(answered) Complaint regarding Moderator behaviour and inappropriately locking my topic

[Altered Perception]

I believe my account was unfairly locked and I have a complaint regarding the presumptive behaviour of the moderator who responded on my topic.

To avoid any misunderstanding regarding my rare medical situation I first gave a very clear and descriptive explanation outlining why I felt amphetamines may help me to get my life back after having been beddridden for so long due to chronic fatigue syndrome and hypersomnia causing up to 15 hours of sleep a day.

I explained that I only began to consider amphetamine as a last resort after mild stimulants like coffee and tea failed to benefit in helping me get out of my bedridden state. I also explained that I had a complicated neurological illness which has left me disabled and that i also suffer from a chemical sensitivity due to a damaged autonomic nervous system and for this reason I had avoided the use of any psychoactive stimulants in the past 15 years upon developing my illness.

All I wanted to know was pharmacological suggestions regarding harm reduction in specific to hyperthermia, blood pressure and tachycardia.

I expected some level of criticism regarding my choice to try and treat myself with amphetamines temporarily just until I could get back on my feet and I was willing to further elaborate why I arrived at this choice.

However it bothered me that right away the response I received from the moderator responsible for locking my thread, was a of a skeptical and presumptive nature presented to me in the form of the following reply:

"this is a truly poor tactic to justify to yourself continued overuse of powerful stimulants"

I informed the moderator they were mistaken and once again I found myself repeating my the initial reasons for arriving at this choice, which the moderator had clearly ignored earlier.

My reasons are for wanting to use are purely of a medical nature, there was no other "tactic" or "continuation" or "overuse" as I had been accused of.

Then once again the same moderator replied with more scepticsm saying "Really, I'm not sure what your goal is here. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is, well, a chronic condition, so why would you want the symptoms treated for just several hours total (eg, by trying meth "twice")?" despite the fact that I had already explained my first use would be to reverse my sleep patterns by using the meth to keep me awake during the day so I could sleep at night.

My second use would be for helping me gain just enough energy/motivation to clean the neglected and accumulated mess which had grown in the past year and taken over my room. I believe a cleaner room is the first step to at least psychologically moving forward and making a change.

One of the symptoms of my neurological illness is rapid heart rate when I stand up and to treat that symptom I have been taking the betablocker "metoprolol tartrate" for the last 15 years. But because metoprolol can have adverse effects with stimulants I substituted that for an alpha blocker on the day I had planned on taking the meth. I first started off by taking "carvedilol and then clonodine" as I believed they could potentially reduce some of the hyperthermia and neurotoxicity issues relating to meth as described in medical papers and on bluelight discussions while also reducing my postural induced tachycardia from my neurological illness.

Unfortunately before I even began to take the meth the "Carvedilol and Clonidine" caused a massive drop in my blood pressure. While my heart rate sky rocketed. At that point I realized I needed my usual dose of metoprolol to control my heart rate but because I had already taken the "Carvedilol and Clonodine" I wasn't sure if I could add a third betablocker to the equation without making myself worse. So I immediately called my doctor who turned out to be away on that day. I then began to drive myself to the ER but turned back halfway as I felt a little better.

But when i got home I was still feeling the need to take my usual dose of metoprolol to control my rapid heart rate so I jumped on the forums and posted on my own topic asking if there was anyone around to help me rather urgently.

Upon my post the same moderator who locked my topic, once again began making more presumptions, and this time assuming that I had not contacted my doctor before asking for help. And then the same moderator who had treated me with skepticisms and several presumptions throughout my topic once again posted another assumption that my medical urgency was related to meth rather than the betablockers I had taken as a precautionary measure. And stated that:

"While it's likely that your anxiety is causing increasing physiological alarm (in turn increasing anxiety, and so on)"

And then they locked my topic before I could even reply to any of the presumptions or accusations.

I sent the first involved moderator "seiko" a message explaining the actual reasons I had posted for help and expressed that locking my thread was not warranted. it has now been 4 days and the moderator has not bothered to reply back with any response.

