slimvictor
Bluelight Crew
You freaked me out, SP!
Maybe I will give up my dream of taking ayahuasca in a traditional setting...
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DPMC Moderators: tryptakid
British teenager dies in Colombia after drinking hallucinogenic drug in ritual
- Thread starter slimvictor
- Start date
Maybe I will give up my dream of taking ayahuasca in a traditional setting...
It's probably gibberish, really... this guy is naive and someone told him this and he bought it. There mightve been one odd guy who was schizophrenic\ mentally ill in some way and did this and there's a story about him, who knows, but if there's criticism to be made on "so-called shamans" its that a lot of them are more in it for the money than anything else... that's why these "experiences" are so unbelievably expensive, most of them...
I mean, surely some of them might abuse the position of power and trust they are put in, perhaps molest or be inappropriate in some way, but I don't think it goes as far as trying to syphon souls or any such belief or act...
I wouldn't have anything to do with this myself thought, and its sensible advice from the guy for people to think twice and be extra careful
I mean, surely some of them might abuse the position of power and trust they are put in, perhaps molest or be inappropriate in some way, but I don't think it goes as far as trying to syphon souls or any such belief or act...
I wouldn't have anything to do with this myself thought, and its sensible advice from the guy for people to think twice and be extra careful
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"This guy is naive"?
Don't you think that's a bit rude? You're making an awful lot of assumptions there - from a completely different cultural perspective, it's a bit harsh to label the perspective of a local - and the dark side of these ancient traditions and beliefs he is relating to us as "gibberish".
How many western religious/new age/homeopathic healers - or to look at it from another angle; drug dealers, bar owners and the like - are "more in it for the money than anything else"?
The reason I listed those examples - people involved various faith/spirituality/quackery - or people that offer mind-altering substances - is because western culture does not have any easily comparable cultural equivalent.
Do you have more information on this subject, or are you dismissing the whole concept of indigenous spirituality out of your own ignorance?
In stating that shamans are nothing more than money-driven charlatans is a bit rich coming from a Westerner.
Just because our culture is overrun by greedy, deceitful con artists - like "televangelists" or people in positions of authority who carry out terrible acts of abuse (paedophile priests, for example) - doesn't mean that other cultures are similarly lacking in spiritual belief systems or mythology that is respected and taken seriously by some people in South America...and that abuses of power can also occur within these cultural contexts.
Just the fact that these cultures have developed such an elaborate concoction as ayahuasca - containing both a plant source of DMT and another containing an MAOI (making the DMT orally active) is testament to the incredible indigenous knowledge that has been passed down over thousands of years to the current day. The understanding of the natural world that these cultures demonstrate is somewhat beyond anything westerners can immediately relate to.
Despite the horrific violence and cultural/spiritual suppression that many of these people endured following the colonisation of the Americas - there are still examples of ancient cultures that live on.
It may not fit in with modern western 'rational' thinking - but to suggest that shamans don't believe in their own spirituality is unbelievably narrow minded. Thankfully the colonial missionaries did not succeed in completely destroying all of the ayahuasca traditions, as they are still carried out today. Had they succeeded, our knowledge of DMT might be non-existent.
To dismiss a warning from a member of this forum - from Brazil - and call him 'naive' seems pretty hypocritical to me.
Sure - be cynical or sceptical about belief systems that you don't happen to share, if you wish - but read between the lines, man.
Whatever the specific belief drives these alleged instances of violence, torture or sexual assault - it is part of a wider cultural context that is not just some put-on for the tourists. DMT - and ayahuasca are - to this day - some of the most powerful and incredible mind altering agents known to man.
A culture that has been utilising such powerful tools - such powerful teachers - for a thousands of years is going to have some fairly incomprehensible ways of thinking - at least to people 'naive' of the power of this preparation.
It may not seem to fit with modern understandings of rational, scientific thought - but if you dig a little deeper and note that Dr Rick Strassman's groundbreaking research of DMT in the 1990s involved a quest to find a "spirit molecule" - essentially a chemical that may explain the religious and spiritual experiences of humanity across the globe - not just in the jungles of South America. This was DMT.
Yet Western science still has very limited knowledge of DMT and it's effect on humans.
Our (scientific) historical knowledge of DMT is in it's infancy, whereas shamanic traditions in South America are rooted in this incredible compound.
