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Human connection, is there an alternative to MDMA?

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Triphops

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Nov 10, 2013
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I found it hard to make a topic that fully explained what I'm after here. I've done MDMA a few times and I find it immensely powerful at growing connections between people, that is if you spend the time talking about your deepest feelings. I've seen MDMA teach people how deep friendships can go and I've also managed to teach some of my friends how they can change their life to become happier. MDMA has an ability to lower defensive mechanism in a way that a person can be truly open to suggestions about themselves which can make a conversation through MDMA life changing. LSD has kind of the same ability and talking about inner feelings on LSD can be even more valueful, but LSD doesn't really lower inhibitions so if the person isn't open to talk about themselves when sober, they probably won't do it on LSD. As much as I love MDMA, I'm taking at least two month breaks between trips to prevent tolerance and to not lose the magic of it, but oh so would love to be able to talk like that more often! What I'm asking is if there are other drugs that can do the same thing? That is to make people honest and willing to talk about the things that are the most dear to them without clogging up their minds? Sure alcohol often make people open up, but we all know how useless our minds get on alcohol, I rarely see a conversation through alcohol that's life changing. Does anyone understand where I'm coming from here? :)
 
Other serotonin-releasing agents cause similar effects. You should look for drugs that induce enctactogenesis. That's the effect you're looking for.
 
I've found ghb to be good for this. Also ghb sex is the best thing ever ;)
 
I've done some more reading about empathogens and I see a great deal of candidates, like 4-FMA and 6-APB. It would be nice to find something that's similar to MDMA, but without the tolerance build up, but I guess I'm not the first one on the lookout for this :P The primary qualities I search for is the ability to open up while still feeling like one self, euphoria, empathy and feeling loved-up isn't that important. I'm not sure of how to explain this, but some drugs (like most psychedelics I believe?) preserve feeling of ones true self, like a part of you i still sober and genuine thus making any realizations made while on the drug real and still there the day after. I've had many epiphanies while drunk, like being convinced that I'm in love with the bartender and starts planning on a vacation with her, but these feelings are all but present the day after :P I'm not too familiar with GHB, but I was under the impression that GHB was a lot like alcohol in this way?

Are there empathogens that don't cause heavy and perhaps chronic tolerance? Or is there a direct correlation with drugs that release a lot of serotonin and long lasting tolerance?
 
any strong Monoamine (serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine) releaser, such as MDMA and closely related drugs will build up some kind of tolerance when used more frequently. you've been pretty responsible so far in my opinion, why would you risk going too far? This forum is full of people who overdid MDMA and experienced adverse aftereffects...

and btw, if you want to have a similar mindset sober, you should definitely work on it, but taking more drugs won't be the answer. You say, MDMA lowers your inhibitions to talk about your deepest feelings. well maybe your task is to start lower these inhibitions in your sober mindset, if that is what you want.
 
Am I the only one who finds that the "connection" established on MDMA fizzles out later? I become a total curmudgeon once the downer kicks in, which is usually 5-8 days later. Can't count the number of times I had meaningful interactions with people at events where everyone was on MDMA, traded contact info, and then when we tried to connect later one or both of us was like, "Um... who are you?"

I wish there were a drug like MDMA without the downer, but I guess that's the whole dilemma.
 
There really is no replacement for the good old mdma its too good but I have had some pretty meaning full/homie creating expierences on low to medium dose mushrooms. If you keep it under the mind fuck threshold its like a trippy roll.
 
Triphops said:
like 4-FMA
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most probably your mixing up 4-fa, which is an mild empathogen, with 4-fma. Which imo felt like some sort of speed.

I second (or third) for GHB. Although it certainly resembles alcohol in general, the connection with other it gives is workable as it leaves ones brain intact. Very hard to explain the differences but they are nothing alike on that point and G has more of an Mdma-feel in that regards. Maybe the oxytocin release and ghb receptor are responseable?
 
The drug is only a key. The doors you unlock exist in you already.
I know this is not the answer you are seeking but there is nothing you can learn on a drug that you cannot learn while not on drugs.
 
I was just coming along to say exactly this but azure cloud has said it perfectly. When I was young I used a lot of life changing drugs and I am more than willing to honor that some of the knowledge I gained about myself and the larger world came from those drug experiences. But once those doors to perception have been opened the integration is the most powerful and lasting effect. When you have seen just how deep into connection you can go--with yourself, with others, with the earth-- without fear blocking your emotions and trust, then it becomes your responsibility to live that way IMO. Most of my values were not created by psychedelics but they were certainly informed and deepened by them. My profound love of the earth, translated into a life of environmental activism, has its roots in both my childhood and my teenage use of peyote, mescaline, LSD and mushrooms. This was my path but I work alongside so many people that have never used a psychedelic drug in their lives who experience the very same level of connection with the planet. By the same token, I have met many more people that have chosen a path of compassion,through honesty, self-awareness and vulnerability, through practices of meditation, their spiritual convictions or simply wanting to live open lives than people that actually live these changes due to their insights while on MDMA or any other empathogen.