I then also tried sending the same query message the moderator "ebola" who was actually responsible for locking my topic along with all the presumptions and skepticism directed at me. But all my attempts to contact them have continued to fail as they have maintained a full inbox preventing any members from reaching the moderator in question.

For the reasons outlined in my complaint and for the lack of further communication from the moderators involved I am now requesting a second opinion from a senior moderator or an admin as to the behaviour and the locking of my topic. Bluelight served the purpose of reducing harm and yet when i needed help the most i was locked out. There is nothing in the guidelines that say you can only ask for help prior to taking drugs and nay request during or post use will be locked. And ironically I never even got around to taking an active dose of meth as of yet, especially when my only means of support for safe use was unfairly locked.

The locked topic can be found here, thanks:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/707353-How-to-avoid-hyperthermia-on-meth

 

[Tommyboy]

While you wait for a response here you may also want to report your post so all of the mods from that forum will see it.

If you would like to contact the senior staff that overlooks the forum then look through this thread to see who overlooks it.

 

[ebola?]

Uggh...I always do this with my PM box. I wish the board would send out an alert to recipients when messages bounce. I'll admit that I was presumptive about the OP's stimulant use, but I was more talking about the overuse in his past mentioned in the OP. AP clarified, and then we continued to give useful, practical advice. I was mistaken in presuming that the OP took meth, causing an alarming physiological reaction, but he made a post and participated in a discussion about meth and then returned asking for urgent help without posting anything in between, so my assumption was understandable, I think. I was mistaken in assuming that a doctor wasn't called before AP's having asked for urgent help on the forum, but really, why would someone post to a forum geared toward relatively slow-paced discussion of academic pharmacological topics requesting emergency assistance? Most people who do this in our forums do so before contacting a physician, so again, the assumption wasn't unwarranted.

Anyway, I think that the advice given in the thread remains sound (really, two uses of meth would be quite ineffective for treatment of chronic fatigue and more likely to fuck up one's sleeping patterns further), and the reasoning behind the thread closure stands. My apologies for all my misunderstandings though.

ebola
(I will alert the OP by PM that I've replied)

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

There was a lot of back and forth and some very good advice given before it was closed. It's not like he just replied saying, "don't do meth. See a doctor" and closed the thread with the second post. They let an in depth conversation go on for quite a while before coming to the conclusion that the thread would be better off closed.

 

[Altered Perception]

Tommyboy, I want to start off by saying thank you for reading through my complaint and for giving me sound advice.

 

[Altered Perception]

ebola?, I appreciate that you are an honest and big enough man to accept responsibility for certain aspects of my complaint rather than making excuses.

I never complained about the productive advice that was given however my topic was closed prematurely because my request to find a suitable antagonist was never resolved. Furthermore it was closed during a period when I needed help most.

Had I been given to the opportunity to elaborate on my request for urgent help, the reply from a knowledgeable person would have helped immensely during the adverse event.

I still fail to understand why you believe meth is unlikely to fix my sleeping problems. If i took an active dose of meth at 7 am in the morning, would it not prevent me from sleeping through the entire day? And would it not wear off by 12 o'clock midnight (17 hours after administration) so I can go to sleep at a normal time?

And in regards to the chronic fatigue syndrome, would it not give me an increase in energy and motivation enough to get me out of bed and allow me to do some choirs?

I don't doubt you had good intentions and misunderstandings are human nature but the end result (closing of my topic) did not help my case and left me frustrated.
However I accept and thank you for your apology and I too am sorry that it got to this point.

 

[Altered Perception]

There was a lot of back and forth and some very good advice given before it was closed. It's not like he just replied saying, "don't do meth. See a doctor" and closed the thread with the second post. They let an in depth conversation go on for quite a while before coming to the conclusion that the thread would be better off closed.

I never complained or questioned the pharmacological advice given to me by the moderators. In fact I appreciated the information on what substances would fail or benefit.

