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You guys thoughts on a piece of addiction?

neversickanymore

neversickanymore

Moderator: DS
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babysitting the argument in my head
In plodding through the complex topic of addiction I think I have finally been able to see that addiction isn't about the drugs in the end. It a psycological condition that its created. I have realized that a person can in fact control their intake of drugs and moderate the amount of drugs they take. This may not be possible for many at all to do. But it can infact be done. But what I have also come to see is that this does not mean that they are not suffering from addiction. A person may in fact be able to control their drug use or be able not to take drugs at all, but if they don't address the psychological issues of the addiction then they will be miserable from it.

I always kinda shrugged at the idea of a "dry drunk" and thought it had its roots in self promotion of the fellowships. But as I think I have been able to see clearly where people can clean themselves up and live really healthy lives, getting exercise, meditation, sleep, with no use for a long time, and very reasonable use for a long time. But if a person doesn't address the thinking side of the addiction then they will almost as miserable as if they hadn't stopped using.

So I guess I would just like to hear peoples opinions on this. I mean is addiction the inability to control the intake of a substance or is it something much more elusive and have its real roots in our thought process and these damaged thought processes and they way they make us percieve the world, the way they make us feel, and the way they make us act what addiction really is.. and then the desire to use the drugs because of these incorrect processes, just a symptom of whats really going on?
 
I believe the substances to simply be a terrible solution to an even worse problem. The roots lie in the mind. The issues exist before a drug is ever even taken, at least subtly though in some cases strongly. The person notices that when they use drugs they are able to get rid of many of the uncomfortable thoughts and feelings that have plagued them their entire lives. Even if you don't consciously notice the drugs as a method of escape, I believe that's what it is. Hence why addiction can form around anything, way beyond substances. Behaviors can be just as addictive and act as just as much of an escape for some people.

Abusing drugs naturally ends up exasterbating the problems that already existed and if/when stopping the drug becomes possible the individual is left with problems much worse than originally present.

And as such, simply controlling your using and not addressing the psychological issues will in fact lead a true "addict" to become miserable. More then that i believe stopping using all together and not addressing the psych issues will often leave the individual just as miserable. Treating the underlying problem(s) is what I believe to be most successful in treating addictions. I also believe that relapse on problem drugs can easily lead to a relapse in ways of thinking.
 
^I am with you on this one, I was in denial before that I had control over my drug use but I was dead wrong. I also realized later on that I have an addictive personality and I go over the line.

Drugs are very addicting although I have known some people who did not get hooked, they still crave for it but that fear of getting hooked and getting miserable is stopping them from taking more. Addressing the issue psychologically is definitely a good way to get to the bottom of the problem of addiction and watching behavioral patterns and seeking help are some of the important ways to deal and possibly eliminate addiction.
 
neversickanymore said:
In plodding through the complex topic of addiction I think I have finally been able to see that addiction isn't about the drugs in the end. It a psycological condition that its created. I have realized that a person can in fact control their intake of drugs and moderate the amount of drugs they take. This may not be possible for many at all to do. But it can infact be done. But what I have also come to see is that this does not mean that they are not suffering from addiction. A person may in fact be able to control their drug use or be able not to take drugs at all, but if they don't address the psychological issues of the addiction then they will be miserable from it.
Click to expand...

Yes! I can control.. but I am miserable and it is extremely difficult. We can do anything through willpower. But is it worth it? Fuck no. Over time it will wear on us and drive us insane. Eventually it will get out of hand again and again. I learned this the hard way in my years of drinking. In the early days I would go weeks without blacking out and only drinking 7 or 8 beers, but it never lasted. I always wanted more. And every now and then I gave in.

neversickanymore said:
I always kinda shrugged at the idea of a "dry drunk" and thought it had its roots in self promotion of the fellowships. But as I think I have been able to see clearly where people can clean themselves up and live really healthy lives, getting exercise, meditation, sleep, with no use for a long time, and very reasonable use for a long time. But if a person doesn't address the thinking side of the addiction then they will almost as miserable as if they hadn't stopped using.
Click to expand...

I think the dry drunk makes sense. I think a recovery is a shift in thinking. If you still "want" to use, then your recovery hasn't started. You won't feel better until that want is gone and all that remains is the craving.

neversickanymore said:
So I guess I would just like to hear peoples opinions on this. I mean is addiction the inability to control the intake of a substance or is it something much more elusive and have its real roots in our thought process and these damaged thought processes and they way they make us percieve the world, the way they make us feel, and the way they make us act what addiction really is.. and then the desire to use the drugs because of these incorrect processes, just a symptom of whats really going on?
Click to expand...

For me.. getting sober required me to learn how to deal with my emotions. I think depression and anxiety led to my problems, and rather than cover them up with alcohol like I used to I was forced to meet them head on. My way of dealing with every single emotion whether it be happy, excited, sad, etc. was to drink.
 
