Mescaline , no headfuck??? Not so sure

[Solipsis]

I don't really find a 450 mg dose of the potent HCl salt of synthetic mescaline to be particularly headfucky like say almost any active dose of mushrooms are for me.

Maybe the term headfuck is really used too narrowly here, because mescaline can be incredibly visionary for me - radiantly glowing and cleansing my soul, showing me myself and my place in life... obviously this affects my head, but it is not being 'fucked' with.

Maybe you mean 'deep', to signify anything beyond fun and recreational? Because yes I would call mescaline deep in it's own right, even though it gives me a remarkable lack of confusion when compared to the profundity and meaningfulness. That would definitely be a major reason why I would not say it has a headfuck... it is not really the deep stuff but startling confusion that makes me wanna call something a headfuck: the feeling that I find something bizarre and I can't explain it, that I am unable to put what is happening in perspective.
Mushrooms do take my perspective away, the shroom trip tends to be obscure about what it does and to make it more fucked up it can be pretty overruling and deciding. That obviously requires a lot of letting go, to accept that you are being taken torrentially into a dream where a lot of questions are left unanswered.
LSD at very high doses can also be utterly weird, but I feel a lot less submissive to the trip which feels more 'fair'. At low to moderate doses I find LSD very agreeable in it's 'attitude'.
But 2C phens including mescaline can be downright easy about the trip's way about it, or behavior. They really level with you IMO.

 

[al-laddin]

Rght, that's basically what Im saying Solipsis. A lot of people that are novices or abstain from psychedleics ask me "aren't you afraid of freaking out", or say, "Im scare to lose my shit". I find the discussion and analization of a compounds "headfuck" rather important for this reason. Many people jump right into psychedelic deep end eating mushrooms because they assume "its natural" "theyre shrooms theyre cute". There seems to be sort of a general assumption that mushrooms are a good introduction to psychedelics but I have to disagree wholeheartedly. mushrooms will downright tear your soul to shreds. If you are uncomfortable with yourself to any degree or are lying to yourself, be prepaired to face that full on with psilocybin. I feel LSD will do this to a moderate degree but as you said its a bit easier to pull out of negative thought loops by simply changing the mood, scenery, etc.

cr00k, Its funny you say that but I believe I have some unusal enzyme activity or Im hyper sensitive to consciousness shifting because I always feel some effect within 10 minutes or less of ingesting a compound. Sometimes it takes a while for full effect to come on but the subtle shift for me when I use cacti is withim 20 mins tops. Everything will take on an electric look and closing my eyes will gibe me some very different slow-moving clay mation like visual activity. I find mescaline visuals superb.....on par with LSD but a quite different.

 

[Solipsis]

Rght, that's basically what Im saying Solipsis. A lot of people that are novices or abstain from psychedleics ask me "aren't you afraid of freaking out", or say, "Im scare to lose my shit". I find the discussion and analization of a compounds "headfuck" rather important for this reason. Many people jump right into psychedelic deep end eating mushrooms because they assume "its natural" "theyre shrooms theyre cute". There seems to be sort of a general assumption that mushrooms are a good introduction to psychedelics but I have to disagree wholeheartedly. mushrooms will downright tear your soul to shreds. If you are uncomfortable with yourself to any degree or are lying to yourself, be prepaired to face that full on with psilocybin. I feel LSD will do this to a moderate degree but as you said its a bit easier to pull out of negative thought loops by simply changing the mood, scenery, etc.

Absolutely!

Combined with the fact that 1/8th / 3.5 grams cubensis is often considered a standard for dosage, even that is a way to misinterpret it being a "full dose"... I think that 3.5 grams is pretty damn strong.
However part of the incongruity with LSD dosage comes from actual LSD doses being typically considerably lower than what hits are advertised and sold as.
I don't think mescaline use is really not prevalent enough (especially under beginning trippers) to really include it in comparisons, and more than half the time it comes in cacti with varying potency. Although granted, mushrooms vary in potency as well - still mushrooms are weighed much more often than cacti appear to be.

So both quantitatively and qualitatively the perspective on different psychedelics is pretty skewed.

I can get pretty tired from the natural vs. synthetic discussion and all the fallacies to deal with (not saying that I know the whole truth, but still).