If you take a closer look at my topic you will see that it was I who was doing all the research to find potential solutions to my problem and then posting my finding on the forums so that people who are experienced with pharmacology could verify or disprove my findings...

Obviously the topic was very beneficial because the drugs I found used in experiments to counteract hyperthermia, blood pressure and tachycardia during meth were of no use in my case due to its added side effects as mentioned by the two moderators, and for that advice I was very thankful to them.

But my initial reasons outlined in my topic title was never clearly resolved. Which meant I continued to do more research and and since the closure of my topic I have found other potential drugs that I would have liked to cross reference with the moderators knowledge but before I could post my new findings on the forums for others to confirm my topic was closed. So I disagree with your point that "that the thread would be better off closed." Especially when I still have lot of questions to ask and still need to find a resolution.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

I didn't say I thought it would be better off closed. I have no opinion on it. Not my forum. I said that ebola and sekio let the conversation get pretty in depth before they came to the conclusion that the thread would be better off closed, which you obviously don't agree with, which is your prerogative.

As mods of their forum, they are entitled to make such a judgement call on what threads remain open and which ones do not.

I do wish you the best of luck with your situation though.

 

[Altered Perception]

As mods of their forum, they are entitled to make such a judgement call on what threads remain open and which ones do not.

I do wish you the best of luck with your situation though.

And being the 'full double Librian' that I am, fairness and justice always comes first in my life and I am just making sure that "judgement call" was of a valid, warranted, fair nature.

I thank you for your well wishes.

EDIT> I just wanted to add that I no longer want that thread reopened as its kind of ruined now and off the rail. The negative closing comments is going to put off any potential replies and its gone stale in there after sitting closed for days so i doubt anyone will bother to post in it. My complaint is just the principle of the matter which felt unfair to me.

 

[ebola?]

I never complained about the productive advice that was given however my topic was closed prematurely because my request to find a suitable antagonist was never resolved.

Ummm...I think we settled pretty definitively on clonidine as ideal for concurrent use with stimulants (with careful dosing of each).

Had I been given to the opportunity to elaborate on my request for urgent help, the reply from a knowledgeable person would have helped immensely during the adverse event.

How so though? You had already visited a physician and were assessed as not in danger. And none of this changes NPD being the wrong forum for urgent, practical advice.
I mean...there truly is thorough rationale for closing such threads and compelling people to see physicians when warranted, as posters really do somewhat commonly just sit in forums looking for replies while delaying medical treatment more often than is optimal.

I still fail to understand why you believe meth is unlikely to fix my sleeping problems. If i took an active dose of meth at 7 am in the morning, would it not prevent me from sleeping through the entire day? And would it not wear off by 12 o'clock midnight (17 hours after administration) so I can go to sleep at a normal time?

This is one potential outcome. Or you could end up deciding while high to redose (most people do, even if they don't plan to) and encounter insomnia that night...or hell, the original dose could even induce insomnia. And regardless, since your hypersomnia is chronic and enduring, one night with a reset sleep schedule is unlikely to do a whole lot in the long-term.

And in regards to the chronic fatigue syndrome, would it not give me an increase in energy and motivation enough to get me out of bed and allow me to do some choirs?

It would for one day, with rebound fatigue and amotivation after the meth wears off.

But my initial reasons outlined in my topic title was never clearly resolved.

Well, I feel like I'm currently repeating answers that we already gave in the thread.

I have found other potential drugs that I would have liked to cross reference with the moderators knowledge but before I could post my new findings on the forums for others to confirm my topic was closed. So I disagree with your point that "that the thread would be better off closed." Especially when I still have lot of questions to ask and still need to find a resolution.

Please feel free to post another thread (or search for a similar thread) to discuss those issues, but please make sure that you choose the right sub-forum (ie, that it fits the posted guidelines for discussion). Depending on your remaining questions, the mental health or healthy living subfora might be better fits.

My complaint is just the principle of the matter which felt unfair to me.

