Is suboxone worth it?

[mrs_mia_wallace]

OK, so I have been on suboxone for what feels like forever now...two and a half years. Christ. I have been a heroin user for a while, one and off for about seven years. I smoked it for a long time and then started shooting it about two years ago.

I went to rehab and they detoxed me using something else-- I did well for about 9 months, and then I relapsed. I was really freaked out about going through withdrawl again because when I did it in rehab they didn't use subs or methadone so it was fucking horrible, I didn't sleep for longer than 15 minutes for 5 days, so I basically said I wasn't going to do it without suboxone. I assumed I would just be on it for a week or so but the Dr. I saw wanted me to go on it and just see how I did. I saw him for about nine months, and he was a really great Dr, I stayed totally sober that whole time, but then it turned out he was ripping me off (charging me for non-existent sessions) so I've gone through a couple non-addiction specialists since then, just general Drs that can prescribe suboxone, and I've basically just been switching back and forth from subs for the last year and a half.

I used to combine the subs and the heroin-- I would wait 20 hours before taking the dose, then wait five or seven hours after to go back on the subs, and it was great, I was never in withdrawl and it stopped me from using a lot, it was just something I would do to relax 2-3 times a week. Then six months ago I realized I could get higher if I just went off the subs for a period of 3-4 days (sometimes a week) so the subs were totally out of my system. That has totally fucked me up. And I use in places I would never have used then-- at work, with friend who don't use, at school (all day, basically-- it's so, so much easier for me to get out of bed if I know I'm going to be able to get high, so for a while if I had to be up early, it was a good way to make sure I got up-- now its hard for me to convince myself to wake up at 2pm without heroin). Now I basically go through full heroin withdrawl once a week before I can take the subs, and I feel like withdrawl has gotten so much worse than it was 3 years ago. Sometimes I only stay on the subs for a day, sometimes a week-- but even when I'm on the subs I don't feel good. They make me feel super jittery and SO SO anxious, almost like I'm high on a stimulants but in a bad way. And I almost always feel sick for the first day, sometimes the second. And I can't anything. I was sober for about three weeks a few months back, and I lost 11 pounds.

I just feel like this is not working, and it has become totally unmanageble-- I mean, this is absolutely ludicrous, heroin withdrawal every fucking week? What is the point? I just spent three fucking hours in the bathtub because it was the only place in my house that a)the material didn't hurt me skin and b) I didn't feel hot and super sweaty one second and freezing cold in my sweat the next-- and I've missed work or been late I don't know how many times in just the past six weeks because of this shit. But compared to the way my life was three/four years ago, things are infinitely better. I'm on speaking terms with my parents, I have a job that does involve me working at a strip club and hating myself, and I'm about to graduate from college. I just feel like things could be infinitely worse, and maybe this is as good as my life gets-- maybe suboxone is the one thing that keeps me from going completely off the rails. My Dr. is totally adamant that I should not even think about coming off it anytime soon.

I'm sorry this is so long, I'm rambling. I just don't know what to do.

 

[twotoomany]

The problem isn't the subs, its the bouncing back and forth. I think you need to either try to stick with it for a while, or wait until you're truly ready to be clean. My advice is to stay on the subs, stay off the H. I know, easier said than done, but it seems like you know what you have to lose if you backslide into your old ways.

I used subs to do a quick taper and get off opiates, so your situation is a little different, but it sounds like they aren't helping with your cravings/making it worse. What dose are you on if subs, and how much dope are you shooting?

 

[mrs_mia_wallace]

I take between eight and sixteen mgs of subs a day, and shoot between .six and .eight-- my number aren't working sorry-- a day.

They're not doing shit for my cravings, and honestly sometimes I feel like they make me feel worse-- I feel like everyone always says they don't feel high but they feel normal and good on subs, I do not feel that anymore. I used to feel good on subs, I mean when I first went on them I was falling asleep all the time and getting pissed off because I was so hungry, and then I just felt normal-- so to suddenly go to this super anxious, jittery state of lack of hunger, is just totally bizarre to me. And I talk a mile a minute on them to, I can feel I'm annoying the people around me. It's like being on a stimulant but only getting the annoying side effects. Do you think that's related to the switching?

 

[RTrain]

I have bounced back and forth a good amount of times over the past...6 months maybe. Every time I went back to Subs it was more difficult. Less and less did it mask the withdrawal. My plan was kind of like yours, I started wanting to use Subs through the week and then H on weekend. But with each switch I found it harder to get back on Subs, and eventually I was going over a week with H and just a few days with Subs, until payday of course. Some weeks I'd do some stupid stuff to avoid having to make the switch because I was still feeling awful after taking Subs and the blockade pissed me off. I did just get back on Subs and have been for 11 days now, and I can say the cravings are pretty bad.

