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Cosmos

Hehe. Maths is a language like any other. I don't understand machine code but I rather like what it can do. Same goes for physics. You can play around with the pretty things without understanding one word (or number, symbol, whatever) of the guts of it but you'll never be able to make it sing and never be able to truly appreciate what is involved unless you do.
 
And Fubar - i don't really think fully understanding the maths shcould be a barrier to a good explanation - some would say if it can't be explained in relatively simple terms it's probably not correct in some way (Einstein i think). That's not to say there shouldn't be hard maths involved, just that the maths can be explained in principle without having to calculate it in person. - like i understand the maths of fractals (which is actually quite simple) but i need a computer to calculate it and see a fractal.

Yes, but 'seeing' the fractal is just a matter of multitudinous iterations. 'understanding' the equations is on another level entirely.
 
Furthermore (after saying I was too pissed for this), music is fundamentally just numbers. However, there is more to a great piece of music than a mathematical equation. A computer can be 'taught' the maths of music, but could it create 'Stairway to Heaven'? I just think that maths isn't capable of showing the 'bigger picture' on its own.
 
That would totally depend on what it was being used for surely? Music created solely by computer isn't so great at this stage but wouldn't be surprised if it got rather a lot better over the years. That would be rather mixing languages though.

I don't think anybody ever just arbitrarily decided to use maths to explain nature - nature decided to use maths to express itself. We don't really get a say in the matter. It simply is that way. Why it is that way is a far more interesting question cos that suggests organisation of some sort. Implications of that extend beyond the scientific...
 
Well i think that the intuitive understanding beneath the maths is actually as important to understanding these things (even doing maths, the understanding is still an intuitive leap at heart) - einstein thought this his ideas up intuitively/internally first and added the maths later. The analogy with music is good - how many musical geniuses do their music mathematically and how many do it intuitively? (some music is done directly as maths but it's usually a bit boring (like serialism)).

And as for fractal maths (well the julia and mandelbrot set) the maths is fairly simple (just a simple equation repeated) and as you say it's feedback/iteration that creates the pattern. A complex thing for sure - and yet we can all understand negative and positive feedback intuitively i reckon
 
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Yeh, exactly! The 'understanding' bit should be intuitive. I just think that mathematicians don't accept that - if it can't be expressed as an equation then it can't be true. Because maths is a language in its own right, I feel that they look down on any concepts which are not expressed mathematically. Maybe its my own misunderstanding of maths which makes me think this way, but I think that reality cannot always conform to the abstract concept of numbers.
 
The map is not the territory and the menu is not the meal. Very true.

That said, the best people in these fields (though certainly by no means a majority) are well aware of the limitations of any scientific / mathematical model of the universe, but they understand that it's the best tool we've got for now when it comes to understanding how things work.

I'm sure that given time, the fact we now interpret 'reality' through numbers will be considered quaint or laughable, but for the moment it serves its purpose well.
 
^ Yeah, andromeda moving towards us is a local movement that overrides the expansion with relative speed or something. i think i remember reading that hubble first looked at andromeda and discovered a blue shift, then found the red shift everywhere else (might have remebred that wrong).

As far as the discovery announced yesterday, they were making way more of it on the news than it seemed to justify when i heard the details (like they said 'proof' of inflation or something which it seems far from at the moment). Also it's still after the big bang so says nothing about 'before' or anything. Gravity waves (if that's what they are) would be massive (har) though, as is being able (apparently) to look before the light started.

I just caught the end of something on Today this morning where they had Stephen Hawking talking about how it proves a bet he had with another physicist and he sounded quite upbeat about it; but they then talked to the geezer he had the bet with (Turok i think) and after hearing what he had to say, it all seemed less cut and dried (as science usually is i suppose).

i still have problems with some of the wish fulfilment they seem (to me as a layman) to have in big bang cosmology - like inflation itself (this possible proof notwithstanding, there's not, much explanatory power in it - it just happens somehow so the data fits); and dark energy and matter seem fishy too in that regard (and to some cosmologists too, not just idiots) - it just seems possible that something they haven't found out yet might be able to explain these things better somehow.

On a universal scale everythings moving away from each other, its just due to the amount of visable matter following there own paths and the randomness of such things that we're on a collision course with M31
 
The map is not the territory and the menu is not the meal. Very true.

Great quote and a thing that's always worth bearing in mind.

That said, the best people in these fields (though certainly by no means a majority) are well aware of the limitations of any scientific / mathematical model of the universe

Quite. Hence the term "mathematical model". I don't think anyone other than a few of the more exotically-minded cosmologists actually believe the maths is anything other than the language that best captures aspects of reality that no other language quite has the "words" for. There is one fella who crops up on lotsa pop science shows who actually does believe the universe is literally made of mathematics (Max Tegmark I think his name is) but that's a pretty extreme case and I really cannot begin to get my head around exactly what he means by that. He has a book out on the subject though so he has had a stab at explaining what he's meaning.
 
I know what you mean about that Tegmark fella. Really fascinating idea, but one that will drive you mental if you try to understand it without postgraduate level of understanding in maths / physics! Which I for one am nowhere near.
 