That's what this venue of discussion is here for, though again, keep in mind going forward that the reported posts feature gets our attention more quickly. Also, if you want any further resolution to the matter, the forum's senior moderators are there in part to examine moderators' decisions.

ebola

 

[Altered Perception]

Ummm...I think we settled pretty definitively on clonidine as ideal for concurrent use with stimulants (with careful dosing of each).

If you look back on my post I brought up the potential benefits of clonidine to counteract adverse effects and stated that: "I don't have any Clonodine though, is it worth getting?"

and you were kind enough to confirm that "clonidine-like drugs are still the obvious better choice"

So based on your recommendation I went out and got some clonidine because I obviously valued your input. But when you have willingly taken on the role of helping someone it would be nice to see them through their goal until they can report back on the results before cutting them off by closing their topic. I was never given the opportunity to report back whether the drug we "we settled" on worked successfully and in this case where clonodine (as beneficial as it may be) had an interaction with my current betablocker (metoprolol) it meant i was back at square one.

Please feel free to post another thread (or search for a similar thread) to discuss those issues, but please make sure that you choose the right sub-forum (ie, that it fits the posted guidelines for discussion). Depending on your remaining questions, the mental health or healthy living subfora might be better fits.

I originally posted my question in Basic Drug Discussion but you can clearly see another member posted on there saying "I would recommend perhaps requesting to move this topic to "Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion". Those guys over their would be able to offer some good insight".

So if you believe my topic would be less likely to be closed in "the mental health or healthy living subfora" I will do that. But do you really believe that people in those subforums are more capable of advising me in regards to: various pharmacological agents that act as an antagonist to protect or prevent METH-induced hyperthermia through their influence on brain chemistry and receptors ? As well as informing me on how those substances may interact with my current medications or why certain substances are likely to fail?

Since my absence from my topic I obtained some modafinil but only to find that it completely failed to work for me or keep me awake. The only thing modafinil did for me is inducing vivid dreams. So at one point out of frustration i considered trying the meth on the same day I had already taken the modafinil and I checked online to see if the two would have an adverse effect. To my surprise I came across the following topic:

Modafinil Treatment Modulates METH-induced Hyperthermia

A link between METH-induced hyperthermia and dopaminergic neurotoxicity in mice has been suggested [31]. Therefore, we sought to determine whether modafinil pretreatment could influence METH-induced hyperthermia. Core body temperature was measured 1 h before the first modafinil injection and at different time intervals thereafter (Figure 7). Two-way ANOVA showed that treatments and time produced a significant change [F(treatment) (3,130) = 19,63, p<0.0001, F(time) (5,130) = 19,63, p<0.0001], and that there was an interaction between the two factors [F(treatment × time) (15,130) = 4.73, p<0.0001]. Post hoc tests indicated that i) METH-treated mice showed an hyperthermic response, which was significantly different from VEH group at the second, third, and last METH injections (p<0.05), ii) modafinil administration alone had no effect on body temperature at any time, and iii) modafinil co-administration with METH (M+M group) significantly inhibited METH-induced hyperthermia (p<0.05). Two hours after the last METH injection a hypothermic effect was observed in METH and in M+M treated groups.

So had I needed to post a request for confirmation, what subforums do you believe would have been appropriate?

I am not here to argue with you or cause you trouble. The outcome upset me and I voiced my feelings and now I am over it. I now have to keep looking for other ways to get over this bedridden state.

 

[sekio]

Had I been given to the opportunity to elaborate on my request for urgent help, the reply from a knowledgeable person would have helped immensely during the adverse event.

Perhaps the rules need to be clarified in NSPD.

At least in Other Drugs and NSPD we strongly discourage "urgent request" threads. Bluelight is a recreational drug discussion forum; we are not TripSit nor do we maintain on-call medical staff. Most responses are going to be speculation or people telling you to see a doctor. At worst you might get hurt because you get bad advice. The moderators and other users shouldn't be held responsible for choices you make. If you have a question of medical urgency, you need to contact someone qualified, like a doctor or urgent care physician, get yourself to a doctor call 911 and get an ambulance, or reassess the situation.

