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Ketamine for depression -- My new & improved method. Have a read.

A

arcticfox

Greenlighter
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
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I want to share my new Ketamine treatment for depression. My original inspiration is Jamshyd’s Ketamine Regimen but I've been thinking a lot about how to mimic the procedure of the ketamine clinical trials for depression. In the trials the procedure lasts 40 minutes and the dosage is .5mg/Kg. I felt that Jamshyd's regimen took to long (4-7 days). And yes I tried it with success, but I found it inconvenient to take that much time to get a result.

You should also know that I'm not someone who's going to IV ketamine, and most people won't do it either. So the problem that I've been trying to solve hit me yesterday. The question was simple: How can I mimic the clinical studies with ketamine powder?

A little bit about me. I've been feeling depressed over the past 2 years. It's been worse over the past year due to unemployment. When I get stressed I get depressed. It's genetic. Some people are more resilient than others. Not everything is a choice. With my genetics, when I feel stress over an extended period of time, I get depressed. I tried pharmaceuticals (Prozac, Pristiq). I didn't like them. I found them too stimulating; felt restless and they caused insomnia. When I stopped taking them I felt better because the side effects were no longer masking their underlying benefit. And I didn't want to try another antidepressant and go through all the side effects for weeks.

These past few days I've been feeling more agitated, restless, hopeless and suicidal. You know, that feeling like it's all over. I describe it as 'drowning.' That feeling that the walls are closing in on you and you can't take it anymore. Death seems like a good option when you get that feeling. I absolutely hate being in that place. It's a nightmare. So, last night, I decided I was going to do ketamine to help me feel better, but I didn't want to spend a week dosing.

So, here's what I did today and I think it's a good solution. And yes, it worked. I feel better. More motivated. The future isn't as dark. Feel calmer. It's only been a few hours since I finished the procedure so I'm expecting the positive effects to continue to work on my mind.

Enough small talk. Here's what I did.

You should know, I used racemic ketamine. I don't have much tolerance either since I never do high doses. I'm using ketamine medicinally -- as medicine. Yes, it is possible.

Based on all my research it seemed an essential factor in having ketamine work for depression is to maintain a steady dose over a short period of time. So, my goal was to simply maintain a steady influx of ketamine into my system in the shortest amount of time possible without getting too high. My target was to feel that initial buzz at the very early phase of disassociation. Translated: I could walk around, write, think, go to the bathroom, etc., but I had that hyper-reality feeling that ketamine gives you as it starts to work on your body and mind. Again, the goal is to feel the slight buzz and numbness -- the key is slight. My focus was to stay in that initial buzz state -- TO MAINTAIN THE FEELING AND NOT TO CONTINUE TO GET HIGHER. In the trials, patients also had feeling of disassociation so this is ok as long as it isn't strong.

Also, based on .5mg/Kg my target was to get around 40mg of Ketamine into my system. My method was intranasal. Remember that the bioavailability of ketamine intranasally is 25-50% (IV is 100% bioavailability). I decided that 40% of the ketamine I took, would be available to my body. Why 40%? Well, it's a guess. I don't know why the data shows the bioavailability of ketamine to range between 25-50%, and I have no way of testing it. I don't know what the variables are. Based on that assumption, I needed to consume (internasally) 100mg of ketamine. 40% of 100mg = 40mg.

11:45pm - 20mg (10mg each nostril)
12:10pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril)
12:24pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril)
12:54pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril)
1:22pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril)
1:48pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril)
2:10pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril)
2:37pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril)
2:56pm - 10mg (5mg each nostril) --- Last Dose

You'll notice, My first round was a little higher to get things started, then I continued with small doses throughout. The goal was to just keep fueling the feeling and not taking it any further. Maintenance is the key. Less is more.

I found that the times between dosing was between 15-25 minutes. Again, I just based it on how I was feeling. When I started to feel the buzz decline for several minutes I would start on my next dose. It's important to make sure that the high has gone down a little before dosing again.