All I can suggest to you is cutting the dose, 8-16 mgs might be necessary for the first 2-3 days off a full agonist, but after that you can cut back to 3-4 mgs. Most recently I started taking 6-8 but by day 4 was taking 4 mg and have been steady at 3-4 mgs since then. It seems the majority of people with side effects from the drug are using 8 or more mgs a day. Just do a google search and you will see a lot of people advocating the less is more philosophy with Subs. You really are not getting anymore out of taking more than 4 mgs/day due to the ceiling effect, it just lasts longer. For me 2 mg a day taking in morning and late afternoon works well. I metabolize pretty fast so I need the second dose to sleep soundly. Honestly I think 4 mgs/day is too much for maintenance and my desire is to get down to 2 mg a day as soon as possible. The only benefit in higher doses is the blockade effect, but obviously that is not preventing you from using so its pointless anyway. And the cravings are just going to be there. Like is so often said the mind takes much much longer than the body to heal; in other words: you are physically fine after a few days but the mind F of needing to use is clearly going to be there. Try keeping yourself busy because for me in my idle time all I do is crave, but if I am occupied with something its a lot easier.

 

[mrs_mia_wallace]

I hear what you're saying-- I usually take a lot the first couple days I'm getting back on it because I'm just sweating, yawning, and getting chills all over the place, and then once that goes down, I cut down to about eight mgs. I guess I just feel like if I take less than that, I start to get sick-- I get start to sneeze, yawn, sweat, etc. Another weird thing I've noticed is how my withdrawl symptoms have changed over the years... I used to get constant body aches, and I don't get those anymore. But seriously give me that over the hot/cold changes and chills anyday.

A part of me thinks it would be better for me to just get off the subs entirely, because it would make me have to choose between using heroin and not using heroin, and not living in this limbo, where I can use and sort of get out of having to deal with the stress of having to have heroin everyday or go into withdrawal... I just don't know if it would be too hard for me.

I know the last six months have not been great either, and that that's partly related to it-- my boyfriend and I broke up over Christmas, my parents got divorced and my dad is marrying a woman my age in a few weeks, I moved to LA with my mom where I hardly know anybody, don't like it, and don't have much of a life here... I feel like my life has become more unmanageable emotionally and that's translated to me becoming more dependent on the H. And my parents response to their divorce is to just throw throw money at me, which doesn't really help when it comes to drugs.

 

[alovesupreme]

this happened to my girl, she switched back and forth from subs to dope so many times and in doing so "something happened" and now it seems she cannot do the switch at all any more, taking the sub gave no relief to her, in fact, she felt it made her feel worse... even after she was 24, 36 hours out from her last shot of dope, like in severe WDs already... she felt hopeless and we thought and thought about a solution and eventually she decided to go with MMT... since it is a full agonist, switching was painless and easy and she's very comfortable and stable on it, and no cravings at all. i think for some methadone has this kind of stigma compared to subs but maybe it is something you could consider... it was a huge win for my girl and it helps a lot of people... don't believe the bad rap it gets.

my opinion is all very subjective and involves a sample size of one but my feeling is once this "something happens" there isn't any way you can go back to where you were with subs. we tried low dose very graduated inductions, bolus inductions, waiting very long time prior to induction... nothing worked. i think she would have to have been all the way through dope WDs anyway to have been able to take subs without discomfort.

 

[mrs_mia_wallace]

i would go on methadone.. I just a) hate the idea of having to go to a clinic everyday, I can do that right now but once I go back to school/work in the fall, it becomes very difficult-- I've never found a Dr who would give me a script for it-- and b) I don't want to be high everyday, if I do that I might as well just be on heroin. I've never been on methadone but my brother is a junkie too, and when I was little he went on methadone tons of times, I think it was pre-subs, and I just remember him constantly nodding off at the dinner table and really freaking me out. Does methadone do blockage?

 

[RTrain]

I believe with methadone it only blocks if you are on enough to fill all the receptors. And I hear you about the whole visiting a clinic every day, I couldn't even do that if I wanted to because of the hours I work. Also any job that drug tests will test for methadone, its on the simplest test, a 5-panel. Bupre is only tested for on like 12 or 13 panels, very rarely used.