By the same token we discourage people starting discussions with the clear intent to self-medicate or adjust treatment plans without the consultation or supervision of medical staff. This one is specified in the NSPD rules.

Disallowed topics:
[...]
4a. Medical/psychiatric questions: in particular, we are not here to advise you on what drugs you should take to treat a disorder you have diagnosed in yourself--that's your physician's job. However, discussion of the mechanisms involved in psychiatric medications is encouraged.

We are not here to act as street pharmacists, again for liabilities' sake. It is your doctor's job to prescribe medication and treatment plans, and more importantly, keep you from getting burned later. You need to see someone who knows what they are doing, rather than asking random people on the internet.

In the end though, Bluelight is about harm reduction, and sometimes the best way to reduce harm is to not take drugs in certain situations. Especially with someone who is desperate for life changes; that's a wonderful way to end up with an addiction, no matter how much you say "I'm only going to do it twice". Meth makes people change their minds. Meth changes people, and not in a good way. Thinking "It won't happen to me, I'm different" is going to get you burned. Ask some of the people in TDS - meth is not known for restoring energy after it has worn off.

If you want to post academically about drugs to reduce meth-induced hypothermia, do so in NSPD. But don't do it in the context of "I need this to treat XYZ, also help me with the side effects and drug interactions.".

 

[Altered Perception]

By the same token we discourage people starting discussions with the clear intent to self-medicate or adjust treatment plans without the consultation or supervision of medical staff. This one is specified in the NSPD rules..

Do you really want to go there? More than half the topics in "Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion" are about people self medicating and seeking ways to modify their response to drug use. Right now one of the hottest topics on your part of the forum is:

"Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention III" with over 19,833 views.

How is my topic any different than that other than being more specific to my particular condition?

You know very well as I do that talking to a family doctor about using illicit substances to improve quality of life is not going to be approved by the majority of doctors with traditional values. How many people here posting on forums also cross reference everything they have discussed with their doctors? If bluelight had a rule that said you can only post topics which you have discussed with your doctor, this place would be a dead zone.

And yes I am different in regards to "Thinking "It won't happen to me," because I am a casualty of drugs, I've already been there and done that. i have faced the worst case scenario other than death as aresult of drug abuse, something most people here are fortunate enough to never experience.

I was left disabled after an overdose. I spent 7 years as a hardcore raver taking a coctail of drugs every week only to ruin my entire life. And since I have a new perspective on life and a regard for health. And the only reason I even considered stimulants now after 15 years is because I NEED it. Where as the majority here only WANT it. Right now any positive effects far outweigh the negative effects. Because only I now the vegetative life that I am living in my bed 24/7. I know not to abuse it.

And while I appreciate your concern for me your entire topic above reads as if bluelight is designed more for recreational users and not so much for people who want to use medicinally.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

I don't understand what your plan with the meth is though.. you have a chronic condition of fatigue.. so unless you plan on taking meth all day, everyday, forever.. how is it going to help you? At best, it will give you a temporary "boost". And if you don't continue re-dosing, you will eventually crash, which coupled with your condition, will make you feel 10x worse than you do now with nothing.

So, what is the point of just taking meth for a couple days to get a boost of energy, only to have to eventually crash, and then go back to your normal state of fatigue? Or do you in fact just plan on being on stimulants for ever?

 

[sekio]

How is my topic any different than that other than being more specific to my particular condition?

The people in the amphetamine tox reduction thread are interested in sustainable, long-term treatments. You seem to have this impression that one day awake and one night of sleep is enough to correct your chronic fatigue, and that meth will be a magic solution to your problem.

You know very well as I do that talking to a family doctor about using illicit substances to improve quality of life is not going to be approved by the majority of doctors with traditional values.

Doctors do prescribe amphetamine. If they judge you need it, they can help you use it in a safe fashion.

I have a hard time believing that the *only* effective treatment for fatigue is crystal meth. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, metaphorically speaking.