I really wanted to share this in the hope that others would try this method. I'd love to hear feedback on this if you try it. Feel free to ask me any questions.

Total time for this procedure was 3hours and 11minutes. Total ketamine used was 100mg. I assume that 40% of that was available to my body -- give or take a few percentages. Either way, a little more or less doesn't matter too much. The important thing is that it's within range. Also, I weigh 172 pounds -- around 78Kg.

Please excuse any spelling/grammar mistakes. I wrote this fairly quickly.

Thanks. Look forward to the feedback.
 
I'm glad it was therapeutic for you, it sounds like you need help - have you talked to people in TDS forum?

How did you come up with 0.5 mg / kg ? I trust you have done your homework on this but please keep the dose as low as possible - I understand the above might be about a higher 'attack dose' approach, but counter-intuitive as it may seem less is more and I don't think intensity of dissociation should be used as a measure or sign of AD effect at all. Oh I see you already mentioned the less is more so that's good, but I would not try to fuel the feeling if I were you but instead trust that you will get AD effect at sub-threshold doses regarding dissociation. Otherwise getting slightly dissociated could imply development of tolerance and that is the beginning of the end.

Quick reference links for other readers and posters here:
Jamshyd's regimen thread
Foreigner's regimen thread
 
I feel much better today. I feel calm, motivated and optimistic. So this particular regime certainly works but I do agree with you, and I do intend to aim for sub-threshold doses the next time I do it. I think the 'high' I felt was not necessary so I plan to stick with 10mg (5mg each nostril) but with a longer period of time in between so I don't feel any dissociative feelings -- or very mild at the most.

The numbers came directly from studies. One example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19897179

What's the TDS forum? Sorry, I'm new here.

Thanks,
 
The Dark Side is a part of Bluelight focusing on support for and discussion of all kinds of difficulties, crisis, depression, you name it.
Good to hear you are feeling better, I am personally in an upswing considering several aspects of my life... after a bout of issues that are chronic and periodically recurrent. But when people like you and me keep having bad periods returning periodically it is good to anticipate them and try to keep contact with people (IRL and online, both can be valuable, sometimes in different and complementary ways) so that you are familiar with it in case you will need it later, to not get stuck alone... what I am trying to say is don't let it go to far and share your feelings with people who can empathize with them, not only because we may care for each other as a community of fellow human beings, but also it can help a lot to be in contact with others that know what despair is, too. :)
I must admit that I have my own, slightly different ways / means of contacting people that way but the point is that I do.

Do with that what you like. :)

^ also..
It is IMO indeed a better plan to avoid dissociative effects, yeah. I don't think using ketamine as an AD is about the actual directly noticeable dissociative effects making you forget or numb towards your feelings, body, your life, your problems. Remember that ketamine is (potentially) addictive - I know that from experience - so don't confuse those aspects or modes of action of K, it might lead you to abuse. Maybe you feel completely in control now, but don't even step into ambiguity, slippery slopes are very sneaky and defining clear rules is IMO necessary so that you can be aware of how responsible your use is and when your dose is justified.
 
Thank-you for your supportive words. Much appreciated. It's true that it's best not to wait until things are really bad before taking action. It's certainly extremely helpful to be connected to other people and not feel alone in the suffering. Depression has a way of convincing you of another reality that isn't an accurate view of the world. Life might be horrible at times but it's good to be reminded that things can get better and that just because today is bad doesn't mean the future will always be like this. That's the curse of depression -- that feeling that the darkness won't end, but it does and it will if treated.

