The Other Side of the Coin: Alternate Views on Difficult Subjects [Triggering]

eldesperado

Bluelighter
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{Mod Disclaimer: This thread is being opened up to discuss alternate views on somewhat difficult subjects. It is not limited to suicide only. Potential triggering posts will be allowed.

Please take into account that these are individual views and personal attacks will not be tolerated}

Suicide is not inherently wrong, immoral, or the coward's way out. One can go out gracefully without feeling desperate or in the throes of sadness. We should still strive to help those who are very emotional, on the edge, in a bad place, etc. We should even still try to help those who have decided, after much careful thought, to gracefully die (because life will always be worth more ultimately in a grander sense)...but in a more rational way, without the same appeals to emotion which, in the mind of the calm suicide, have no effect (e.g. "you'll hurt those around you, suicide is never the answer, this feeling will pass, you have so much more to live for, things always improve, let me tell you my story of overcoming etc etc)... Convincing this type of suicide to stay is much more difficult... A good quote everyone on this thread should read:

Suicide, condemned by most moralities with social and religious foundations, has in fact been permitted by two doctrines whose norms of life are not far from those indicated for the differentiated man in the present epoch: Stoicism and Buddhism. One can refer to the ideas of Seneca regarding Stoicism, recalling above all the general backgrounds of its vision of life. I have already said that for Seneca the true man would be above the gods themselves, because they, by their very nature, do not know adversity and misfortune, whereas he is exposed to them, but has the power to triumph over them. Moreover, Seneca sees the beings that are most harshly tested as the worthiest, recalling this analogy: in war it is the most capable, sure and qualified persons that leaders entrust with the most exposed positions and the hardest tasks. Usually it is this virile and agonistic conception that applies when suicide is condemned and stigmatized as cowardice and desertion. (There is a saying attributed by Cicero to the Pythagoreans: "To leave the place that one is assigned in life is not permitted without an order from the leader, who is God") Instead Seneca reaches the opposite conclusion, and put the justification of suicide directly into the mouth of the divinity (De Providentia,. 6.7-9). He makes the divinity say that he has given the superior man, the sage, not only a force stronger than any contingency, and something more than being exempt from evils, namely the power to triumph over them interiorly; but has also ensured that no one can hold him back against his will: the path to "exit" is open to him - patet exitus. "Wherever you do not want to fight, it is always possible to retreat. You have been given nothing easier than death."


Given the presuppositions mentioned earlier with regard to the general vision of life, there is no doubt that Seneca did not intend this decision to refer to cases in which death is sought because a given situation appears unbearable: especially then, one could not permit oneself the act. Here too it is necessary to add what is equally valid for all those who are driven to cut their life short due to emotional and impassioned motives, because this would be equivalent to recognizing one's own passivity and impotence toward the irrational part of one's soul. The same is even true for cases in which social motives intervene. Both the ideal Stoic type and the differentiated man do not permit those motives to intimately touch them, as their dignity were injured by what binds them to social life. They would never be driven to put an end to their own existence for these motives, which are included by the Stoics in the category of "that which does not depend on me". The only exception we can consider is the case of a disgrace not before others whose judgement and contempt one cannot bear, but before oneself, because of one's own downfall. Considering all this, Senecas maxim can only have the meaning of an enhancement of the inner freedom of a superior being. It is not a matter of retreating because one does not feel strong enough before such ordeals and circumstances; rather, it is a matter of the sovereign right - that one always keeps in reserve - to either accept them or not, and even to draw the line when one no longer sees a meaning in them, and after having sufficiently demonstrated to oneself the capacity to face them.
 
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Suicide is a way out. Calling it cowardly and an easy way out is a misnomer for two reasons:
1. There is not always another "way out" to compare it to in order to call it the "easy way out"
2. Suicide can be easy or hard for the person to go through with, it's a subjective thing.
3. Asking someone else to suffer to prevent your own suffering is cowardly;
Taking action with limited options is not.

I don't know what you find graceful about death and/or suicide but I do not see it.
In fact, I think the only good to come from suicide is from those who were suffering and desperate for relief, no longer suffering.

Suicide can be many things. The only thing inherent to suicide, is killing yourself.
Irrespective of intent, reason, method, etc killing yourself (on your own volition) is suicide.

Some people kill themselves on a whim, others spend decades putting it off.
Some people are full of emotion, others can't stand being so empty.


I've tried killing myself because I was overwhelmed with emotion; I've been close to killing myself not from pain but rational thinking.
The irony is, killing yourself from emotion is a rational act and killing yourself from though is an emotional act.

The idea that emotional arguments will be lost on the emotional is absurd.
If anything, those "arguments" (which are a sham to begin with) will be more effective to the hurt than the numb.

Your quote is promoting suicide, and the last part is pretty much saying "It's your birth right to die. If you've dealt with something and you're able to deal with it longer but no longer see any point in continuing your battle, you may resign" which is wrong on many levels, the foremost being everything said prior to that sentence.
How the fuck does being able to deal with it mean you can stop dealing with it? And not being able to deal with it means you should continue to deal with it? What a crock of shit.

