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Addiction-Do U agree with this vid?

B

belfort

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Joined
Nov 2, 2005
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp4pEP3X_NY

he brings up many good points but i disagree with him about addiction being so black and white..he acts as if every single addict out there was traumatized or abused severely growing up, thus they lack the proper dopamine levels so they seek out chemical enhancement..im not sure if im the only addict on this board that was never abused growing up, i grew up in a loving household as did many of my friends that were also addicts..why many of us became addicts i dont know...i dont think anyone does..
 
Listened to the first ten minutes or so. I know what type of point(s) this guy is trying to make. I've heard similar pitches in rehab. And I do think that it is cutting-edge and very scientific (though some of what he says isn't absolute fact), and if an understanding of this stuff can help a person figure out why s/he feels compelled to use, then I think it's a great resource for staying clean. I just know that I can listen to lectures like this all day, have listened to them in fact, and then go out and use right after. This way of analysing addiction may interest me intellectually, but it doesn't do much for helping me stay clean. In fact, I have almost a Pavlovian response to wanting to get high after hearing these types of points. The only thing that I can do and actually lower my cravings is to dip into my psychedelic past, meditate, read about tantra and that whole approach. If I get in touch with the universe and calm myself, I can feel "alive" and sufficiently complete. Too medical of an approach can confuse me and cause my mind to think too much, and then I feel overwhelmed, not smart enough, and so on. Not feeling good enough is the first domino in all of my relapses.

I'm pretty sure that I am going to agree with him on the legal/political/sociological issues, though.
 
Alright, listened to it all.

This isn't the best way to attack the drug war, I don't think. This guy brings up a few examples of people with bad childhoods to make his points via appeals to our emotions. One could, though, find a handful of addicts with wonderful childhoods and paint us a picture about these people being self-indulgent and immoral, and people could be angered up enough to want these people given "reality checks" and whatnot. Addiction doesn't discriminate. And this means that it doesn't discriminate against people who didn't have traumatic childhoods. Obviously a lot of people do self-medicate the traumas of youth, but the delivery of this guy could make an addict who didn't go through any trauma feel like s/he isn't an appropriate addict.

As well, a proponent of the war could just make the point that efforts need to be made to snuff out childhood trauma, so this will in turn lead to less self-medication by adults. I can almost hear it now...."a lot of kids are traumatised because their parents are addicts. We need to fight those drugs!!"

I believe that getting high and feeling more full or more complete within this confusing universe is an essential part of human life. This has been going on for millennia. Why it goes on, what the precise mechanisms behind addiction are, I don't think we know yet. We have theories, but we don't really know. But I think that criminalising something that appears to be part of human nature is a violation of human rights. That's the real issue with the drug war - that it strips humans of their freedoms (over their own bodies and minds). It's engineered so that people think it is in their best interests to give up their basic freedoms for their own safety, when really they are just making it that much easier for the powers that be to control them. I think that the addictions of power and money, which fuel the drug war from the other side, should be analysed in a similar way. Politicians, cops, leaders, etc, they try and control others and take their resources because they are trying to feel more complete, more secure, etc. Drugs (well, the bad ones) serve a dual function of making people physically, spiritually and mentally weak, and also making lots of potential money flowing in the right directions. So the real abuse isn't just some kid's parents beating him or whatever, but it's a centralised effort to subdue, control and weaken a population while at the same time profiting off of it. It's an abuse of human beings and human rights from the most powerful people in the world. He should focus on this more.
 
Great thread B..

I'm just going to listen and share my views as i go..

IMO..

Once we get to the self soothing I think he may be off a bit.. I think the reason babies cry is that they are not able to sustain their own needs so this is the way they communicate and promote their needs to the people who need to provide for them.

Im not sure that the brain shutting down receptors is accurate as far as why we get a crash..

I love the dopamine comments about the mice and distance from food source.. I love this because it fits in with how influential and creative addicts are.. yeah we are a problem sometimes but we most likely came up with and promoted so much of societal advancement

Not sure if a agree with the less dopamine receptors idea.. I would think we have much more than others.. but I will need to look at studies to investigate the truth.

I think he is focussing to much on the neurochemistry and failing to state that the way a person genetically prone to and often chooses to continue to think determines this neurochemistry.. Oh and I just gave myself credit for this and I feal good.

I also have a problem with the early childhood exposure ideas as where then is the basis for the identical twins of addicts studies that show that a person has like a 67% chance of becoming an addict even when separated at birth having one addict parent and almost a 90% chance of being an addict with two addict parents... these are not exact figures but represent a decent approximation upon things that I have read but no longer remember the exact figures. The reason these studies are so significant as they vary all the circumstances of the peoples lives thus providing a way for us to try and see what is inherent and what is created by the environment the person is in. I do love the reference to the developing brain.. if we were born with a fully developed brain it would be really easy to see how much of a person's thinking is actually transferred from generation to generation.. I personally think it would be amazing how much is transferred. I want to see a study done that compares the rates of addiction for offspring born while a parent is in active addiction compared to when parents are in recovery.. my thoughts are that the incidence of addiction in the children of parents who are in recovery will drop significantly. This would then indicate that the current thinking of the parent is somehow transferred genetically.