 

[GreenMachine]

i have never been offered mescaline when i have had a chance to test it with a kit--when it appears it usually disappears as fast as it came. i have never taken it, but would love to. the people that i have talked to all said that it takes you to incredibly deep places, but that the ride there isnt as rocky and confusing as it would be with mushrooms or L. they noted that the body high felt somewhat like ecstasy does. the visuals they described seemed like the visuals from 2C-B, 2C-E, etc.

i am sure with any substance that can take you to a "deep" place, there is a chance for it to become confusing, or challenging. it all depends on the person and their psyche.

 

[Solipsis]

A very good point, plenty of people are really used to sobriety or if anything else the lesser challenging types of intoxication... the fact alone that it is different from normal experience can be a problem or hang-up for people.
The reason might not be far removed from the reason why people often fear what they don't understand.

There are different types of 'understanding', there is integrating emotionally, there is intellectual understanding, there is intuitive understanding... I have a condition that can make emotional things challenging, but analytically / rationally I rarely have much issues. Still I find mushrooms difficult on a lot of fronts, on mescaline it is just the meaning that has to be integrated and I doubt anyone can really escape that (nor do I think they should).
Anyway I don't think that everyone is equally open to novelty. Narrow-minded and dogmatic thinking are for example not conductive to that.

 

[al-laddin]

Now interestingly, the various mescaline containing cacti DO have other alkaloids that seem to subjectively YET consistently effect the trip. Bridgesii seems to have the most potent actives within the Trichocerious (sp?) group. Many people consistently claim it is a darker and more confusing journey with more body load and side effects. Also the mescaline content is consistently higher which may not be a lab results saying this but word of mouth. So Perhaps the mescaline content does remain inconsistent but the maoi's involved have an effect on potentiation and character of this cactus in particular. Friends of mine say "its no joke, I warn you" in reference to bridgessi. Peyote on the other hand I have no idea about other that it does indeed contain other actives.

Now mescaline is subjectively easier than mushrooms or LSD. (but I am refuting this with my reason being many have no idea how much mescaline they have consumed and are basing it on assumptions)This is general consensus with a reasonable and non -heroic does. When you dose heroicly any compound can take you to very dark and confusing headspaces.

Solipsis, I have noticed also as Ive gotten older many of my peers dropped off the psychedelic use and when I ask them why they answer "its just not the same, its gets TOO WEIRD for me" or "every time I trip now it I get weird". Its VERY common that tripping when your in your teens was generally much more free spirited for some reason. Psychologically as teens we were all able to bounce back like rubber. The "weirdness" wasn't too much to handle then. 3.5 grams of mushrooms was about equal to two hits of good LSD back then and I could do that blindfolded on a school night while standing on my head. (In the 90s one hit of acid would rock you most of the time) Now I cant take more than 1.5 grams without being effected by ego loss and have to take weeks to integrate it.


Back on the topic of mescaline. SO I firmly believe mescaline is challenging in proper psychedelic doses. Not to mention it lasts longer than many other psychedelics and I have heard anecdotaly that mescaline is a bit more immune to benzos than LSD or psilocybin. In other words its a bit harder to calm a bad trip if it happens with the aid of a benzo. The clearheaded character and the absolutely fantastic visions I have witnessed on this compound are absolutely outstanding however. I feel its worthy to seek out for every brave psychonaut as its very rewarding and its not the MOST challenging psychedelic headfuck but its not the easiest going either.

 

[Xorkoth]

But they both only really have only 1 psychoactive alkaloid - mescaline. The rest just make you vomit your arsehole up. The theory is that pedro is less nauseating than peyote because there's fewer bullshit alkaloids to ingest along with the mescaline.

I'm not convinced anyone could tell the difference between synthetic psilocybin and mushrooms.

I disagree with this. Although we've had this discussion probably a few times over the years. But I think the other alkaloids of a plant often produce substantially different effects when taken in combination with the main alkaloid (mescaline in this case). I've only had san pedro or peruvian torch cactus, so I can't say with mescaline, but I have had mushrooms many times and pure 4-HO-DMT twice and the 4-HO-DMT trip, though of course very similar in many ways, was entirely unique from a mushroom trip, much faster and more lucid, almost entirely mental. And much more direct as well. But one of the primary qualities of mushrooms for me is a deep connection to my physicality and animal nature, and pure 4-HO-DMT was entirely mental/emotional. It is clear to me that the other alkaloids in mushrooms, even though 4-HO-DMT is the main one, play a large role in the effects.

