EADD Heroin Discussion Nininininineteen [19] (I wasn't really sure what was going on)

[blondin]

At 51 and a user for 30 years or so Im pretty sure that i will be on one type of opiate or other - its just been part of my life for so long. Done CT too many times to remember and wont do it again. Got a script that i pick up monthly so have enough phy pills to keep me going when no gear is about or i want to take a break. In terms of stats after 1-2 years on gear you have a 5% chance of staying clean the only people i know who stopped were the ones i use to run with in my early 20's who were only using for a year or so - went to rehab and do the meetings and stayed clean.
Still have the junkie dream to go to some place where gear is $2 a gram and just stay in a hut and who knows may still do it onme day - had a chance of redundancy recently and coud have walked off with a tidy some which could have set up this fantasy but family gets in the way.
Gear still okk here 100 for an1/8th not pd stuff pretty close tho'.3 will nod me out or rather would do if i wasnt using so fucking much or get the raw stuff at a tenner a point back up to a g a day so i really am taking a break now for at least 10 days or till i taper downn to 10mg of 'done.
Been doing valium and wine the last 2 nights but the valium really fuck me in the morning cos of the damn long 1/2 life im just as fuzzled as the night before and takes me 2 hours to 'wake' up. ah well enough waffle - good to see you about strungout drop me a text/pm let me know how ya doin.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

I am prescribed 400mg of MST a day,but I try to get by on less
to get a morphine script,I think you will normally need some legit medical need.Just being a junkie will usually just get you a referral to addiction services and from there,a meth or subby script

This. Unless you go private.

 

[Shambles]

Is being on Bupe for pain helping you out mentally?

I'm no longer on bupe for pain or anything else cos they cut my script off for missing too many pickups. I have the sneezing fits and sleepless nights and achy bits to prove it too

It's a bit swings and roundabouts for me on the mental side. There is the inevitable dulling of everything which comes from taking any opi daily for any reason. On t'other hand I'm a lot more stable on the whole when on bupe. It kinda depends what is most relevant to me at the time as to whether the overall package is worthwhile or not. My current support worker thinks I'd be better off back on bupe, I mostly agree but being basically off it again am again wondering if it's worth it given it's been made clear I won't be scripted longterm unless I do a much better job of convincing the prescribing doc of why that should be the case. And also actually making it to the chemist every day. And the government changing their stupid policy.

Meh fuck that, will be months of bullshit tapering, I want out. No point going through months of bullshit tapering just for it to still be utterly shitty when you jump off at the end anyway.

... it's dead easy to jump off bupe. Just taper down to 0.2mg (lowest prescribed pill size) and you barely get a sniffle let alone anything else. CT from 24mg is simply setting yourself up for another round of abuse and detox further down the line. My opinion and all that.

IWould love to see stats relating to the long term prognosis for smackheads.It's something we hear so little about.Maybe they go onto meds,like me.As a prescribed addict,maybe this is how we live out our lives.

Only figures I've seen relating to that are that the average relapse rate is ~95% with no support (didn't say how many times the person has gone through cycles previously but did say that it refers to people relapsing within 5y of quitting). Relapse rate for folk using NA/12 Step is 97%. Nearly twice as likely to relapse if you rely on that 'Higher Power' so probably better to rely on yourself I'd suggest.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

... it's dead easy to jump off bupe. Just taper down to 0.2mg (lowest prescribed pill size) and you barely get a sniffle let alone anything else. CT from 24mg is simply setting yourself up for another round of abuse and detox further down the line. My opinion and all that.

I'm a fast metaboliser, bupe doesn't even hold me for 24 hours. I feel withdrawal every day before taking my dose, tapering will mean a considerable period of being uncomfortable and unable to operate like a normal human being. I'd much rather just get it done with and be able to concentrate on moving on with the essential parts of my recovery that will hopefully lead me towards some stability. Personally I don't believe the route from dependence to being clean has anything to do with the likelihood of relapse, I believe it's about the changes one either does or doesn't make to one's thought patterns and behaviours that matter. Certainly I've never seen any academic evidence to suggest that a taper reduces the chance of relapse.

 

[Shambles]

I'd agree fast vs slow w/d is a personal thing but I know I fail miserably whenever I try crash detoxing. I couldn't rightly say I've ever actually fully and completely quit cos I have always had a wee dabble even during prolonged periods of what is ostensibly abstinence but I do a helluva lot better when I taper down. I think I'm a slow metaboliser though cos my doses of certain drugs - codeine and bupe especially - seem to last me a helluva lot longer than they do for some folk.

