Do benzodiazepines cause addiction as well as physical dependence?

[neversickanymore]

Since there are multiple views on this I would love to know what you guys think can benzodiazepines cause addiction as well as that very strong physical dependence?

I thought this was a good topic that started in another thread so these posts have been moved from there to prevent disruption of that thread.

one of the greatest things about benzos is that they aren't addicting.. hell of a physical dependence.. but after we get through that no real desire to use them at all.. wish to hell it worked like that with opiates.

wait..what?
i'd say out of every drug i've ever used and it's been too many at this point..
nothing's been more addictive than benzos..
obviously, in my own personal experience.

...


when I was trying to get this thread going I lost a post of mine so I will try and rewrite it

I was on benzos for like seventeen years and once I was able to kick them I have not had any desire to use at all. What symptoms have you experienced that lead you to believe they are addicting.

 

[tokenname]

Im to scared from xanax since i was once addicted to them...

that's ^ what I got from the op's post..sounds like they went through a bad w/d from
the benzos and don't want to go back..and not so much that they've no desire to take them again.

i would say that i experienced quite a strong desire to take them..
continued use despite harmful consequences..not absolutely terrible consequences but
definitely memory loss, behavior that was out of character and arguments with people i cared for when
i didn't want to stop..so obviously my behavior bothered them quite a bit..
god i remember an ex flushing an entire 120ct. bottle of diazepam..
i rarely become super angry..but holy hell that wasn't pretty. at all..
honestly, typing that i feel residual anger about it..and it was a couple years ago.
so..obviously, at times i had a lot of difficulty controlling my use..
and even chose to make sure i'd have them available or use them over
other obligations/activities I was involved in..
these are all pretty much the benchmarks of addiction..
i'm really not trying to debate this too much and definitely don't want to hijack the op's thread though..
i do strongly disagree however..in my own opinion and experience..
they've been absolutely dreamy but also highly addictive..

 

[neversickanymore]

that's ^ what I got from the op's post..sounds like they went through a bad w/d from
the benzos and don't want to go back..and not so much that they've no desire to take them again.

Why then do so many herion addicts finish with a terrible withdraw and say they never ever want to do that again only to find themselves using with in a day or two?

i would say that i experienced quite a strong desire to take them..

Was the strong desire to use them associated with not wanting to have the withdrawl symptoms? Do you remember having actual cravings for this drug? Did you ever have a using dream about this drug?

continued use despite harmful consequences..not absolutely terrible consequences but

Did you continue to use to avoid the incredibly awful withdraws. Did you continue to use because you liked the effects of the drug? If the drug had stopped producing any positive effects and you had made it past the acute withdrawls do you think you would have still have felt a drive to use them?

definitely memory loss, behavior that was out of character and arguments with people i cared for when
i didn't want to stop..so obviously my behavior bothered them quite a bit..

If you wanted to stop then how much of a difference would this have made?


A few things that I feel may be missing from benzos but which are characteristics of addiction would be

"Inability to consistently Abstain" I think that once people make the descion to never use benzos again and make it through the acute and PAW then I'm not sure if they are left with the Inability to consistently abstain by just using makeing the descion never to use and sticking to that descion.

"Craving; or increased “hunger” for drugs or rewarding experiences;" I would question this as well for benzos

"The power of external cues to trigger craving and drug use, as well as to increase the frequency of engagement in other potentially addictive behaviors, is also a characteristic of addiction" do people get triggered for benzos once they are off them?

 

[tokenname]

Why then do so many herion addicts finish with a terrible withdraw and say they never ever want to do that again only to find themselves using with in a day or two?

I believe it absolutely has to do with personality type and also there's just no denying that
opiates are much more euphoric and appeal to wider population of people..
and also..the withdrawal from opiates no matter how terrible..and I've done it quite a few times..
is really nothing compared to benzos..and it frightens people less.
after I've made it through say..my week of acute w/d from an opiate..it's not enough to scare me away from that high.
I know i'll always be able to endure that. I cannot say that with benzos. it's w/d is enough to talk me out of using it
a week later. sometimes. sometimes it's not.
I think we also have to consider that the effects of benzos are in the same vicinity of so many other drugs including
alcohol, barbituates, muscle relaxers and others..whereas if you want the effects of an opiate, then an opiate is what you must have.
when I can't get the effects I need from valium, i'm able to quell that craving with a few glasses of wine or a couple soma or something similar..I've known some who can even just take a heavy dose of antihistamine to get through the craving. that feels terrible to me..but it works for some.