The ayahuasca ceremonies might bend tradition a bit - but the customs and spirituality are not some phony scam.
To dismiss it as such - and to call a local (who is relaying information to us about a discussion taking place regarding shamans, brujos - whilst acknowledging that this may be seen as urban myth or superstition) "naive" is really disrespectful - and, I daresay -"gibberish".
Oh my, I certainly struck a nerve there, didn't I?
Anyone can come here and post stuff like this, claiming to be from anywhere. In this posters case I do honestly believe that he is from Brazil and that he means well and wasn't trying to lie to anyone. I just think he mightve heard stories and given them too much credit.
I wholeheartedly agree with his warning and would advise people to be careful as well. I didn't mean to put him down or say his contribution wasn't good, it is. However him being south american doesn't mean he can't be wrong or misinformed.
Honestly I had written a very long post but I just wrote it off since I doubt you or people here would care and give it much thought. I didn't mean to write off the whole "shamanism" phenomenon or accuse all of them of being phony. If you re-read my post carefully you may see that, although at first it might've seemed so to you. I said "a lot of them", not all. I'm sure there are great people with a good hearts doing this, who are not mostly concerned with money, but I wouldn't put much faith in them being the majority. This is my own subjective opinion, just like 99% of what is posted by all of us in bluelight.
You accuse me of "dismissing the whole concept of indigenous spirituality out of my own ignorance".
However, I didn't dismiss it at all. I did make some criticisms to the practices of phony shamans, who do exist. You seem like a very sensitive person with a bit of bleeding heart when it comes to stuff like this, so I understand how that might skew your perspective of what I said and hit you the wrong way. Defender of poor, exploited south america, are you?
Anyone can come here and post stuff like this, claiming to be from anywhere. In this posters case I do honestly believe that he is from Brazil and that he means well and wasn't trying to lie to anyone. I just think he mightve heard stories and given them too much credit.
I wholeheartedly agree with his warning and would advise people to be careful as well. I didn't mean to put him down or say his contribution wasn't good, it is. However him being south american doesn't mean he can't be wrong or misinformed.
Honestly I had written a very long post but I just wrote it off since I doubt you or people here would care and give it much thought. I didn't mean to write off the whole "shamanism" phenomenon or accuse all of them of being phony. If you re-read my post carefully you may see that, although at first it might've seemed so to you. I said "a lot of them", not all. I'm sure there are great people with a good hearts doing this, who are not mostly concerned with money, but I wouldn't put much faith in them being the majority. This is my own subjective opinion, just like 99% of what is posted by all of us in bluelight.
You accuse me of "dismissing the whole concept of indigenous spirituality out of my own ignorance".
However, I didn't dismiss it at all. I did make some criticisms to the practices of phony shamans, who do exist. You seem like a very sensitive person with a bit of bleeding heart when it comes to stuff like this, so I understand how that might skew your perspective of what I said and hit you the wrong way. Defender of poor, exploited south america, are you?
I found this interesting thread on a ayahuasca forum about what the original event that started this thread.
http://forums.ayahuasca.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=38801
http://forums.ayahuasca.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=38801
If 'bleeding heart' is what you get called for calling someone out on their cynical slagging off of a really interesting post - one that offers a bit more perspective than what we non South Americans can offer on this subject - then yeah, call me a bleeding heart, if it makes you feel better.
I read your post carefully - hence my lengthy response to it. You don't need to emphasise that you said "some" - I am fully aware of that.
I suppose I do care about people in the world - in general terms - and frankly I found your post to be obnoxious; if you want to interpret me telling you that as sensitivity on my part, that's fine. Think what you like about me - I'm not the issue here, but i suppose it's flattering that you want to take it that way.
Don't take it personally - I didn't - I just took issue with what you wrote.
I hope to see SaciPerere post more on this and other topics, because informed opinions are a lot more interesting than uninformed opinions. I think it's kind of a shame when a greenlighter gets called "naive" by someone that signed up last month and claims to speak for - or to have even read "99% of what is posted by all of us on bluelight" - but you get that.
I can deal with it, and i hope you can too.
I read your post carefully - hence my lengthy response to it. You don't need to emphasise that you said "some" - I am fully aware of that.