I like the idea of addict needing and craving external ways to balance their system and the idea of the crash making things so much worse. I think its important here to also think about tolerance.. a brain will try and get back to it homeostasis this will involve cutting back the "positive" effects of the drugs and ramping up the "negative" effects addressed by the drugs. So it fucks us in the end.


I think in a further exploration of this he needs to make more clear the concept of a carrot and stick.. normal people always think we use to get high.. but the way the mind works is through a carrot and stick. this is th reason we still use when all the pleasure is gone.. to get away from the stick..

carrot-and-stick.gif


Even though I disagree with his cause of addiction i certainly agree whit hi idea about locking people who are looking to a solution for their unhappiness up and that by doing this we make them infinitely more miserable and increase the problem!!!!

I had a great childhood and cannot remember anything really traumatic I am a n addict.. can something like this make a person seek drugs undoubtedly.. is it the all powerful underlying cause no.

So much of what he attributing to drugs seems to me to be the result of the war on drugs.

I will finish this in a bit but that is my take up till 15.00 m

I guess I am just focussing on the difference in opinion at this point.. So my views may seem a little negative until I finish this.
 
Way too simplistic. To say that all female addicts were raped or sexually abused based on Dr. Gabor's population in urban Vancouver is a real stretch. While I am sure that childhood abuse is one factor that makes a person vulnerable to addiction, it is hardly true for everyone.

Mothers have been blamed forever for everything from addiction to schizophrenia to autism to....you name it, we are responsible! As a mother of a son that suffered from addiction as well as extreme mental states (anxiety, depression, mania) I can manufacture reel after reel of guilt myself. Thanks to people like this guy, I can always find someone to validate this useless self-hatred. The truth is that like any parent, I made mistakes. So did my parents. None of my mistakes nor those my parents made come anywhere near abuse. My siblings and I were loved and accepted, my sons were loved and accepted. My brother has grappled with addiction his whole adult life and my son lost his life because of his. My sister and I have used drugs moderately in our lives as does my older son with no experience with addiction. Bad parenting was hardly the issue here. So what was? I will be trying to figure this out until the day I die but I prefer to listen to people that don't try to pin it all down in such black and white terms.

This guy has a lot of good points to make but they get totally lost in his drive to force every single person's story into his theory. I want him to make a follow up video where he interviews people that were not abused or neglected as infants or children. One of the guilt trips my own son used against himself was this: "I come from loving, supportive parents, an intact family, I have what I need to be comfortable and yet I need more. Why?" He did not get the chance to keep exploring this question and that breaks my heart because he was a very deep thinker, a great researcher and someone that could be brutally honest with himself as well as with us. Addiction research is fascinating in a way because there are so many different factors to consider. Understanding the physical science of what actually occurs in the brain is great but just blindly grabbing onto the most obvious trauma cases (abuse of infants and children) as the cause of the physical brain differences and body chemistry differences is very limiting.

One-size-fits-all-theories are generally driven by the theorist's need to bring order to chaos. Unfortunately, whatever usefulness might come out of the theory gets lost in all the holes more nuanced thinkers are going to find in it. I don't mean to negate everything he says, but he isn't doing justice to the subject though his heart is in the right place.
 
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Yeah... I know a lot of people who had spectacular child hoods, Picture perfect family and everything - yet still became addicted to drugs.


I really would like to know why I instantly became addicted to heroin when trying it - when what, only 20something% of people who try it become addicted? I would like to know what made me think, feel, and view the world in such a fucked up way that I got hook on pseudo suicide when the majority of people who try heroin don't abuse it nor become addicted. The biggest point this guy did make was that it's not the drug, it's the person/brain - but it's also not a conscious choice and nor is it because of abuse. So some good points made but better explanations needed.
 
I think that especially with heroin, you get (psychologically) addicted to the chase and the ritual as much as you do (physically) to the drug. Most people aren't scamming money for it and chasing it down in risky neighbourhoods at the beginning. They are being handed a line by another kid in the suburbs, doing it with a rolled up bill as instructed, and so on. The drug feels good, but you're not going through all of the madness that you hate to love before each dose...yet. I think that after people really figure out how to obtain it on their own, how to do it in a way that delivers the best reward, and so on, once all of that is down, the physical battle starts to creep in as the psychological pulls the use forward. I think that what tips it from a recreational activity, as it all was when we first started, to a daily physical addiction is us getting addicted to everything that surrounds the drug as well. The majority of people who try it and don't get addicted to it didn't get that psychological rush from scoring and preparing heroin that we started getting after a few times, which in turn made us keep doing it daily until it got physical. And once it is physical, game over!

