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  • Film & TV Moderators: ghostfreak

Television Breaking Bad

you both sound pretty mad over fiction

E/OT: predicted the fake cash thing, the gangpeeps turning up but was not expecting walt to almost turn himself in.
I almost wish we didnt see him turn 55 etc. Would have made that episode far more 'on the edge of your seat'-y
 
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I so thought that either Hank and/or Gomez was going to just get a sudden bullet through the head. Then when those guys all just rolled up and had that ridiculous fire fight.. (how the hell did they not hit hank and gomez once with alllll thoseeee guns, and the fact they weren't even behind cover when they started firing!?)

But, after Jesse and Hanks douche-bagness last episode, I'm now totally okay with both of them getting killed.
 
Lol yeah, sorry about the 1 curse word in my post Bluelight. I can see how that could have scarred some of you here. Here, I'll be the first one to stick out the olive branch. I apologize purplekush1. Trying to legitimize poisoning a child and arguing that poisoning a child is less objectionable than tattletaling makes perfect sense. I mean, Walt KNEW Brock wouldn't die right, so theoretically if given the chance you would have offered up your own child...right? :) Oh yeah, and heroin users should know they risk choking on their own vomit, they can't just expect their boyfriends best friend/partner to save them from dying even if they are standing right next to them when it happens. If that person chooses to let them die in order to advance his own financial interests...well, should have never picked up that needle.
 
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Put me up against life in prison and Id be snitching against a possibly dying of cancer meth cooking killer any day. Of course everything inside me is rooting for Walt and wants to see him and his family slip off to a wonderful life in Switzerland or someplace and of course Im pissed at Jesse but in all reality if I were Jesse I wouldnt be takin the fall and Walt would be.
 
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Put me up against life in prison and Id be snitching against a possibly dying of cancer meth cooking killer any day. Of course everything inside me is rooting for Walt and wants to see him and his family slip off to a wonderful life in Switzerland or someplace and of course Im pissed at Jesse but in all reality if I were Jesse I wouldnt be takin the fall and Walt would be.
But Jesse is not doing this to save himself. If he did, I'd understand the negative reactions. His motives are not selfish. He genuinely belives that Walt needs to be stopped.
 
Jesse wouldn't have life if it weren't for Walt. He'd be in a grave. Twice at least (Crazy 8 in the pilot and the two guys Walt ran over in season 3).

eta: also less dramatically in box cutter, Walt tells Gus he'll stop cooking if Gus kills Jesse.
 
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My point is he will get his dues whether you snitch on him or not. Karma exists. I knows its all fiction, but i mean if it was IRL karma exists and is one hell of a bitch.

Sorry i was rude in my earlier message ireacted stupidly. But the dealers is putting his ass on the line to supply one g of blow, you get caught and you gon snitch on him for that? And yeah, walt did all this shit to jesse, but jesse should deal with it like a man and not a coward. Snitching is the easy and nasty way out. He should kill him and take care of it like a man. Im not following the ''Snitches get stitches'' way, its just a moral principle of mine to not rat. Exceptions being Serial killers who kill INNOCENT people. THe majority of people who walt killed werent innocent, they knew there were risks to what they were doing and they knew they could get popped one day.

Mike was a killer, he got killed, GUs was a killer, he got killed.Tuco was a killer, he got killed. ETC. Its Karma. Eventually walt is gonna get his. ANd saying Walter is DIRECTLY responsible for the airplane crash is a bit of a stretch dont you think? I mean its the guy whose daughter jane dide who is responsible. Its his stupid ass'es fault all those people died. He knew he was emotanionally unstable and unfocused, he couldve skipped that day at work, but he still went and its his fault everybody died. Not walts.

As for brock walt had to do evil to get rid of a bigger evil. He knew brock wouldnt die. Walt never killed a child. Gus did. Gus had to die. Its all very fucking simple to me. As the bombing of the nursing home. Walt knew the bomb wouldnt kill anybody outside of the three people it was supossed to kill. Walt isnt as evil as people make him out to be. Jesse on the other hand is whinny little bitch who cant stop whining, while he knew there would be deaths and all getting into the bussiness with walt. Shit making meth is not exactly good for people is it. Jesse can deal with it like a man and attack walt. Instead of being a bitch and going to the DEA. IMO.


Read what i wrote above. By the way, You mad much?

I understand what you mean now much better. Thanks for explaining.

As Mandark alludes to above, Breaking Bad is the hottest show on television partially because it evokes reactions and discussions like these. One of the chief ways it achieves this is by having its characters progress through a broad range of moral culpability in different contexts within the story, which viewers often form conflicting judgments about. You’ve brought up the plane disaster, for instance, which brilliantly illustrates Walt’s indirect role in the story’s greatest single tragedy.