I will admit there is a chance I wouldn't be able to tell them apart in a double-blind, but I am extremely confident in my ability to do so.

 

[Ismene]

Does it have to be purely down to the difference in the alkaloids tho? Or does the difference in how you take it alter the effects? For example taking DMT rectally is like taking a completely different drug to taking it orally. Obviously taking 4-ho is going to come-up a lot quicker than eating mushrooms because of how long it takes to digest mushrooms. Does 4-ho suddenly hitting your brain rather than mushrooms gradually taking effect over the course of 2 hours alter your perception of the experience?

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Hahahaha ahhhhh headfucked yet? Different brains different subjective experiences. Generally most ahhh fuck it I'm tripping on some lovely 4 aco dmt with other pharmacological friends as adjuncts. You feel head fucked from mescaline HCL? Try the headfuck of extracting that lovely crystal alkaloid. Indeed most drugs give you serious headfuck... ISmene just get some 4 aco dmt or 4 ho dmt and answer your own questions. I'm sure you will love the experience if you have not already used these substances. Answer yes Mesc HCL or in general does give me some degree of headfuck I'd expect any PEA to do the same and most tryptamines as well.

 

[Psychonautical]

Listen i know people who feel head fucked from MDMA, but that is because it is getting them in touch with the shit that is going on inside of themselves that they aren't aware of.
I know people who get headfucked from a wide variety of things, but not all the time and usually at different junctures in their life involving the consumption of substances. Ultimately "headfucked" i feel is like the personal learning curve.
You need these states of weirdness and confusion and thinking with evolved clarity to perpetually help you understand a "knot' within your Symbiosis between us and this reality.

I've conquered the learning curve with Mescaline i feel and Mdma, which i'm not exactly proud of. But, whatever.
I was gifted with an atomic head fuck from mushrooms last summer, where the world literally spun in complete 360 degree parallels across the subjective scope of both reality and hallucination. Which ultimately lead to me breaking down something haaaard.
But those learning experiences aren't an always thing. They are a fundamental of tripping and you have to learn to expect it at one point or another.

 

[Νιοβη λος]

Absolutely!

Combined with the fact that 1/8th / 3.5 grams cubensis is often considered a standard for dosage, even that is a way to misinterpret it being a "full dose"... I think that 3.5 grams is pretty damn strong.
However part of the incongruity with LSD dosage comes from actual LSD doses being typically considerably lower than what hits are advertised and sold as.
I don't think mescaline use is really not prevalent enough (especially under beginning trippers) to really include it in comparisons, and more than half the time it comes in cacti with varying potency. Although granted, mushrooms vary in potency as well - still mushrooms are weighed much more often than cacti appear to be.

So both quantitatively and qualitatively the perspective on different psychedelics is pretty skewed.

I can get pretty tired from the natural vs. synthetic discussion and all the fallacies to deal with (not saying that I know the whole truth, but still).

When I was younger, me and my friends would only eat like eighths of fungus. Why? Probably because this 3.5 gram standard was so predominant where we lived. Eating anything below 2 grams didn't cross our naive minds. It's no wonder I have lost control on so many mushroom trips. Like I was being controlled and thrown around by a domineering puppetmaster, I was a little puppet on strings and if I was lucky I would stay conscious to witness the madness. The one time we ate over 5 grams, and there were blackouts followed by a pseudo death.

Talk about being stupid.

The last few times I have been wary to eat more than 2 grams. And would only eat strains that I know what they are or have a vague idea as to how potent they are. But then I don't really eat fungus that often. Would probably only be interested to eat some wild picked forest varieities nowadays. Don't see that happening though.

Who the hell implented the 3.5 gram standard anyways? Shame on them. Shame on me for blindly following the suggestions of my friends in high school.

 

[Ismene]

ISmene just get some 4 aco dmt or 4 ho dmt and answer your own questions.

I've had some 4-aco love. Comes up too fast for me, I prefer mushrooms.