I don't know, but whatever it is, seeing that actor go 23 years sober and then die with a needle in his arm made me realize that you can never really say that you have got it beat.

I agree about emotions playing a factor, but I can't help but think this is kind of a trick of the mind.

Bottom line is, that I am just a fiend, no two ways about it, and if I am going to have any peaceful sobriety time it is going to be by splitting in two and having the fiend get his own room.
 
^^ Ditto space, Philip Seymour Hoffman's death is just a grim reminder that you can not ever "recover" - There is no finish line, no end. You can be in recovery, or in active addiction. But no matter how long you stay clean you are never fully out of the water.
 
I have also reached the point where I don't subscribe to the disease model of addiction.
I'll accept "mental disorder," or even "mental illness," but the agent of free will takes it out of the disease category for me.
This is actually a good thing, because it empowers an individual to employ various techniques and therapeutic methods to extricate themselves by their own bootstraps.

Philip the actor is a statistic; IMO there is no carved in stone reason why an individual has to submit to being a statistic just because someone else did.
We are all unique individuals and any one of us can choose to fall into the category of success if we decide that is where we are going to be.
 
I think I have reached the point were I am looking at the drug use as an almost inevitable symptom of the "disease, mental illness, or mental disorder" its just something that we seek for relief from a pattern of thought or whatever that makes us so miserable... IMO drugs are a just an attempt at relief, that ends up failing because of tolerance and ends up killing because of tolerance.. we need to change the way we were born thinking?
 
^^ They do say symptom at meetings, but I'm totally with NSA on this one. I am entirely convinced it's a failed solution to a problem we have had since birth. A problem of how our minds work. Everyone I meet at NA and AA has similar memories of how they always felt and thought from the time they were little kids. Not fitting in, not feeling they were "a part of" whether with friends, family, whatever group of people. Feeling detached, always uncomfortable. Not being comfortable in your own body. Almost always feelings of inadequacy in some way shape or form. Along with screwed up thinking patterns leading to unhealthy behavioral patterns, almost always a very addictive personality in general from a very young age. I'm quite certain that my addictions have nothing to do with my environment. It's not how I was raised, It's how I was born.

The differences in upbringing and childhood environment between people I have talked to in recovery are drastic and numerous. Yet people with absolutely nothing in common from their childhoods, on the surface level, still share extreme similarities in thoughts and feelings their entire lives. It is a psychological condition. It may or may not have physiological causes or factors, if it does then it has not yet been discovered but somehow, some way, I believe this is something I was born with. The only addicts I have EVER spoken to who didn't have similar thoughts and feelings are addicts who "accidentally" became addicted to drugs, such as people who got overprescribed pain meds after a car accident but otherwise never had any addictions. Coincidentally, these are also the only type of addicts I have seen go back to drinking or smoking pot socially without problems.

Too sum it up, the way we think and feel is really fucked up and once we discover substances or risk taking behaviors that give us temporary relief from our fucked up minds, we grab onto it, because without addressing the issues we are miserable.


I believe people are correct in saying that staying sober can be accomplished on will power alone. However, if you are a true addict then this method will without a doubt make you miserable, just like you always were. Staying sober on will power alone without addressing the underlying issues is thought to be impossible by some groups because in most cases, eventually the person becomes so miserable they don't give a fuck anymore and relapse. Because if you think about it, before using drugs you were already miserable in some way - and after using and experiencing that lack of pain, that lack of anything but temporary bliss while high, when you go back to being sober you will always know what you are missing. You will always know the option is there, and you will have reinforced the negative thoughts and emotions and likely caused even more damage through drugs and the actions you took while addicted to them.

This is why we need to do things everyday to address the way we think and feel, and deal with it in a healthy manner for the rest of our lives. Because the ONLY other options are being miserable, or suicide (either a swift and deliberate suicide, or a slow painful one using drugs, doesn't matter which.) If anybody else see's a 4th option, I'm all ears. But I don't see one...
 
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caseface99 said:
^^ They do say symptom at meetings, but I'm totally with NSA on this one. I am entirely convinced it's a failed solution to a problem we have had since birth. A problem of how our minds work. Everyone I meet at NA and AA has similar memories of how they always felt and thought from the time they were little kids. Not fitting in, not feeling they were "a part of" whether with friends, family, whatever group of people. Feeling detached, always uncomfortable. Not being comfortable in your own body. Almost always feelings of inadequacy in some way shape or form. Along with screwed up thinking patterns leading to unhealthy behavioral patterns, almost always a very addictive personality in general from a very young age. I'm quite certain that my addictions have nothing to do with my environment. It's not how I was raised, It's how I was born.