I didn't get roped into heroin because I thought the world was a dark place or that my past needed medicating. I got roped in because after trying it out of curiosity, I got psychologically addicted to obtaining it. It wasn't until the heroin ruined my life that I started using to deal with a painful world.


And to generalise, none of my drug use was to self-medicate against pain at first. It was just basic curiosity and pleasure-seeking. The self-medicating was largely was in reaction to the problems caused by drugs and drugs being illegal and looked down upon. I mean, sure, it tempered my anxiety and made me more comfortable in my own skin, but I think that the initial pull to drugs was more driven by curiosity to feel something beyond myself, not to fix something within my self. If that makes sense.
 
herbavore said:
Way too simplistic. To say that all female addicts were raped or sexually abused based on Dr. Gabor's population in urban Vancouver is a real stretch. While I am sure that childhood abuse is one factor that makes a person vulnerable to addiction, it is hardly true for everyone.

Mothers have been blamed forever for everything from addiction to schizophrenia to autism to....you name it, we are responsible! As a mother of a son that suffered from addiction as well as extreme mental states (anxiety, depression, mania) I can manufacture reel after reel of guilt myself. Thanks to people like this guy, I can always find someone to validate this useless self-hatred. The truth is that like any parent, I made mistakes. So did my parents. None of my mistakes nor those my parents made come anywhere near abuse. My siblings and I were loved and accepted, my sons were loved and accepted. My brother has grappled with addiction his whole adult life and my son lost his life because of his. My sister and I have used drugs moderately in our lives as does my older son with no experience with addiction. Bad parenting was hardly the issue here. So what was? I will be trying to figure this out until the day I die but I prefer to listen to people that don't try to pin it all down in such black and white terms.

This guy has a lot of good points to make but they get totally lost in his drive to force every single person's story into his theory. I want him to make a follow up video where he interviews people that were not abused or neglected as infants or children. One of the guilt trips my own son used against himself was this: "I come from loving, supportive parents, an intact family, I have what I need to be comfortable and yet I need more. Why?" He did not get the chance to keep exploring this question and that breaks my heart because he was a very deep thinker, a great researcher and someone that could be brutally honest with himself as well as with us. Addiction research is fascinating in a way because there are so many different factors to consider. Understanding the physical science of what actually occurs in the brain is great but just blindly grabbing onto the most obvious trauma cases (abuse of infants and children) as the cause of the physical brain differences and body chemistry differences is very limiting.

One-size-fits-all-theories are generally driven by the theorist's need to bring order to chaos. Unfortunately, whatever usefulness might come out of the theory gets lost in all the holes more nuanced thinkers are going to find in it. I don't mean to negate everything he says, but he isn't doing justice to the subject though his heart is in the right place.
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i agree completely, there is definitely something to be said about many addicts that live normal lives who just incomplete..this isnt due to not being held enough as a toddler or because they were chained to a wall as a youth, its just something in their personality that makes them constantly seek out something bigger and better..way too many addicts(that werent abused) i have talked to simply talk about when they first discovered drugs, its like a switch gets turned on and they are off to the races..the drugs make them feel normal or better or maybe a bit of both as i still have a very hard time finding out what this 'normal' is that people talk about, is there such a thing?i mean, how does a normal person feel like in terms of enjoyment, anxiety and depression?

in my experience, i think boredom or inability to tolerate boredom is what caused my addiction..now, many doctors would label me as adhd or depressed but the root of my drug use stems from boredom, needing something more..why certain people seem to need more and why others dont, who knows?this is why many other non drug users seek out thrills such as base-jumping or other crazy feats..
 
I was thinking today and I hit upon an interesting concept. I dont think its a disease any longer. What if it instead a very successful way of approaching life. If you look at how we think and take away the negative we feal and simply examine it on terms of the success it promotes in achieving what we have needed to do to survive and reproduce I think it will show that these "character flaws" may infact be really successful in terms of life when looked at on this level.

What if its just one of the successful thought patterns which have been promoted through successful evolution but has now run into a significant hurdle with the widespread availability of substances that we attempt to take to quiet the feelings that have made us successful in the past.
 
I don't think of addiction as a disease, either. Regardless of whether it actually is or is not a disease, I do think that one can recover better if thinking that it is NOT a disease. Now I'm not saying that it should be viewed as a moral shortcoming or whatever. But I think it's more like a part of human nature that you just learn to control (and by control I don't necessarily mean controlled use). All of the clinical stuff about the "disease" depresses me like crazy. It's just too much negative connotation.