I suppose I do care about people in the world - in general terms - and frankly I found your post to be obnoxious; if you want to interpret me telling you that as sensitivity on my part, that's fine. Think what you like about me - I'm not the issue here, but i suppose it's flattering that you want to take it that way.
Don't take it personally - I didn't - I just took issue with what you wrote.
I hope to see SaciPerere post more on this and other topics, because informed opinions are a lot more interesting than uninformed opinions. I think it's kind of a shame when a greenlighter gets called "naive" by someone that signed up last month and claims to speak for - or to have even read "99% of what is posted by all of us on bluelight" - but you get that.
I can deal with it, and i hope you can too.
Your brain works in interesting ways.
Defender of the poor exploited ones, you have deemed that his post is beyond the shadow of a doubt informed, and certainly not naive in any way. I have no idea why, but you are entitled to this opinion I guess.
You seem to think you and I know just as much about Brazil, that is, fuck all... oh well.
I'll go around and guess that you have never been to south america for a significant amount of time. That you know fuck all about brazil. That you have no idea what Saci Perere is. That you have a distanced, politically correct view of the whole issue.
All I said is that I find it highly unlikely that there are many people out there trying to syphon souls. Sounds like an urban legend, there might be or have been a few fucked up individuals here and there but thats all there is to it. If there are major problems with shamanism today it has to do with the monetarization of the experience and with abuse of the position of power and trust that they are put in.
Why you take such a gigantic issue with this view is something that baffles me quite a bit.
I never attacked his post, I never dismissed it. In fact, I agreed with it already in 2 or 3 different posts, and now in this one, with his advice and thanked him for his contribution. All I added was that I think that's stretching things too much and that the problems are of a different nature than soul syphoning or dark magic.
I find it pathetic that you care about post count or the time I signed up. It doesn't matter. I may or may not have posted in bluelight before with other accounts, I may or may not have been reading it for a long time. So might the "greenlighter". It makes you look very sad and egotistical worrying about something like this and behaving as if your account time\post account renders you a better position than us. Specially talking about an issue in which you are even less informed than I am, and a country that I doubt you truly know about. Ridiculous, immature. Fuck off mate.
Defender of the poor exploited ones, you have deemed that his post is beyond the shadow of a doubt informed, and certainly not naive in any way. I have no idea why, but you are entitled to this opinion I guess.
You seem to think you and I know just as much about Brazil, that is, fuck all... oh well.
I'll go around and guess that you have never been to south america for a significant amount of time. That you know fuck all about brazil. That you have no idea what Saci Perere is. That you have a distanced, politically correct view of the whole issue.
All I said is that I find it highly unlikely that there are many people out there trying to syphon souls. Sounds like an urban legend, there might be or have been a few fucked up individuals here and there but thats all there is to it. If there are major problems with shamanism today it has to do with the monetarization of the experience and with abuse of the position of power and trust that they are put in.
Why you take such a gigantic issue with this view is something that baffles me quite a bit.
I never attacked his post, I never dismissed it. In fact, I agreed with it already in 2 or 3 different posts, and now in this one, with his advice and thanked him for his contribution. All I added was that I think that's stretching things too much and that the problems are of a different nature than soul syphoning or dark magic.
I find it pathetic that you care about post count or the time I signed up. It doesn't matter. I may or may not have posted in bluelight before with other accounts, I may or may not have been reading it for a long time. So might the "greenlighter". It makes you look very sad and egotistical worrying about something like this and behaving as if your account time\post account renders you a better position than us. Specially talking about an issue in which you are even less informed than I am, and a country that I doubt you truly know about. Ridiculous, immature. Fuck off mate.
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Take a couple of deep breaths. It's alright.
Chill guys.
Oh no doubt it does boost their economic status, but then again the sanctity/purity of the ritual is damaged, as most Westerners aren't aware of the culture beyond tales of the drink and the cool visuals they hope to experience under its effects. Globalization historically has undermined those without the most power to begin with; it won't be good for them or their culture.
Oh no doubt it does boost their economic status, but then again the sanctity/purity of the ritual is damaged, as most Westerners aren't aware of the culture beyond tales of the drink and the cool visuals they hope to experience under its effects. Globalization historically has undermined those without the most power to begin with; it won't be good for them or their culture.