 

[Dunno]

I could report an Moderator but i'm no informer and it doesn't matter (minor crap compared to life)..Let the past stay where it should be...In the past

 

[Altered Perception]

So, what is the point of just taking meth for a couple days to get a boost of energy, only to have to eventually crash, and then go back to your normal state of fatigue? Or do you in fact just plan on being on stimulants for ever?

Why does it have to be all or nothing? Okay lets look at my options regarding stimulant use:

a) Begin a stimulant addiction and use forever,

b) Do nothing and continue living with being bedridden and hypersomnia,

c) Use stimulants once or twice to resolve hypersomnia and clean up my room,

As trivial as option "c" sounds, for me it is the first steps I need to take to begin change and then everything else may slowly fall into place. Maybe I am deluded but if I can at least get sleep into a normal phase, I thought I could work on everything else without looking for an external agent to assist me.

Sleeping through the entire day, watching infomercials at night and climbing over piles of mess to get to the bathroom every time i get out of bed has brought me to my breaking point.

I am acting out of desperation. I didn't just wake up one day with fatigue and say "I need me some meth". Before I reached that point I tried many things and I am still trying and open to suggestion.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Okay I see. So you are looking at it as like a kind of temporary relief to get some shit done and actually have some energy for a change. I can understand the impulse.. having chronic fatigue and being so tired all the time must suck and even a couple days here and there of some energy would feel like a million buck for you.

If that to you is worth the possibility of getting wrapped up in meth addiction, or other consequences from its use, than that's a decision you're going to have to make with yourself. I can't pretend to know what it would be like to make such a choice because I've never had your condition.

I don't envy your situation, man. It sounds like you're at your wits end.

 

[Altered Perception]

I have a hard time believing that the *only* effective treatment for fatigue is crystal meth.

I agree there are other ways and I am trying. I have a row of supplements here for adrenalin boost and energy. As you know i also tried caffeine, last few days I've been trying modafinil which to my shock completely failed to work other than inducing vivid dreams. I have even tried dropping the word ritalin in an inquisitive fashion to my neurologist and doctor and they shut down the idea right away. In my experience doctors in Australia are very timid.

So I try forcing myself to get out of bed and pacing around the house but all the while my entire body is aching with intense exhaustion and craving for sleep. You know when you haven't slept for a day or 2 and you have this fuzzy warm heaviness caused by lack of sleep, thats exactly how I feel from the moment i open my eyes from the recommended amount of sleep. I end up rolling over and going right back to sleep for the rest of the day or unintentionally slip in and out.

Ever since I damaged my autonomic nervous system Ive battled with some level of fatigue and if you look up Dysautonomia it is a known common symptom and now if you also add CFS to the equation it completely puts me out of action. And I am desperate to look for a quick fix before depression takes a hold of me. Because if I let the mental fatigue of depression set in as well then I am screwed. At least for now I have some mental motivation left to fight this and I had to dig deep to find it because for a good part of last year I was content with just rotting away in bed for the rest of my life.

Hopefully we can wrap this up soon. I don't want to argue with you guys or upset anyone especially when your intension's are pure and aimed at helping me. Believe me I am grateful to you and ebola for your advice and concern but at the same time i was upset at being stuck without a paddle.

FINAL THOUGHTS: Again I am sorry if I have upset you guys and if it helps please delete this entire topic. Maybe I misdirected some of my frustration over an issue that may seem petty but being stuck in this jail cell of a room is doing my head in. The frustrations and the unfairness I have been stuck with in my own life have reduced my tolerance to cope with minor issues, especially in regards to fairness.

I have highlighted this to express my final thoughts in the matter and to avoid dragging this discussion any further. And I want to thank all of you here for your patience, support, advice and taking the time to read through my lengthy posts. I appreciate the opportunity to vent and I have no hard feelings towards any of you and I hope the feeling is mutual

 

[Tommyboy]

This thread was meant to be about a thread being closed that the OP felt should remain open. It's not meant to be the place to continue the discussion from the thread that was closed.

Since the moderators involved have posted in here and the PM issues have been addressed I'm going to close this and any further discussion can take place via PM.