I am a huge supporter of psychedelic therapy. The work that MAPS and Johns Hopkins are doing in this area is vital in this age of numbing psychiatric drugs and their successes are indisputable. But as therapeutic tools they are treated like any other drugs--used sparingly and in low doses, with intention and in a safe setting with a trained guide. The goal is for the opening to take place, not to become something that the person has to use for life in order to open. It takes courage and focus to learn yourself and to act from a place of compassion. I fail at this over and over and yet the desire and intention to understand, know and create myself while in this life is my compass. I still have to hold the oars, row the boat, get to know the stars and what to do when bad weather happens but it all emanates from the compass.
 
Triphops, I completely understand where you're coming from. MDMA gives us a dramatic new perspective on friendships, and it makes perfect sense to apply that perspective more often than every couple of months. However, as far as I know there isn't a good way to achieve drug-induced entactogenesis more often than that.

As you mentioned, LSD is a candidate but it can't really be called a replacement for MDMA in this particular effect. This is because LSD and MDMA both act on a part of the central nervous system (CNS) called the serotonin system, which as you might expect deals with the neurotransmitter serotonin. Serotonin is involved in a variety of bodily functions, from sleep and appetite to joy and human connections. Drugs like LSD and MDMA alter the serotonin system, and that's part of how they change the way we feel. Such drugs are called "serotonergic drugs" and the effects that they share in common (heightened energy, emotional connectedness, enhanced senses, etc. ) are called "serotonergic effects."

LSD and MDMA have different serotonergic effects because they act on the serotonin system in different ways. LSD causes the CNS to release more serotonin, making us happier and more energetic, among other things. MDMA, on the other hand, causes the CNS to empty it's serotonin reserves, literally flooding the brain with serotonin. That's why MDMA's serotonergic/entactogenic effects are much more dramatic, but it's also why we can't take MDMA as frequently - when you use up reserve serotonin faster than it can be recovered, bad things start to happen.

As far as I know, any drug that achieves an effect similar to MDMA's must also be a serotonin releasing agent. That means squeezing Methylone or 6-APB doses between your normal MDMA doses is going to be just as bad as taking MDMA twice as often. They're all just using up serotonin.

TL;DR: Even if you find a good MDMA substitute, you can't roll more often because you're still just using up serotonin.

P.S: I have to add another +1 to Azure Cloud's sentiment. You should really be on the lookout for friends you can strongly connect with, without using drugs. It's hard work and such people aren't common, but it's worth the effort.
 
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psilocybin mushrooms are a good alternative to LSD, if that is a route you want to consider. I believe the active chemical actually mimics serotonin in structure, not causing a chemical cascade like MDMA, but substituting itself upon the very same receptors that serotonin would sit.

Physically psilocybin is much more gentle than other alternatives. But the downside is that you have less control over where a trip takes you, at least on higher doses. Kind of a crap shoot unless you carefully plan your set and setting (state of mind and external environment).

These mushrooms are, with a little research, easy to cultivate and are great teachers. If you over do it, you generate a tolerance -temporarily. I've actually found that subthreshold doses work great as an antidepressant, useful for quiting opiates and cigarettes..

But in all my experience, the issues we overcome on our own are the lessons we internalize the deepest.
 
I agree with the above. I'd ditch MDMA entirely for mushrooms if shit made any sense whatsoever while tripping lol...feel super connected and euphoric, but mostly incoherent haha
 
trozzle said:
I agree with the above. I'd ditch MDMA entirely for mushrooms if shit made any sense whatsoever while tripping lol...feel super connected and euphoric, but mostly incoherent haha
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Practice makes perfect....lol....kill enough brain cells and everything makes sense....wait, what are we talking about?
 
LSD causes the CNS to produce more serotonin, making us happier and more energetic, among other things
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LSD definitely does not "cause the CNS to produce more serotonin....

sorry for being a smartass ;)
 
Azure Cloud said:
Practice makes perfect....lol....kill enough brain cells and everything makes sense....wait, what are we talking about?
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Hahaha yeah I was getting the hang of it around this time last year, but have only tripped once since then on a much smaller dosage and made no sense rofl
 
trozzle said:
Hahaha yeah I was getting the hang of it around this time last year, but have only tripped once since then on a much smaller dosage and made no sense rofl
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I love mushrooms, but take em on a whim with little forethought and they will definitely kick your ass. I don't abuse mushrooms, mushrooms abuse me.
 
Yeah this is more-or-less what I'm after, well at least for the largest percentage of my drug portfolio haha

It's tough.. keep reading, do your research, but I mean, everybody reacts to things differently. Maybe narrow your list, buy some chems from a legit source, and test them safely. Only real way to find out what you like.
 
Azure Cloud said:
I love mushrooms, but take em on a whim with little forethought and they will definitely kick your ass. I don't abuse mushrooms, mushrooms abuse me.
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Night of my 25th birthday. 8 grams of very dehydrated P.cubensis. Busy as fuark nightclub.....how do you form thoughts again??? bahahaha
 
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