day or two. Now the wizards come along, the smartest guys on the planet. No, here is what you do, shove them up your ass, inject them, sniff them. Then the dumbasses who took them as prescribed eventually end up taking all the money of the wizards through rehab. Just cut your dose, start at smallest amount and then stop. easy, is there pain involved yes, no way around it but motivation always helps in that area.

 

[Carl Landrover]

P.S. Many of the posts I read talk about getting down to .125 of bupe before jumping off...however, this seems crazy small dose to get to using 8mg sub-lingual films. When people are talking about doses in the .1 - .5 range, are they talking about IV'ed bupe, or does this hold true for the sub lingual films? In other words, since I have heard that .3 IV bupe is equal to around 2mg of sublingual, would I only need to get down to 1mg of sublingual bupe before jumping off?

Thanks!

No, they're not talking about IV, not the majority at least.

Getting down to low doses like 0.1-0.25mg will make it so you can still be functioning whilst doing the taper and for when you finally jump off. It is a low dose and it does look like hardly anything, but if you taper down right you'll be taking smaller and smaller pieces so that when you do get to a tiny, thin piece it won't look like an insignificant amount.

It's hard to get exact doses down when you get that small, but it's not that difficult. You can start by measuring out an 8mg strip (it's about 22m long), so if you were to cut a 1mm piece it would be about 0.36mg.

Another way to do the taper is to take an 8mg strip and see how long it lasts you. Then when you finish that strip, take another strip and make that last longer than the previous strip, and just continue down that route. So if you make the first 8mg strip last for 4 days then you'd be averaging 2mg a day. Then the second strip if you can make it last 6 days it would be about 1.33mg a day. Then on the next strip try and make it last 8 days for a 1mg a day average. Just keep doing that until you're making an 8mg strip last at least 16 days (0.5mg a day average). Personally I would try to get down to the 0.1-0.25 dose, which would be making an 8mg strip last at least 32 days.

You don't necessarily have to go with that slow of a taper, but the slower you go the less painful it will be. It just takes some patience.


Finally, when you get to a low dose, work on stretching out the time between doses. So if you're taking a dose every 20-24 hours, work on going to 24-30 hours, then 30-36 hours between doses, and then just keep stretching out the time between. This allows you to get used to having days where you're not taking any at all. Plus, if you're used to taking something every day, it can feel a bit overwhelming to just suddenly not be taking it. So spreading out the time between doses so that you have 48-60 hours between your last few doses will make the transition to nothing a lot smoother.

 

[VisceralChems]

Thanks for the clarification. I find I can cut a strip down to .5mg, maybe .25mg, before it becomes almost impossible to handle. I guess that is where the dissolving in water method could help. However, I am going to probably try going every other day by the time I get down to .25mg. But I wouldn't want to do that as a prolonged taper just because of the added time in my system. From the posts I have read, there appears to be a common report that there is a major difference (advantage) between getting off bupe after only a couple weeks, vs being on a month or longer. Although, probably not as bad if you are tapering like that; however, cutting fast seems to be working ok for me so well.

FYI - Today is day 10, I took 1.5mg 1x yesterday, and only .5mg so far today.

 

[VisceralChems]

So far:

Day 9: 1.5mg (1mg and .5mg later)
Day 10: 1.0mg (.5mg and .5mg later)
Day 11: .25mg (with another .25mg planned for later)

Of note, while I make it through the day just fine, I have been waking up mid night and early morning feeling like crap until I dose the sub...so possibly not stabilized, or possibly just the consequence of the fast taper.

Day 12: Probably will have to take at least .25mg based on how I have been feeling in the morning, and then will try to skip or jump altogether!

Either way, I want to get through the suboxone experience as fast as possible for fear of even worse post bupe WD.

P.S. If anyone has any recommendation whether I should "stabilize" at these really lose doses for a day or two, and then continue the taper (opposed to the fast 1/2 and jump plan I have been going with), I would appreciate the insight. Thanks in advance!

 

[bigzip44]

Listen to me please: Get off of the suboxone as quickly as possible or you will be on buprenorphine for the rest of your days. Trust me. That is just how the shit works and this is not conjecture it is my life.

 

[VisceralChems]

Listen to me please: Get off of the suboxone as quickly as possible or you will be on buprenorphine for the rest of your days. Trust me. That is just how the shit works and this is not conjecture it is my life.