I think it's best look at as choices that one learns from to become stronger. A lot of cultures around the world have made their young go through painful rituals to gain strength. I think it can be seen kind of similarly. Everyone goes through tough times in their teens and twenties (or older). Not just drugs, but sometimes cyclical bad relationships, debt, venereal disease...whatever it is, but typically the more you overcome, the stronger you are. So yes, it brings out the animal instincts of survival and self-preservation, but while locked in the addiction and when conquering it. And I've always been a huge proponent of a connection to your own human/animal nature on this planet as an essential part of spiritual recovery. I think that certain drugs connect people to their human nature better, which make them stronger animals that can better evolve. So it would make sense that a desire to take certain drugs to seek experience that toughen one up would be programmed into us.
 
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caseface99 said:
Yeah... I know a lot of people who had spectacular child hoods, Picture perfect family and everything - yet still became addicted to drugs.


I really would like to know why I instantly became addicted to heroin when trying it - when what, only 20something% of people who try it become addicted? I would like to know what made me think, feel, and view the world in such a fucked up way that I got hook on pseudo suicide when the majority of people who try heroin don't abuse it nor become addicted. The biggest point this guy did make was that it's not the drug, it's the person/brain - but it's also not a conscious choice and nor is it because of abuse. So some good points made but better explanations needed.
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yep, same here...the first time i took an opiod, it was like my brain switched on in a different way, i really enjoyed the feeling..i remember at the time i wasnt miserable or sad i just took it because many of my friends were taking it so curiosity caught me..whats strange is ive always heard that addiction is partly genetic but ALL of my immediate family members have been prescribed opiates at one point in their lives and they HATED the feeling..opiods made them irritable, lethargic, just felt crummy whereas with me, i felt the opposite..why that is i have to attribute to my brain chemistry, but why am i the opposite of my immediate family?it doesnt add up..
 
matt<3ketamine said:
this is probably my favourite video on opiate addiction, describes it very realistically imo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9huWlXFA1s

its helped some of my family understand my usage and how i ended up there
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watched the vid, not so sure i agree here..when i first tried heroin, even after years of using nubain and oxy, i felt a very powerful euphoria..it didnt just simply feel 'nice', it was a powerful high..the feeling the man in the video described is way i felt after skin-popping nubain, but iv heroin, much different ..
 
I don't really know about it either. There are 3 primal instincts in a human at birth- water, food, sex. Once a drug is introduced into the brain under the right environmental/ mental circumstances, those 3 basic instincts are shrunk to a microscopic level and a new instinct is born- intoxication from your doc. Even sober, my thoughts are still on heroin everyday- I still love it, I still would trade ANYTHING for a steady lifetime supply without consequence. But we live in a world where intoxication from substances besides ethanol is frowned upon, and so I have to ignore it the best I can. I still have no appetite (I bodybuild- very unusual for me) and little sex drive after such a long sober time- my instincts are telling me to get heroin daily.... I think it's a rewiring of the brain in the deepest way imaginable.
 
bdomihizayka said:
I don't really know about it either. There are 3 primal instincts in a human at birth- water, food, sex. Once a drug is introduced into the brain under the right environmental/ mental circumstances, those 3 basic instincts are shrunk to a microscopic level and a new instinct is born- intoxication from your doc. Even sober, my thoughts are still on heroin everyday- I still love it, I still would trade ANYTHING for a steady lifetime supply without consequence. But we live in a world where intoxication from substances besides ethanol is frowned upon, and so I have to ignore it the best I can. I still have no appetite (I bodybuild- very unusual for me) and little sex drive after such a long sober time- my instincts are telling me to get heroin daily.... I think it's a rewiring of the brain in the deepest way imaginable.
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i agree and i have noticed that even with long amounts of 'clean time' my brain still hardwired for bursts of euphoria, working out or certain types of competitive sports are the only things that provide this..i didnt and still dont see the purpose in doing things that other people do, like casual socializing, eating out, just everyday things..my mind is still geared towards the large bursts of 'feel good' chemicals that i used to get from drugs..yep, unfortunately im not really driven at all to have or seek out sex..im almost indifferent to many things in life that seem to really motivate others..i think its due to drugs, hard to say for sure though..im starting to doubt my brain will ever go back to 'normal...that is, if i was ever normal in the first place...
 
neversickanymore said:
I think he is focussing to much on the neurochemistry and failing to state that the way a person genetically prone to and often chooses to continue to think determines this neurochemistry.. Oh and I just gave myself credit for this and I feal good.
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I can give myself a tangible, powerful rush by simply thinking of certain things...like a full syringe against a vein. I concur with your observation.
 
^^ I've seen a DOCTOR make the argument: "saying you can be genetically predisposed to addiction is stupid. If you great grand father is a doctor, your grandfather, your father all doctors... If you come from a long line of doctors, does that make you genetically predisposed to becoming a doctor??"

I think this logic is backwards and flawed, just thought I would share.
 
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