 

[ShroomBerries]

I have done Mescaline only once using a San Pedro cactus ( which can be bought legally online at Amazon.com). It was like a weird shroom trip that lasted FOREVER. Like 36 hours, no joke. I thought it was never going to stop lol, I freaked out and called my shrink who told me to just smoke some weed and sit down on the couch until it wore off. About 36 hours into the trip I finally slept and still felt like I was semi-tripping for about 3 days after I initially took it. I will never do it again lol. I prefer 14 grams of mushrooms to it any day.

 

[al-laddin]

Hahahaha ahhhhh headfucked yet? Different brains different subjective experiences. Generally most ahhh fuck it I'm tripping on some lovely 4 aco dmt with other pharmacological friends as adjuncts. You feel head fucked from mescaline HCL? Try the headfuck of extracting that lovely crystal alkaloid. Indeed most drugs give you serious headfuck... ISmene just get some 4 aco dmt or 4 ho dmt and answer your own questions. I'm sure you will love the experience if you have not already used these substances. Answer yes Mesc HCL or in general does give me some degree of headfuck I'd expect any PEA to do the same and most tryptamines as well.

See, I have actally experienced a virtually headfuck free trip this last year, for the first time ever. It was 25c nbome, which in my experience was pure psychedelic hedonism. Funny thing is it did feel like a mescaline trip to a huge degree but less headfuck and maybe a bit more awkwardly stimulating.

 

[Ismene]

It was like a weird shroom trip that lasted FOREVER. Like 36 hours, no joke.

36 hours berries? Are you sure?

 

[al-laddin]

I can see that ismene, Lsd typically lasts 14-16 hours for me.....sometimes I still get cevs well into the next day....and mescalines action is quite a bit longer and considering it takes a bit longer to ingest for most and theres more to digest I see 36 hours as being plausible, especially for someone who is unusually sensitive to the compound

 

[crOOk]

I thought it was never going to stop lol, I freaked out and called my shrink who told me to just smoke some weed and sit down on the couch until it wore off.

LOL WHAT?! In my experience pot can potentiate psychedelics quite a bit. Still a pretty cool shrink it seems lol.

 

[Dark Horse]

Headfuck, eh ?

A friend extracted three doses of mescaline hcl from P. Torch cactus chips, each 342 mgs.

We hit the peak at about six hours, and a lot of the ride up felt like clean MDMA.

My married friend said he did a lot of thinking about his family at one stage, somewhere after seven hours, but I don't think any of the three of us regarded the effect on our heads to be particularly heavy. Significant, yes. But at that dose it was largely a social drug. Upping it by a few hundred mgs, perhaps doubling it, or even further, say to 800 or 900 mgs, would take you into different territory from accounts that I've read.

The first time i used cactus was 50 grams of P. Torch chips ground up and swallowed with water. It came on within an an hour and in my estimation we got very high, but we never really lost track of what we were doing. I think that's a medium dose anyway, and it never felt threatening. I'd say that is the consistent part with mescaline, that it never seemed to cause me to go into thought looping, or make me wish I hadn't done it.

 

[Solipsis]

Does it have to be purely down to the difference in the alkaloids tho? Or does the difference in how you take it alter the effects? For example taking DMT rectally is like taking a completely different drug to taking it orally. Obviously taking 4-ho is going to come-up a lot quicker than eating mushrooms because of how long it takes to digest mushrooms. Does 4-ho suddenly hitting your brain rather than mushrooms gradually taking effect over the course of 2 hours alter your perception of the experience?

I've taken pure 4-HO-DMT orally and it was much more like DMT to me than like mushrooms. Yes the kinetics are different with such absorption, maybe more like mushroom tea... but still whereas I find mushrooms lethargic, dreamy and very confusing+mindfucking, the 4-HO-DMT gave me an energetic come-up and a flash reminding of MDMA and DMT.
Of course it always remains subjective but I agree that it totally feels like the other compounds in mushrooms matter... maybe because they are competitive for MAO, maybe because they modulate and complicate the action of psilocin.
Unfortunately only double blind tests will tell but this is my opinion and theory. And placebo + suggestion doesn't seem like the necessary, only or obvious explanation.

 

[Ismene]

I found it more similar to DMT too. Mushrooms are a lot dreamier. Perhaps it is the different compounds in mushrooms. Although Maria Sabina reckoned that psilocybin pills were good enough to replace mushrooms with.