Pee Ess: And I totally agree on the mind and behaviour changes being the most important factor whatever type of detox is involved. It's just that I don't find the time to actually make any changes with a rapid detox. It's easy to "know" everything is gonna be different this time around before the actual detox cos otherwise nobody would ever bother trying to detox. The changes that come whilst detoxing are more of an issue I find and they cannot be pre-empted by definition. At least I can't conceive of how they can be - it's a big ol' change from addicted to not and those changes are in every aspect of life.

I also saw you've been there and done it plenty times to know all this so will wish you all the best. Good luck with it whatever you go for

 

[curious_24]

For reference, I start to feel withdrawal within 6 hours of my last dose. The euphoria is gone within the hour

I'm talking about codeine and just realised I'm posting in the heroin thread. Mods, please feel free to delete if deemed appropriate.

 

[Shambles]

Meh. Stick with codeine. Heroin turnaround time is somewhat quicker

 

[maxalfie]

I think I must be a slow metaboliser as I can take my methadone dose around 10am & it holds me just fine through to the following day whereas my friend can take the same dose at the same time and by around 6pm he is feeling shaky & in need of a little top up.

 

[Shambles]

Methadone never did hold me close to 24h. Not entirely convinced it actually does come down to simple slow vs fast metabolism myself. Seems to be a more complex beast.

 

[strungout2010]

I'm the opposite max whatever dose I'm on whether it's 90 ml or 40 ml , if I take it all at once it never holds me. Split in half the dose holds me fine.
And I agree with shambles jumping off 24 ml of bupe is a big fucking ask, last detox I did was a walk in the park , rapid detox jumped off at 2 ml couldn't believe how easy it was.
Infact that was part of the reason I relapsed. ( but that's another story ).

 

[maxalfie]

I'm interested in people that have tried both bupe & methadone,which one did you prefer & why? I guess everyone who has tried both will probably have different opinions as to which drug is the most effective.

 

[Shambles]

Bupe. By a very long way indeed. I prefer to feel perky and positive rather than sedated and depressed. Bupe gave me the former, 'done the latter. Bupe is also massively easier to taper and - specifically - quit. It's one of those things you'll probably get a different answer from everybody for but the difference is night and day to me. You couldn't pay me to take methadone.

 

[maxalfie]

Yeah I expect everyone will have their own preference.
I have never tried bupe myself but I now wish I had given it a try as opposed to methadone.
I have not used heroin for a fair while now but yet I'm still on methadone but reducing slowly. My friend hasn't touched heroin for just over 4 years now but he is also still on methadone
It just seems we have swapped one addiction for another although I think it is the numbness from methadone that I 'enjoy'. Not sure I'd have wanted to have a clearer head especially in the early days of quitting heroin.

 

[Shambles]

I switched to bupe once I got down to either 35ml or 25ml of 'done. Can't recall which but there's a set upper limit you have to reach before switching to avoid precipitated w/d. Speak to your DSP or prescribing doctor if you're interested in making the switch. It is ultimately subjective but I can honestly say it was absolutely night and day for me. On meth I never felt there was light at the end of the tunnel and frankly didn't give much of a shit cos I was miserable. Within a couple days of switching to bupe my attitude changed 180 degrees. Actually went a bit too far the other way which kinda set up a bit of a rebound policy but such is life. I found bupe much easier to fit into having a life that didn't revolve around opies. I didn't take the time to actually fill out that chance at a life with enough solidity for it to stick completely but that was down to being overly keen to quit completely asap I believe. Personally I'd say make the switch cos you can always switch back if it doesn't suit and it could make a real difference. It's not for all but for those it works for it works an absolute treat.

 

[strungout2010]

Iv never been on a bupe maintenance , only did a 12 day detox and it was a peace of piss,
Iv been on methadone on and off for 20 + years and there's no contest in my eyes what's best to detox off.
Methadone is fucking horrible, although it's kept me stable and let me live a half normal life, I now feel the toll it's took on my body.
IMO bupe wins hands down, but it's all a bit to late for me, bupe wasn't about when I first got scripted , and when I did get the option to change , I stuck with the jollop so I could still use gear.
A choice I regret now.