Was the strong desire to use them associated with not wanting to have the withdrawl symptoms? Do you remember having actual cravings for this drug? Did you ever have a using dream about this drug?

no the strong desire was definitely for the psychological and physical effects of the benzo at hand.
yes. I have very real cravings even now just as I write and wonder about this..
the dream thing I can't answer. i'm just unsure.

Did you continue to use to avoid the incredibly awful withdraws. Did you continue to use because you liked the effects of the drug? If the drug had stopped producing any positive effects and you had made it past the acute withdrawls do you think you would have still have felt a drive to use them?

I continued for the effect of the drug, definitely. it's something i'm entirely unable to recreate myself.
yes. I always, always do. when they stopped creating positive effects I always increased my dose to solve that dilemma.

If you wanted to stop then how much of a difference would this have made?

oh I'm unsure how to answer that. too speculative..I never really wanted to stop.
I've only ever stopped out of necessity, really.

A few things that I feel may be missing from benzos but which are characteristics of addiction would be

"Inability to consistently Abstain" I think that once people make the descion to never use benzos again and make it through the acute and PAW then I'm not sure if they are left with the Inability to consistently abstain by just using makeing the descion never to use and sticking to that descion.

I honestly believe that fits any genre of drug. if the decision is made to never use it again..
and the willpower's there..plenty of people are able to consistently abstain from opiates, alcohol, benzos, nicotine.
I honestly don't see the difference except that it was something that you never became addicted to.
I agree that the margin of people who become addicted to benzos is much smaller..
but I don't believe that fact excludes them from being addictive.
I just think the effects aren't pronounced enough for many people.
but for some of us..the effects are perfection.

"Craving; or increased “hunger” for drugs or rewarding experiences;" I would question this as well for benzos

again, I think that's an individual preference for the effects.
I definitely have cravings for benzodiazepines when i'm not using them.

"The power of external cues to trigger craving and drug use, as well as to increase the frequency of engagement in other potentially addictive behaviors, is also a characteristic of addiction" do people get triggered for benzos once they are off them?

that I don't know.
i'm triggered by life in general but can't answer that for anyone else.
I feel i'd honestly be shocked though if i'm the only one who feels this way..
guess we're about to see.
i'd like to know.

 

[Dark Side]

My experience with Valium was like hmm i will buy a couple and test em out could be good for job interviews etc, but then i started treating them like they were sweets in no time there a real crutch for someone like me anxiety issues. How ever after a month and a half usage i stopped taking them for 5 days. Thats then the WD's started and since then i was like FK this drug when i have finished tapering off im not gonna use it again. i couldn't believe how brutal the WD's felt after just such a small amount of time using (around 30mg a day average)

Opiates on the other hand are alot more addictive imho, i abused codeine for like a year now aswell as DHC, i know you probably think its a joke of an opiate but i am sure as hell hooked on the stuff psychologically way more so then valium which was more of an experiment gone wrong for me ><

 

[tokenname]

an opiate is an opiate is an opiate..
i'm old..in my 30's and I've w/d from most of them at this point..and the w/d from any opiate really isn't much
different..besides methadone..i swear methadone w/d lasts for years.
personally, with how my body metabolizes these drugs..
i'd absolutely rank dhc pretty equivalent to oxycodone in it's effects and worse even in w/d psychologically.
though I don't really know why. oxy has always been the easiest of opiate withdrawal's for me..
it's like a week and i'm done..
I've a soft spot for dhc actually and had a difficult w/d from it about a year and a half ago..
after several months of routine use..
there are people who dose themselves with high dose loperamide-(immodium) an opiate which
rarely crosses the blood brain barrier..and end up in horrible w/d when they try to stop..
none of them are a joke..codeine sort of transforms to morphine as it's broken down in the body so none of them are a joke dear
and you'll find no judgment here, dark side.