Yes, and thank all of you for your input and care. I know that without BL, and if it were up to the Dr, I would probably be on this stuff forever. It definitely sucks tapering, and I can start to feel the claws of the bupe a bit, but it is manageable, I read and been given enough advice to know the best path is the fastest path that gets me off. Going as planned thus far.

 

[Carl Landrover]

Listen to me please: Get off of the suboxone as quickly as possible or you will be on buprenorphine for the rest of your days. Trust me. That is just how the shit works and this is not conjecture it is my life.

I was on it for 14 months at one point and I got off of it fine. Of those 14 months the last 2 were spent doing a slow taper. It was just a matter of patience really. No point in scaring people. The reason that it's helpful for some to be on it for at least a few months is so that they can start rebuilding their life so that they have positive things that they could lose if they started using again. It also gives a long break away from the habit and routine of using and gives time away from the scene and people that associate with it.

 

[VisceralChems]

I understand that, and I believe that is the doctors' perspective as well, but to be honest, there are soooo many accounts of torturous withdraws even after slowly tapering, that maybe it will go smooth, and maybe it wont, but I want to minimize my chances of failure as much as possible...and I can guarantee that if I am still withdrawing after three weeks...I don't see good things in terms of relapse.

 

[Carl Landrover]

^
If people were still having bad WDs then they didn't taper correctly. Plain and simple


Again, one of the reasons to stay on it is so that you are away from the scene. If you're away long enough you probably wouldn't even have the option to relapse. And if you're WDing for that long then you didn't taper correctly at all.

 

[VisceralChems]

So, I don't really know what to do...I feel trapped. I hate the way I feel ON suboxone (fatigue, tight head and/or headache, hard to focus, no appitite) and I have to redose at least twice a day or I will feel WD symptoms come on. So, don't feel good on it, don't feel good off it. Great.

The last couple days I have been stabilizing between .75-1mg as anything less would give me bad chills and/or severe calve pain. It could be I just don't react good to the bupe, but it makes it feel like a never ending hell...

I thought at first that it was just residual DT from the oxy that still hadnt fully subsided, but that was 15 days ago, and the fact that I feel like crap even when I have taken enough suboxone to stop the WD systems, leads be to believe it has to be at least partly the suboxone. Honestly, I don't know where I am going to go from here....

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Have you tried taking a higher dose just once in the morning? If it is affecting you like that, taking maybe 2mg's once in the morning, might make you feel a lot better.

 

[VisceralChems]

Well, the highest does I have taken at one time is 8mg....but it made me feel very uncomfortable, including even more symptoms that I listed above (like frantic / manic episodes) and the head + fatigue gets worse the higher I go. Granted, a 2mg dose felt way better than when compared to acute WDs...but after 15 days of feeling like crap, even on suboxone, it is just getting to me mentally. I just end up trading issues.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Why don't you try tapering off then and just stopping? You're already on a very low dose, so the withdrawals will not be that bad. And if you already feel like crap anyway on the suboxone, what's the point? You mine as well feel crappy knowing that within a few weeks, you're going to be a lot better and free from all dependencies.

 

[Lorne???]

You need to go between those doses then, try 3-4mg. But at this point a good dose of buprenorphine should hold you. They're I'd a chance that mentally, you simply never adjusted from taking 300-400mg oxy a day( a fucking high dose, no matter what anyone says) and your brain is kinda, well... Fucked. I would personally go 48hrs with absolutely nothing, then try a good dose of bupe. It sounds crazy, but allowing yourself to reach a state of total hell is sometimes the only way you can get yourself to feel "good" with buprenorphine, so that you can then be satisfied enough to get stable.

 

[Lorne???]

^^

Why don't you try tapering off then and just stopping? You're already on a very low dose, so the withdrawals will not be that bad. And if you already feel like crap anyway on the suboxone, what's the point? You mine as well feel crappy knowing that within a few weeks, you're going to be a lot better and free from all dependencies.

Yeah, that the other option, and certainly the ideal one. But it sounds like he is shifting doses, so it may not just be a "low" dose. Based on his particular situation, though, I'm not sure that is going to be a realistic option.

Honestly 300-400mg of oxy is when most people would go to methadone(whether the oxy was oral or IV/intranasal). Of course, methadone is a helluva lot harder to kick, and IMHO, a shitty option if you plan on quitting anytime soon, but for him it sounds like he may have needed it.