 

[Shambles]

A choice that can be reconsidered at any time too... '

Yeah. The not being able to use on top thing is a dealbreaker for some. I'd suggest those would be folk not really thinking in terms of quitting so much as scoring off the NHS to tide over the rough patches though. I am in no way slagging off the latter cos I did plenty of that for very many years. It was bupe that was different for me once I was decided that I really was gonna give that quiiting thing a proper go though. I do still wobble back and forth and am by no means "quit" anything but I don't feel like a junkie anymore and that makes a much bigger difference than I ever expected it to. I'm quite big on "Junky Pride" but for those that do want to try to change things I honestly do think bupe is the way to go. Methadone can only ever hold you at best - it doesn't do a damn thing for cravings or for making you feel anything beyond comfortably sedated. I remembered what waking up in the morning feeling okay and up to doing stuff without having to worry about backmonkies when I switched from 'done to bupe. I am a bit of a bupe evangelist though and am aware YMMV as in all things. I really do think it's the obvious option for any who want to try to get away from the lifestyle in at least semi-concerted ways though.

 

[maxalfie]

I switched to bupe once I got down to either 35ml or 25ml of 'done. Can't recall which but there's a set upper limit you have to reach before switching to avoid precipitated w/d. Speak to your DSP or prescribing doctor if you're interested in making the switch. It is ultimately subjective but I can honestly say it was absolutely night and day for me. On meth I never felt there was light at the end of the tunnel and frankly didn't give much of a shit cos I was miserable. Within a couple days of switching to bupe my attitude changed 180 degrees. Actually went a bit too far the other way which kinda set up a bit of a rebound policy but such is life. I found bupe much easier to fit into having a life that didn't revolve around opies. I didn't take the time to actually fill out that chance at a life with enough solidity for it to stick completely but that was down to being overly keen to quit completely asap I believe. Personally I'd say make the switch cos you can always switch back if it doesn't suit and it could make a real difference. It's not for all but for those it works for it works an absolute treat.

I saw the doctor at my DSP last week and mentioned to him that I'd been thinking about changing from methadone to bupe if it was possible.
I'm currently taking 35ml methadone daily & he said I'd only need to reduce a little bit more if I did indeed go ahead with making the switch.
I have been thinking about it for a while. One of the reasons I quit heroin was because I felt I was no longer the person I once was and that I had lost my personality that I once had. Methadone has in no way helped me get back to the person I used to be & the person I wish to be again.
If bupe can make me feel perky & positive then that's how I would love to feel again.
If it doesn't work or I just don't get on with it then I guess I could just go back to the meth.

 

[maxalfie]

I stuck
with the jollop so I could still use gear.
A choice I regret now.

Yeah that's the problem with methadone,it is still too easy to use heroin on top of it.
I think that like a lot of people I know I really used the methadone as a safeguard to ensure i would not have to cluck if i had no cash to score with. It was more to avoid illness than to quit gear when I began my script.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Methadone never did hold me close to 24h. Not entirely convinced it actually does come down to simple slow vs fast metabolism myself. Seems to be a more complex beast.

This.

When I was stable on 80ml of juice it would hold me for far longer than 24 hours, when I've cracked during a heroin detox one fix has provided me with what seemed like going on 24 hours of comfort whereas it would normally be closer to 8ish, but bupe has never given me a full 24 hours of comfort, even though I've been stable on my dose for 3 months or so.

edit: Oh, 30ml is the general consensus reduction point for a switch to bupe I'm pretty sure.

double edit: If you are genuinely trying to quit opiates then DO NOT GO ON METHADONE IF IT CAN BE AVOIDED. It will make the process of cleanning up far more difficult.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I switched to bupe once I got down to either 35ml or 25ml of 'done. Can't recall which but there's a set upper limit you have to reach before switching to avoid precipitated w/d. Speak to your DSP or prescribing doctor if you're interested in making the switch. It is ultimately subjective but I can honestly say it was absolutely night and day for me. On meth I never felt there was light at the end of the tunnel and frankly didn't give much of a shit cos I was miserable. Within a couple days of switching to bupe my attitude changed 180 degrees. Actually went a bit too far the other way which kinda set up a bit of a rebound policy but such is life. I found bupe much easier to fit into having a life that didn't revolve around opies. I didn't take the time to actually fill out that chance at a life with enough solidity for it to stick completely but that was down to being overly keen to quit completely asap I believe. Personally I'd say make the switch cos you can always switch back if it doesn't suit and it could make a real difference. It's not for all but for those it works for it works an absolute treat.

Interesting... I told my key worker that I'd like to switch to bupe, (even though I'm perfectly content on 'done at the mo', just fancy a little change) and she said 'once you get down to 20ml/day then that could be an option'. Now I thought that was a little ambitious myself - surely the precipitated withdrawal from just 20ml 'done could be a nightmare - my girlfriend tried to switch to bupe at 25ml of 'done - she'd left it 24 hours after her last taste of green, and still suffered horrible withdrawals very soon after taking the bupe - I had to get her a bag to sort her out. So how long did you leave it before 'jumping ship'?