 

[Jackeh]

I think it depends on why you use them. I imagine it would be extremely easy to get a psychological addiction to benzos if you had extreme anxiety that only they could help with.

 

[Maya]

I know someone personally who is struggling with benzo addiction and he is tapering off at the moment. He has tried every class of benzo and I believe was addicted to Temazepam at some point. He still uses benzo for anxiety and also has a really bad social anxiety. Like what Jackeh already mentioned, it depends on why you use them.

 

[Not Again]

Everything is in your head. If you are addicted to "Xyz" then you will have a strong desire to do "xyz".

I only use benzos to help relax and try to not ever use them longer than a week. I never had an urge to have to use them though. I have with opiates though my DOC. Thankfully I've reprogrammed my brain and no longer want to use them.

I once was taking xanax ( low doses 1mg or less) for 3 weeks to a month and had like 2 restless nights after I stopped, but that was it.

 

[Gratuitous Grace]

Since there are multiple views on this I would love to know what you guys think can benzodiazepines cause addiction as well as that very strong physical dependence?

I'm confused. Is there some distinction to be made between "addiction" and "that very strong physical dependence"? Are you trying to get at the distinction between psychological and physical?

All I can say with authority is that Benzos are a BITCH to get off of once you are addicted -- however you describe that. You can either take my word for it -- tapering (if you can even call it that) for the last six(!) years. Or jump over to the OD forum (I think that's where we hang out) and read others' stories.

I don't know why I haven't been able to rid myself of this shit despite a strong, bordering on desperate, desire to do so. I don't think I've been treating anxiety in more than a decade; I think I'm just treating withdrawal symptoms at this point. And I'm on such a low dose -- 1.0 mg per day of Klonopin. Reducing that by any significant amount, though, leads to all kinds of horror. I'm contemplating a 1% per day taper starting the first of the year. Maybe that will work?

If so, then my physical dependence should (I pray) be gone. In terms of a psychological desire to start using Benzos again? I think I'd rather kill myself first. I'm obviously not yet Benzo-free, and so I probably am not on solid ground to say that. But, I have had the option (via psychiatrists) to increase my dosage, and I just will not do that. That may be analogous to a desire to start using again? IDK.

 

[tokenname]

^^
there's a huge distinction between addiction and dependence.
addiction is a word used to describe a certain set of behaviors..
where the person addicted is motivated to procure and self administer
the substance in order to produce the desired physical and/or psychological effect..
their motivation is the desire to alter their normal physiological state.

someone who is dependent but not addicted is motivated to take the substance in
order to keep their physiological state functioning normally.


you are dependent - you need to keep yourself functioning normally.

i was/am addicted - i dislike the way i function normally and very much prefer to alter it when i am/i was able to.
depending on how long my benzo use lasted in the past..my addiction to the benzos then caused me
to become dependent several times.

i went through a horrible withdrawal from effexor several years ago..and that experience
was enough to finally say no more ssri's. although i wish they did..they just don't work for me..and i end up both physically and psychologically dependent without any improvement in my psychological state whatsoever..
because there are no pleasurable effects i've ever received from any antidepressant..and the withdrawal
is so terrible..i would never become addicted to them.
but the physical and psychological effects of benzos are extremely pleasurable to me..and even though benzo withdrawal is equally as horrible as antidepressant withdrawal - i'm addicted and can therefore feel fairly certain that down the road..i will probably end up dependent on them again.

 

[Allein]

I had an ongoing and quite significant issue with Valium for a good while and started drinking heavily on top as well, it is my understanding that sudden withdrawal can cause seizures although some seem to avoid this problem.

I tapered 3 times before managing to not relapse using the Ashton method

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

It's a very useful document and can be used to draw up a slow taper which reduces withdrawal symptoms dramatically, on the last attempt I managed to cease alcohol as part of the program I put together.

Diazepam is best due to it's longer half life, I reduced every week and if it was getting too uncomfortable I just held that dose for an extra week, I got off everytime but managed to relapse oartly due to me continued drinking. I won't say how much I was taking but it was well above a therapeutic dose.

 

[neversickanymore]

I think it is important to recognize that alcohol does manipulate the dopamine reward pathway when we talk about the two of those drugs together.