I find the whole thing to be poorly written and hard to follow.


I've thought about killing myself daily for years.
The first time I tried to kill myself, I was overwhelmed with emotion. I couldn't deal with my pain, I couldn't suffer.
These days, I'm seldom overwhelmed, though I still have plenty of pain.
I simply don't want to live. There's no value in existence.
Why live?


I want to kill myself within the next few months.
 
I also wanted to kill myself from the suffering I have experienced from a drug last 2012 and I am glad that I didn't.

What changed my mind many things:

1. I don't want to leave my loved ones and seeing them suffer after I am gone kills me more than killing myself.

2. If I got better in months time or even a few years and I killed myself, I would have regretted it in my grave.

3. Life has so many great things, there will always be suffering, pain and problems but there are many good things in life that you won't be able to experience when you are dead and rotten on the ground.

I do understand the point but we definitely have different views on life and I see life differently than most. How can you let go of the things that could make you happy and kill yourself? How can some people don't understand that fighting to live and feeling of triumph is the best feeling and euphoria one can ever have? What I want to always indicate is that some people always easily give up on problems and let them be overpowered by pain when you have a choice of dealing with it in different ways.

I have always been a fighter and I want to stay strong as long as I live. If I could live forever I will do it!
 
Suicide is not inherently wrong, immoral, or the coward's way out. One can go out gracefully without feeling desperate or in the throes of sadness. We should still strive to help those who are very emotional, on the edge, in a bad place, etc. We should even still try to help those who have decided, after much careful thought, to gracefully die

I agree, and this is one of the main reasons I support legal euthanasia. There are just some people who have decided, and no amount of emotional pleading will ever get them to change their minds, so there should be a way to support their decision, helping them pass in the most dignified and painless way possible.

You are not a coward for accepting the fact that you can no longer cope, in fact I believe that makes you braver than those that just struggle on trying to run from the truth. Of course I will still try to talk someone away from it initially, but there comes a point where you have to stop because you know it's not working and what then? Do you abandon them with their decision, alienating them more when they need support the most?
 
^This made me think about me in a certain situation:

Lets say I had an accident and the accident caused me to be in coma and there's no chance of reviving me in a normal state. Then at this point I will consider euthanasia as I see no point of me having to be kept alive in such a horrid state.
 
^This made me think about me in a certain situation:

Lets say I had an accident and the accident caused me to be in coma and there's no chance of reviving me in a normal state. Then at this point I will consider euthanasia as I see no point of me having to be kept alive in such a horrid state.

What about disease then? While there is no cure, should a cancer patient have to live through the agony of chemo knowing they're still going to die? How about degenerative diseases like Motor Neurons? IMO they're much worse states to have to live in than being in a coma.
 
I think at this point it will depend on the person, I will still try to fight and live but that's just how I am, I will not let go of the chances that I might survive the cancer and live through the last days of my life with a degenerative disease and will find ways to try to prolong my life.
 
You are not a coward for accepting the fact that you can no longer cope, in fact I believe that makes you braver than those that just struggle on trying to run from the truth.

Mind expanding on that? In my opinion, struggling against something is inherently more courageous than surrender.

What truth is this, anyway?
This subject is too subjective and intricate for broad statements.


I think what is interesting about suicide is the conflict between rights, really.
If there's one thing we own, it's our body. It's ours to do what we want with it.
But if we're in an unstable state of mind, we lose that right. Someone else can step in and stop permanent actions stemming from flippant desires
e.g. a tattoo artist turning down a drunk persons money


I am not expressing this well at all. I don't even know what I'm trying to say.

There are people who kill themselves after break ups, coming off drugs, and myriad other reasons which are not "genuine" and should be prevented.
Then there are people who are terminally ill, very aged, health issues that have taken away from their quality of life, who have every right to kill themselves.

What about the depressed?
For example, I could argue I have come to terms with the truth that my existence has no value to me.. Does this make it okay to stop trying to cope with existence?
To answer that, we have to take into account the POSSIBILITY that things get better, that the truth change.
But what does that matter when you have no fight in you?
 
Mind expanding on that? In my opinion, struggling against something is inherently more courageous than surrender.

There's not much to expand on. In my mind, trying to struggle on alone, too prideful to admit that it's overwhelming and you cannot continue is more cowardly than fully accepting it and the inevitable solution. Whether the solution be suicide, or seeking out help, it's the same.

For example, I could argue I have come to terms with the truth that my existence has no value to me.. Does this make it okay to stop trying to cope with existence?

If you still have the ability to cope, then by all means you should use that as best as you can. My point is, that there comes a time where you find that you no longer can and that's ok. You should not be ashamed about coming to that decision.

I am not expressing this well at all. I don't even know what I'm trying to say.

Don't worry, I get like that too. Especially when it comes to expressing such an unpopular opinion.
 
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