The differences in upbringing and childhood environment between people I have talked to in recovery are drastic and numerous. Yet people with absolutely nothing in common from their childhoods, on the surface level, still share extreme similarities in thoughts and feelings their entire lives. It is a psychological condition. It may or may not have physiological causes or factors, if it does then it has not yet been discovered but somehow, some way, I believe this is something I was born with. The only addicts I have EVER spoken to who didn't have similar thoughts and feelings are addicts who "accidentally" became addicted to drugs, such as people who got overprescribed pain meds after a car accident but otherwise never had any addictions. Coincidentally, these are also the only type of addicts I have seen go back to drinking or smoking pot socially without problems.

Too sum it up, the way we think and feel is really fucked up and once we discover substances or risk taking behaviors that give us temporary relief from our fucked up minds, we grab onto it, because without addressing the issues we are miserable.


I believe people are correct in saying that staying sober can be accomplished on will power alone. However, if you are a true addict then this method will without a doubt make you miserable, just like you always were. Staying sober on will power alone without addressing the underlying issues is thought to be impossible by some groups because in most cases, eventually the person becomes so miserable they don't give a fuck anymore and relapse. Because if you think about it, before using drugs you were already miserable in some way - and after using and experiencing that lack of pain, that lack of anything but temporary bliss while high, when you go back to being sober you will always know what you are missing. You will always know the option is there, and you will have reinforced the negative thoughts and emotions and likely caused even more damage through drugs and the actions you took while addicted to them.

This is why we need to do things everyday to address the way we think and feel, and deal with it in a healthy manner for the rest of our lives. Because the ONLY other options are being miserable, or suicide (either a swift and deliberate suicide, or a slow painful one using drugs, doesn't matter which.) If anybody else see's a 4th option, I'm all ears. But I don't see one...
Click to expand...

Completely true as far as I'm concerned. I have never felt apart of things, always felt "on the outside looking in" even though my childhood was ok, always got attached/obsessed with things. In fact when I was sitting by people in school I'd try to sit as close to them as possible because I wasn't close enough (I was only a child but I think it's symbolic), every group I belong to I end up feeling that I'm not a part of n am as I said "on the outside looking in" I don't do things in moderating. I spend 10 years off n on addicted to the Internet, sleeping a few hours, hardly eating (people actually don't take it seriously when I talk about that because it wasn't "drugs"), I went through a phase of drinking at least two litres of Pepsi mas per day thinking I could never get enough of it. How I ever liked fizzy pop I don't know, almost got addicted to exercise, spent five weeks doing an intense exercise programmed called INSANITY with sciatica, can't have chocolates in the house I have to eat them all and have had god knows how many obsessions (which I'm now starting to think were addictions n was a reason I was in denial over the codeine for so long because it was similar to all the "obsessions")... so yea a lot of those points make sense to me...

Too sum it up, the way we think and feel is really fucked up and once we discover substances or risk taking behaviors that give us temporary relief from our fucked up minds, we grab onto it, because without addressing the issues we are miserable.
Click to expand...
LOL... Good summary. There needs to be a lot more work done than just looking at the addiction.
 
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I believe that underlying both addictions and the psychological vulnerabilities that underlie those addictions (drug or other) is at root a spiritual crisis. By spiritual, I am not referring to any religious concepts of either gods or higher powers and certainly not to the outdated myths that our species still seems to need to hold onto. What I mean is that there is a deep existential emptiness that is so profound that it becomes terrifying to the person experiencing it. That overwhelming terror in turn leads to the need to run, or the need to cover up or the need to be distracted or numbed. The Buddhist concept of the Hungry Ghost that stuffs everything possible into the hungry hole within but only ends up creating more desire is an apt metaphor for what I am trying to say. What is that hole?

When I was young I took judo for many years. What hooked me in was the simple concept of turning to face the enemy and using his own force coming at me to redirect it back at him. In this way a very small person like me could actually defend myself from someone much larger. Because I love metaphors, this became much more than just a self-defense teacher. It became a spiritual practice. When we turn to face our deepest fears, it is a spiritual act. Like Rumi said, "invite them in". It feels counterintuitive. We are taught not to "dwell" on the negative emotions. But when they (anxiety and fear) were ruling my existence and running from them or pretending they did not exist or trying to simply sleep through my life in an attempt to avoid them only increased the power they had over me, I tried to see things from a different angle.

Getting to the feelings underneath the thoughts we superimpose on them is profoundly life-changing. Being afraid of the power of our own emotions is something that a consumer culture depends on so there is little outside support. Connecting with your deepest fears, accepting them as a part of being human, allows you to witness your own strength as well. Will-power is certainly a useful strength but self-acceptance and compassion for every facet of being human is a connection to life. That connection is what I think shrinks the hole inside to insignificant proportions. Loneliness, existential and otherwise, does not have to be a negative. Making peace with our brief and solitary (on many levels) existence is to find an ease with life. I experience much more joy, more calm, more happiness when I consciously make peace with loneliness and fear and anger.

Rumi's poem:

The Guest House

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice.
meet them at the door laughing and invite them in.

Be grateful for whatever comes.
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
 
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