It’s true that Walt is not fully responsible for the deaths of the plane’s passengers, but he certainly is not innocent of them either. The disaster emphasized one of the show’s major chemistry-related themes: collateral damage ensuing by chain-reaction from sinful choices. This is where the role of “the eye” we saw depicted so many times figures into things. It can be interpreted various ways – the eye of god, of moral truth, of conscience – but in all of these cases it serves to demonstrate Walt’s unquestionable awareness that what he is doing is wrong.

The reason Walt is inarguably a bad person is that we’ve been shown he never had to do any of what he has done. We learned early on that his former business partners were magnanimously willing to pay for his cancer treatment and aid his family in the event of his death. But Walt rejected their kindness and chose not to seek assistance out of pride and spite – two further sins. He never had to deal drugs at all. We’ve been shown he is an extremely intelligent and resourceful man, fully capable of finding financial success through less unscrupulous means if that is what he desires. Entering the violent drug trade and destroying the community in the process is Walt’s way of taking vengeance on the world in reaction to the slights he perceives it has dealt him, a perception he only harbors because he refuses to humble himself, grow as a person, and move on with his life. Marie’s observation that if all Walt truly cares about is his family and believes he will inevitably die from cancer then he should just kill himself is a brutal but valid point.

Walt rationalizes that he planned the detonation that killed Gus to only be large enough to take out three people, but he didn’t know it, just as he didn’t know that the car bomb he had planted wouldn’t kill innocent passersby he didn’t see in the parking garage, or that Brock wouldn’t die from the poison. Walt’s willingness to throw innocent lives away to protect himself is clearly illustrated in his request to his neighbor that she enter his house when he suspects a trap of some sort may be waiting inside.

I’ll grant you that the fact that certain characters who have died who were “in the game,” such a Mike, were aware of the risks involved is a relevant consideration, but I certainly don’t think that that exonerates Walt of their murders. In his role as a flawed but wise “elder,” Mike (probably my favorite character) laid the truth about Walt’s pride bare during their last meeting in the desert, and, once again, it was Walt’s refusal to accept that truth that motivated him to sin, carrying him one step further down the road of irredeemability.
 
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Lets not forget how season two started, with Walt telling Jesse that he only needed $737,000 to provide EVERYTHING for his family



I really have no problem with Jesse turning to the DEA. It's really not him "snitching" in any form of the word, it's him trying to give Walt the WORST possible punishment ANYONE can have. Slowly dying of cancer in prison. He truly believes he deserves it, and I can't say he's wrong. I'm sure Jesse doesn't even want to KILL Walt, it's not good enough for him.... so he thinks, at least.



I'm thinking that firefight is going to end with no casualties as well.. I mean, if Hank was going to die I don't think they would have had the firefight where hundreds of rounds were fired everywhere but where Hank and Gomie were :\ It was pretty ridiculous though, considering they were probably more likely to hit Walt than Hank 8)


Walt and Jesse always were so loyal to each other though, I don't think that bond is entirely broken either. I'll have to say it surprised me that Walt didn't want Hank killed, I really thought that was going to complete his transformation. Although it may still happen, with that chain-reaction theme playing in again that brings Walt deeper into his own mess than he anticipated. If Hank does die though Marie is going to go BAT SHIT, not something I look forward to 8)





Also:

tumblr_mlf5bszQir1qzlc1ro1_400.gif


:D
 
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I was pretty pissed with that cliffhanger too. It's not like we weren't going to watch next weeks episode already.

I so thought that either Hank and/or Gomez was going to just get a sudden bullet through the head. Then when those guys all just rolled up and had that ridiculous fire fight.. (how the hell did they not hit hank and gomez once with alllll thoseeee guns, and the fact they weren't even behind cover when they started firing!?)

But, after Jesse and Hanks douche-bagness last episode, I'm now totally okay with both of them getting killed.

Dude, so did I. When Hank made the phone call I was expecting him to get taken out by one of Todds guys with a sniper. Either way once the scene slowed down I knew the crew was still going to show up.

I'm thinking that they kill at least one of them, and Walter gets pissed off since he was telling them "no" and tries to get revenge later on, which is why he gets that M60. Everyone was wondering why he needed such a powerful gun when they showed that flash forward, and after seeing that shoot-out scene it's clear that he would need something big to go up against Todds uncle and friends.
 
I understand what you mean now much better. Thanks for explaining.