To be honest, I don't actually enjoy Ketamine recreationally. I don't like the high so I'm not concerned about addiction. In fact, I'd prefer not to feel any disassociation so the target of a sub-threshold dose is fine with me. I truly am only using it as medicine. I think it's important for other people (in general) to realize that pharmaceutical drugs are chemicals that affect our biology and have side effects as well. The main difference is that most pharmaceuticals aren't engineered to be abused and so they are considered "safe." Obviously, some drugs are abused, such as Oxycodone and Benzo's, etc.. But generally they are engineered for safety in the sense that they don't typically 'feel good.' So, if we can have self discipline with drugs such as ketamine then the risks are no greater than pharmaceuticals. Many drugs are illegal because they can be abused due to their 'feel good' nature but in small doses they can be beneficial. The key is up to the individual and in how they are used and with what frequency. I just want to stress that I'm not implying that all drugs are beneficial in small doses, but some illegal drugs are and ketamine is one of them.

New drugs are being developed based on ketamine and ketamine treatment centers are already currently treating people. The science supports it. The discipline part is up to the individual. Unfortunately I'm in Canada so I can't walk into a clinic and get treatment because if I could have an IV in me for 40 minutes and feel better, I would do it in a heartbeat -- as long as it was a Doctor sticking the needle in me.

New drugs based on ketamine
http://www.naurex.com/html/glyx13.html
http://psychcentral.com/lib/depression-new-medications-on-the-horizon/0005794

Ketamine treatment centers in the USA
http://depressionrecoverycenters.com/
http://ketamine4depression.com/
http://www.azcentral.com/community/...ens-in-scottsdale-for-chronic-depression.html

Currently reading a good book on depression for those interested: http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Patt...&keywords=breaking+the+patterns+of+depression
 
I have been struggling with depression for more than 20 years, and have tried EVERYTHING. At my last psych appt., I was told that I'm treatment resistant. I also deal with debilitating headaches from a car accident years ago.
I started researching options and learned about ketamine infusions. I live in Tampa, where a world renowned ketamine infusion doctor practices. 10 grand for a total treatment, no insurance. I then learned about intranasal ketamine. I am desperate to find someone to prescribe this; even with a suicide attempt in June, no one wants to move away from the pharmaceuticals, which just don't work for me. PLEASE, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Anyone know of a psych, pain management dr or anesthesiologist in the Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater area, or within an hour's drive? Thanks so much.
 
My relationship to the use of drugs for depression is much different than this. I prefer using drugs to facilitate insights, not to chemically treat my brain in a physical manner that removes depression. I believe we are inundated with the idea that our problems are based on the physical far too much. Yes, depression can be treated with SSRI's - that does not mean that depression stems from a physical issue, it merely means it may be suppressed through physical means. Perhaps you are genetically disposed to depression, but it is not a theory about the nature of depression that I have ever felt comfortable with. I highly distrust the psychiatric establishment. It seems like every decade they seem to have the attitude that they are sooo much more advanced than they were in the previous stone age decade - every decade.

I don't trust ketamine, I wouldn't touch that horse tranquilizer with a ten foot pole just by a cursory glance at the body language exhibited by John Lilly. THAT'S why depression goes away - all becomes monotonous and removed. John Lilly became very distressed when he took MDMA with Rick Doblin and realized what he had done to himself. I judge drugs based on what they do in high doses, by the way, I understand you are not doing what Lilly did, I merely am indicating a distrust in the "character" of ketamine.

I also don't trust SSRI's, benzos, or amphetamines, for any of the things they are prescribed for. Are they necessary? Perhaps in a world where the correct solution is unknown, but that does not make them correct, merely the only known method. Still poison.
 
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Anything more than threshold/sub-threshold doses of ketamine is likely to cause abuse effects, based on the current research. I don't really understand why certain clinics in the U.S. are giving treatments at 0.5mg/kg of body weight when not only does the data show it's probably too much, but you can achieve the same relief of systems with much lower doses. Ketamine's nootropic effect is maximized at doses under 15mg total. The only exception is in Europe where they did trials using k-hole doses in cases with spiraling suicidal ideation, with the express purpose of simulating a near death experience. K-hole doses cause downregulation just like anything higher than threshold doses, but the k-hole dose was productive because it provided a pseudo-death experience from which to have better realizations about living. Of all the research I've read, higher doses (50-100mg) are reserved exclusively for SINGLE USE ONLY, and to jolt people out of the most extreme states of mind. There is no rationale for doing that on a regular basis.