Acquired first two episodes earlier and just finished first one. Must say I'm relieved and impressed. Relieved that they've definitely not gone and ruined the memory which was always a bit of a risk, impressed cos it does look like it's gonna be rather good. Must look incredible on a proper telly, but swishy visuals are being used to very good effect. Looks like it could be what the original series was aiming for but technology fell short of hitting at the time. Carl Sagan himself made the difference last time but having the swanky visuals to paint the (very pretty) pictures definitely does add to things. Will crack on with the second one shortly cos first is more of an intro than an episode really. Rather good intro, mind.

Also, due to the fact the copy I acquired happens to include Spanish subtitles I found out the word 'guardarse' is a thing in Spain. This pleases me immensely for immensely childish reasons =D
 
If the correlation between maths and nature is of interest to anyone then I highly recommend watching a film called 'Faith In Chaos', it also goes by the name of 'Pie' but pie as in the mathematic formula and not as in the semi edible ecoli transportation units people eat at football games.
 
Yeh, exactly! The 'understanding' bit should be intuitive. I just think that mathematicians don't accept that - if it can't be expressed as an equation then it can't be true. Because maths is a language in its own right, I feel that they look down on any concepts which are not expressed mathematically. Maybe its my own misunderstanding of maths which makes me think this way, but I think that reality cannot always conform to the abstract concept of numbers.

Actually i think any mathematician would accept that it's the mysterious moment of understanding that actually forms the basis of their field. Maths is learned by a series of intuitive leaps - if you don't 'get' it before moving to the next bit it all just becomes confusing (which is the problem with school maths) - each step is actually simple as long as you've 'got' the previous steps beforehand. This is part of the basis for the belief in the platonic realm of maths (if we can 'get' maths like that, it must be some universal reality that we 'remember' somehow). I just think it's more like our mathematically able intuition/subconscious kicking in (all of our brains can do hardcore calculus when catching a ball for instance).

I tend to think (idly, as a layman) that there's no need to have a platonic maths realm - the many relationships of numbers to each other that we find are based on actual physical relationships, with no need of a 'perfect' realm or any abstact concept to exist (only we 'see' these relationships as maths anyway). As our maths has got more sophisticated it seems there's less of a mismatch (if any) between the messy world and the 'realm' of numbers; whether you're dealing with 'perfect' platonic solids, or some more messy type of numbers (like fractal maths, quantum mechanics or non-linear dynamics) is just a matter of how 'zoomed in' you are (or something).

Eg the way the maths of harmonics works (the one i know a small bit about) emerges directly from the messy physical as far as i can see (like the physical properties of the plucked string, the mass of the planet in orbit, or atomic orbitals (which are also harmonics)). The question from a platonist may be why does the harmony sounds nice to us (or the colour mix look nice), but rather than a reference to some other realm, it's really a more or less accurate perception of how well two waves physically fit inside each other and cause resonance (eg 200 Hz is an octave of 100 Hz because the wave fits inside it twice exactly (or the anvil is half as long as pythagoras would say)).

Having said that, i sort of want there to be platonic realms and often find myself gravitating towards platonists (eg roger penrose) - except when talking politics though...

And yeah, Pi is cool (both kinds)
 
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Finished watching second episode and am pleased that they do seem to have captured the feel of the original series rather well. The general sense of fascination and wonder at things across all scales of detail. Somewhat telling they went with evolution as the opener and felt the need to plead the case for it quite so strongly - is truly gobsmacking how low the acceptance rate for such an obvious thing is over there. Still managed to make it interesting all the same. Will be looking forward to future episodes :)
 
How are people getting on with this now that we are near the half way point? Do folk think that it lives up to Sagans original? Apart from being slightly americanised at points with a little unnecessarily bombastic score at times (composed by Back To The Futures Alan Silvestri for those that are interested in such things) I think its been a cracking series so far. Not sure if its better than Brian Cox's Wonders tho yet although with 13 episodes its already obviously more comprhensive
 
Funnily enough I was thinking of bumping this thread myself after watching the latest one yesterday. Great minds and all that :)

I also agree with pretty much all you say. This is getting uncanny :sus:

Was trying to put my finger on exactly what the small annoyance I have had with it is. 'Americanisation' is probably not quite right given both series are American but I know what you mean by it and that has been what irks me. A certain cheese-factor, slightly syrupy but can't quite put my finger on what it is specifically. Think it's the general feel. Although the bit in this latest episode when he did the 'Breathe with me' thing raised an eyebrow. It does seem to be aimed more at children than anybody who has an interest in anything. The original was a bit like that but did feel more universal somehow. I feel I'm being slightly patronised at times with the new one.

That really is nit-picking though cos I've really enjoyed every episode. It does have the Cosmossy feel to it. The way it doesn't necessarily focus on one thing exclusively but ties together all kinds of information and interesting stuff around a general theme. Despite the odd clunky moment I think this week's one was one of the best so far - last week was good too. I think they overplayed the 'cellular machinery' metaphor a bit though. Yes it is a useful analogy but those animations made it look like the inside of a cell is some kinda psychedelic steampunk wonderland. Stretched it a bit for me - I much prefer the approach taken by Our Secret Universe - The Hidden Life of a Cell (well worth a watch - doubly so if on psyches cos it's really very pretty as well as being interesting and informative (oh, and don't let the 'Intelligent Design' label put you off - it has nothing to do with Creationism)).

The irritations I've mentioned really are very minor though - overall it's been excellent and looking forward to the rest of 'em.
 
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