As Mandark alludes to above, Breaking Bad is the hottest show on television partially because it evokes reactions and discussions like these. One of the chief ways it achieves this is by having its characters progress through a broad range of moral culpability in different contexts within the story, which viewers often form conflicting judgments about. You’ve brought up the plane disaster, for instance, which brilliantly illustrates Walt’s indirect role in the story’s greatest single tragedy.

It’s true that Walt is not fully responsible for the deaths of the plane’s passengers, but he certainly is not innocent of them either. The disaster emphasized one of the show’s major chemistry-related themes: collateral damage ensuing by chain-reaction from sinful choices. This is where the role of “the eye” we saw depicted so many times figures into things. It can be interpreted various ways – the eye of god, of moral truth, of conscience – but in all of these cases it serves to demonstrate Walt’s unquestionable awareness that what he is doing is wrong.

The reason Walt is inarguably a bad person is that we’ve been shown he never had to do any of what he has done. We learned early on that his former business partners were magnanimously willing to pay for his cancer treatment and aid his family in the event of his death. But Walt rejected their kindness and chose not to seek assistance out of pride and spite – two further sins. He never had to deal drugs at all. We’ve been shown he is an extremely intelligent and resourceful man, fully capable of finding financial success through less unscrupulous means if that is what he desires. Entering the violent drug trade and destroying the community in the process is Walt’s way of taking vengeance on the world in reaction to the slights he perceives it has dealt him, a perception he only harbors because he refuses to humble himself, grow as a person, and move on with his life. Marie’s observation that if all Walt truly cares about is his family and believes he will inevitably die from cancer then he should just kill himself is a brutal but valid point.

Walt rationalizes that he planned the detonation that killed Gus to only be large enough to take out three people, but he didn’t know it, just as he didn’t know that the car bomb he had planted wouldn’t kill innocent passersby he didn’t see in the parking garage, or that Brock wouldn’t die from the poison. Walt’s willingness to throw innocent lives away to protect himself is clearly illustrated in his request to his neighbor that she enter his house when he suspects a trap of some sort may be waiting inside.

I’ll grant you that the fact that certain characters who have died who were “in the game,” such a Mike, were aware of the risks involved is a relevant consideration, but I certainly don’t think that that exonerates Walt of their murders. In his role as a flawed but wise “elder,” Mike (probably my favorite character) laid the truth about Walt’s pride bare during their last meeting in the desert, and, once again, it was Walt’s refusal to accept that truth that motivated him to sin, carrying him one step further down the road of irredeemability.

Dude are you a writer for this show or a Doctor of Sociology? Jimminy Cricketts you break it down. The eyeball, good analogy. among all your other points.
 
Dude are you a writer for this show or a Doctor of Sociology? Jimminy Cricketts you break it down. The eyeball, good analogy. among all your other points.
Thanks for asking. I’m flattered! But no, I’m neither of those things – just another guy with a liberal arts master’s degree who’s underemployed, heh. EVERYBODY is watching Breaking Bad right now, which is one of the great morality tales of our time, and it’s not every day I have the chance to have a globally accessible discussion about symbolism and ethics with the equivalent of two stadiums at capacity looking on (this thread currently has 94,262 views), so I thought it was worth the effort. In fact, calling my own attention to those numbers now, I sort of regret not writing sober, heh.
 
You're saying they made Jesse a weenie and a rat to cater to female viewers?

I can't really argue with that. But do you deny that the creative decision to have Jesse eat cheese was meant to alienate him from male viewers (who likely comprise the majority of BB's audience)?

Nor is the repudiation of police collaborators unique to the young and/or urban demographic. Is Pacino's character in Scent of a Woman as much of a caricature as Riley from Boondocks?



ETA: It's not lost on me that the usual calculus of sympathy is confounded here. We're talking about a show that has managed to get many of its viewers to root for neo-Nazis. See for instance:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903747/board/flat/219471551

Yes, I deny that the show's writers intend to alienate Jesse from male viewers. I believe Jesse continues to be perceived by many viewers as a tragic sympathetic character. The bond between Jesse and Walt was contingent on Jesse's belief that Walt entered the drug trade to provide for his family upon his death from cancer because he had no other recourse. Jesse no longer has any reason to believe that, so that bond has been severed. Jesse now wants to stop Walt in order to redeem himself, even if it means allying with Hank, who Jesse hates.