The new in-clinic ketamine treatments in the U.S. are a money racket and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could toss them. Someone recently told me online that they were charged nearly a grand for an IV with 65mg of ketamine in it in a clinical setting in New York, which is obscene, but the same doctor refused to prescribe any take-home solution. I think they are using the higher doses because it justifies the existence of the clinical interventions, which cost the patient more. No one would tolerate that if it were a 10mg injection, which is actually a lot healthier. Some regions allow doctors to prescribe nasal sprays, but they're expensive and in the order of 35-50mg per dose which IMO is still too high. Maybe I'm just jaded but it seems like a lot of modern pharmacy is designed to hurt people so that they will need further medical help, which is exactly what higher dose ketamine could do to some depression patients. Those pre-frontal synapses are really sensitive in the typically depressed patient and if you over-antagonize them you might aggravate the problem long-term.

<15mg is actually the closest thing to a cure we'll ever get, but it's one of those blatant cases where modern medicine is steering away from it in favour of potentially more damaging doses. It's sneaky because the ignorant won't know there's an important difference. If the higher doses cause damage and the patient feels worse, then the doctors can conclude that ketamine didn't work for you so you should try other drugs.

I think the problem here is that modern medicine is realizing that their pre-1980's creations are actually more effective than the newer crap that companies are putting out, so they're trying to re-model the system in order to extract profit, hence in-clinic ketamine administration. The patent on ketamine expired a long time ago so they need to do what they can, but the clinics are a waste IMO. When I did my ketamine regimen, being in my familiar home environment helped greatly with the therapeutic process. The last thing I would want is a clinical environment. If people are that afraid of being a bit mind-altered on their own from 10mg then maybe ketamine isn't for them. Unfortunately I have not heard of any cases in the continental U.S. where a doctor was willing to prescribe 10mg/dose ketamine to anyone.
 
Could you link something about the Europe treatments you mentioned, please?
 
We need a ketamine formulation that provides for once daily dosing

I don't undersand why the pharmaceutical companies haven't jumped on this. The various analogs possible for this very purpose (think mxe longer duration) though I suspect it's on account of the abuse potential rendering the drugs scehduled thus hindering sales, as well as the competition invariably invoked against their long line of SSRI/SNRI antidepressants. Those goddamned things were a cash cow in their prime depsite being practically useless and riddled with side effects and dependence. Hopefully we'll start seeing some NMDA antagonists in higher percentages.
 
Daily dosing seems unwise IMO. Especially given that the benefits of a single dose can last 7-14 days. Weekly or biweekly should be sufficient in most instances. Based on the research I'm familiar with any way
 
any major dude said:
Daily dosing seems unwise IMO. Especially given that the benefits of a single dose can last 7-14 days. Weekly or biweekly should be sufficient in most instances. Based on the research I'm familiar with any way
Click to expand...

You are indeed right I'm just greedy I suppose. ;)

That and in all practicality in my scenario if a pharmaceutical company hypothetically did develop such a formulation I can't see them only encouraging dosing weekly or fortnightly on account of the strong monetary incentives present in selling such a drug. It certainly would be popular if it overtook SSRI's as the dominant antidepressants used for first line treatment(I can dream.)

Consider amphetamine salts and the dwindling efficacy the drug effects have over time, since they're encouraged often in high doses throughout the with no breaks to allow tolerance to be kept at bay. There are many doctors that would reprimand a patient sho decided to take his ADHD meds PRN even though the science clearly suggests that this kind of dosing if done properly (IE: with the doctors blessing and guidance) is far superior than simply eating speed every day for the rest of your life, upping the doses when it loses steam, adding meds to try and fight a never ending battle with tolerance.

Then again they could just make it really expensive I suppose that could work I've just not seen it done before. Obviously I'm having fun hypothetical scenearios here.

My only concern would be the long-term effects the kidneys would suffer using ketamine in this way though if used sparingly I'm sure it would be negligible.
 
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