That is a great link on benzos and i hope you take a seck and give it a peak GG.

 

[Spadez87]

Since there are multiple views on this I would love to know what you guys think can benzodiazepines cause addiction as well as that very strong physical dependence?

I thought this was a good topic that started in another thread so these posts have been moved from there to prevent disruption of that thread.




...


when I was trying to get this thread going I lost a post of mine so I will try and rewrite it

I was on benzos for like seventeen years and once I was able to kick them I have not had any desire to use at all. What symptoms have you experienced that lead you to believe they are addicting.

I've been on one benzo or another for the last 9 years. IMO they are ridiculously addicting. I've tapered twice and also cold turkeyed twice after multiple years of use and for some reason even after the physical and mental hell that is benzo w/d I always end up going back.

 

[puking]

You bet...

 

[neversickanymore]

I've been on one benzo or another for the last 9 years. IMO they are ridiculously addicting. I've tapered twice and also cold turkeyed twice after multiple years of use and for some reason even after the physical and mental hell that is benzo w/d I always end up going back.

How long were you able to make it off before you returned to use?

Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome - Wiki Article
Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome audio

The position I am arguing here is that once a person is able to make it through the BWS then they will not ever be driven to use again.

I think that this thread and its participants are doing an amazing job at exploring this issue.

 

[kalico]

i quit for a year and still wanted more xanax i go through too much anxiety to give it up but i don't find it recreational at all

 

[Eveleivibe]

I'm confused by this thread. There are lots of evidence saying that benzos are addictive n there are many people's experience here of trying to come off them. I could quote a few but I'm quit busy at the moment to do that.

 

[neversickanymore]

There are some amazing and highly respected scholars including David J. Linden is an American professor of neuroscience at Johns Hopkins University who are of the view that they obviously cause physical dependence and neural dysregulation and resulting PAWS or BWS, but as they don't manipulate the VTA or dopamine reward pathway, they don't cause addiction. So this view believes that if a person can make it through the detox and also the healing period following the detox then they shouldn't be saddled with a drive to use that has cravings and the other psychological and behavioral features that are associated and define addiction.

Other factors that can contribute to the appearance of addiction, leading to its characteristic bio-psycho-socio-spiritual manifestations, include:<(partial list)>

• The presence of an underlying biological deficit in the function of reward circuits, such that drugs and behaviors which enhance reward function are preferred and sought as reinforcers
• The repeated engagement in drug use or other addictive behaviors, causing neuron-adaptation in motivational circuitry leading to impaired control over further drug use or engagement in addictive behaviors
• Cognitive and affective distortions, which impair perceptions and compromise the ability to deal with feelings, resulting in significant self-deception
• Exposure to trauma or stressors that overwhelm an individual’s coping abilities;
• Distortion in meaning, purpose and values that guide attitudes, thinking and behavior;

Addiction is characterized by:<(partial list)>

• Inability to consistently Abstain;
• Impairment in Behavioral control;
• Craving; or increased “hunger” for drugs or rewarding experiences;
• The power of external cues to trigger craving and drug use, as well as to increase the frequency of engagement in other potentially addictive behaviors, is also a characteristic of addiction, with the hippocampus being important in memory of previous euphoric or dysphoric experiences, and with the amygdala being important in having motivation concentrate on selecting behaviors associated with these past experiences.

Addiction defined by ASAM: The American Society of Addictive Medicine
SOURCE

So this thread is a place for us to explore our opinions and share our experiences on this topic.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Interesting - thanks for information, NSA. That makes sense. I was thinking what about behavourial addictions but I noticed that you had those covered too. It is very easy to confuse addiction n dependency. Take suboxone for instance (sorry not de-rail thread just to use as an example...) A lot of people accuse suboxone of being addicting when really they are more dependent on it. Yet no one accuses antidepressants of being addicting yet there are withdrawal symptoms by coming off these. People can argue that they may 'crave' suboxone but really is this due to it being part opiate n pathways in the brain or because people KNOW that suboxone is an opiate n may affect pathways in the brain.

I can't comment on benzos as I've not had experience of them just mentioned those other drugs to highlight differences between addiction n dependency.

Once again - thanks

Evey x