I've not seen Scent of a Woman, but I did read a plot summary of it in an attempt to understand the context of that clip and I'm not sure what your intent is in bringing it up as it regards the insult to moral integrity that snitching is comparable to in the context of Breaking Bad. In Scent of a Woman, the jury is tasked with deciding whether Charlie's refusal to inform on his classmates regarding their role in a class prank makes him worthy of exoneration or condemnation given that the intent of a college education is to prepare him for the realities of manhood. Whereas in Breaking Bad, the concern is with informing on someone guilty of poisoning children, murder, and the reckless endangerment of innocents. I just don't see where the magnitude of what's in question, the motivation to "snitch," is comparable. As profoundly misguided an organization as I believe the D.E.A. is, I don't believe the people who comprise it, for the most part, are uniformly immoral, just like I don't think Hank is really a bad guy. I don't think Jesse's cooperation with Hank somehow transfers all the injustice that the D.E.A. has been culpable for throughout its history to Jesse. Jesse is just using what means are available to him to stop a bad person. It has almost nothing to do with our individual right to use drugs or the drug war in my mind. This goes back to what I posted about earlier: morality has to do with the acts of rational actors -- that is, individuals, not values we ascribe to organizations/companies/police brigades/historical forces, etc., which are mere generalizations.

As for that IMDB thread, I don't know for sure, but I suspect some thread titles attract posters who conduct themselves in the manner people in The Lounge do here -- they sort of just piss air for conversation. I'm basing my feeling about what the general publics' reaction to Jesse is partially on how I've seen people react while we watched it together, as their responses have corroborated my own impressions for the most part.
For some reason I thought you were a scientist.

I think I've conflated you with Scureto1.
I have a bachelors in physical psychology, and I've gone through about 70 percent of the course work required to obtain two scientific doctoral degrees in addition to my liberal arts degree, which probably comes through in my posts. I like learning for learning's sake, to a fault.
 
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Whereas in Breaking Bad, the concern is with informing on someone guilty of poisoning children, murder, and the reckless endangerment of innocents.

Jesse clearly did not read the job description for International Methamphetamine Trafficker.

I think what I personally can't forgive Jesse for is his betrayal to Walt. You just don't turn in somebody who's risked life, limb and fortune to save your ass over and over and over again. This amount of loyalty and devotion is very rare. Most people will completely abandon you upon discovery of your addiction.

I suspect that betrayal hurts Walt as much as the potential loss of his fortune.
 
Jesse clearly did not read the job description for International Methamphetamine Trafficker.

I think what I personally can't forgive Jesse for is his betrayal to Walt. You just don't turn in somebody who's risked life, limb and fortune to save your ass over and over and over again. This amount of loyalty and devotion is very rare. Most people will completely abandon you upon discovery of your addiction.

I suspect that betrayal hurts Walt as much as the potential loss of his fortune.
I think I understand what you mean. I agree that there is a genuine sort of father/son relationship and loyalty between Walt and Jesse. The truth of this was revealed when Walt's tongue slipped and he accidentally referred to Walt Jr. as "Jesse." I think Walt still has genuine feelings of love and respect for Hank, too. He's vacillated back and forth throughout the story. Some of what he does for others is still uncalculated. Walt has rationalized his bad behavior not just to others but to himself as well. I don't deny that Walt was once simply a misguided and prideful but otherwise alright person who deserved pity more than disgust. It's just that it's been shown that his priorities lay with his pride and he's allowed that to motivate him to manipulate these other characters in ways that are clearly detrimental to their well being. His cancer is the physical manifestation of a sickness of his soul that was conceived in Walt's initial self-pity, resentment, and refusal to grow, and so instead it has grown into a malignant force consuming his better nature. That's part of how he is "breaking bad." It's all part of the tragedy of the story for me.

It's true that Walt risked much to save Jesse, but it's also true that he risked much to keep Jesse for his own selfish designs long after it was clear it was doing Jesse far more harm than good. I don't think of Jesse as signing up for international methamphetamine trafficker in one step. I think of him as an ignorant low-level hood rat glass slinger whose mother didn't hold him enough as a child and who blindly trusted "Mr. White" because Walt is an adult authority figure to him. Jesse wasn't perceptive enough to see through to Walt's overriding selfish motives as he was slowly manipulated into a position he never expected to be in, and that's not really his fault so much as it is part of an in-born limitation that Walt knowingly exploited. To me, that's why he has persisted in calling Walt "Mr. White" even after he, in many ways, became Walt's equal in their business relationship. He's really still a misguided child whose true motivation is an innocent craving for love and acceptance. That's why I think he's intended to be felt sorry for. Over and over again, his reactions to things have struck me as the reactions of an abused child, whereas Walt's reactions have increasingly been those of a coldly calculating narcissistic psychopath who, despite his extreme intelligence, does not possess the wisdom to see beyond himself. Walt betrayed Jesse in unforgivable ways numerous times before Jesse finally became disillusioned and turned on him.
 
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