I just was wondering one thing regarding how you are bouncing back from Subs to H and vice versa. Over the past 3 months or so what is the longest amount of time you spent solely on H? This may seem backwards, but what might be the best thing for you is a long stint on heroin, then trying to get back on the subs. Because the switching thing seems to have some messed up effects on the opiate receptors. I think I will do some research on the subject, I know I have before and there is enough anecdotal info regarding the switch being harder the more its done. But it could be useful to not use subs for a while and see if you can return the ability for subs to help you. I have no facts here so don't just go do this based on my theory, I will try to find some facts or at least experiences to back up the theory?

 

[thesameoldfears]

Girl I'm dealing with the same shit. I've gone on and off suboxone at minimum once a month for the past 16 months. Last month the switch was rough, but I could function. This month, I waited two days and I could not get rid of the sick for even a second. I took 8mg the first day, which is waaay more than I've taken in awhile. And I still felt sick. And I took about 6mg the next day, still sick. So today I caved and did some heroin, and it got me not only feeling well, but high. I don't understand. Before that much would have me beyond feeling well, not high, but not sick, and would allow me to sleep. AND - it would block the full effects of dope for several days. Especially with repeated dosing, it could take up to 5 days to get high. But now, 48 hours after 8mg and 36 hours after another 6mg, and I could get high.


I am at a total loss of what to do. I can't keep on like this. I don't have the money to stay on dope all the time. My doctor knows I've relapsed a few times but he doesn't know how often I've been switching. But what's the point of me being on subs if they can't even make me feel okay?

My nearest methadone clinic is an hour away and has a daily cost, I'd be paying literally 50x what I. Am for suboxone maintenance. And I'm on disability so I have a super limited income.

I don't know what to do! How do you get back to the point where suboxone "works" again? Sorry fo derailing your thread a bit mrs mia but I'm in the same boat and feeling totally lost. I know what you mean about the bath though, seems it's the only place that I feel okay anymore.

 

[opiatekrzy]

suboxone only works for those who truely dont want to ever go back to using opiates...alot of ppl use suboxone as a deterrent to avoid WD when they run out of heroin (opiates), and party without consequences, some sell them, and end up doing opiates (like myself) or ended up switching to crack..im on subs now, just got of MMT, can honestly say im not ready, already fucking up

 

[mrflowers00]

subs arn't made to let you get high and take the easy way around the wds when you run out every time it's meant to get you off completely otherwise your wasting how well the bupe could have made you feel during wds when you were actually ready to quit but i do the same shit i shoot up dope till it's all gone then just on subs till a few days before i can get more

 

[opiatekrzy]

exactly. the bupe tends to give me anxiety, causes irritability, and sometimes just down right i feel lethargic and anti social, i tend to take naps, or isolate,, usually only when i take more then 8mgs a day...anyhting more than 4mg at once gives me negative effects.

 

[DrinksWithEvil]

In reality if you want to quit bad enough, you will no matter what. The worst WD in the world wouldnt change your mind about quitting. The truth is most of us dont want to truly give up opiates FOREVER

 

[RTrain]

suboxone only works for those who truely dont want to ever go back to using opiates...alot of ppl use suboxone as a deterrent to avoid WD when they run out of heroin (opiates), and party without consequences, some sell them, and end up doing opiates (like myself) or ended up switching to crack..im on subs now, just got of MMT, can honestly say im not ready, already fucking up

I hear you there. I started back up on them 15 days ago and I am in a state of mental limbo. I had been using them for about 5 months here and there to get through times I couldn't afford the other stuff. This is the longest I have used them in a while. But I constantly am telling myself this is just temporary and I will be back on H once I settle my credit debt and save up some money. Then next thing you know I am thinking about how I need to stay focused on the Subs and stay clean for the job I want which will hair follicle test me if I get called for an interview. Its tough, I don't have the desire to not use, I just don't have the money. There is 0 chance I would be on subs right now if not for financial reasons and I think that is clearly a bad recipe for staying clean because there will be a time I do have the money.

I basically feel I could relapse any day. I crave every day, especially in the morning when I have the lowest level of sub in my system. Some mornings I convince myself I will screw up that night, but once the sub kicks in I forget about it. Over the past 2 yrs I have relapsed at least 5 times, 3 times from being truly clean and probably about 2 from using subs for an extended period (that is at least a few weeks). And we all know history tends to repeat itself, and the more so the more likely.

^ exactly Drinks, in the back of your mind you always figure you can live that life again. The only thing that would stop it is if it were not available, and being resourceful addicts we tend to find a way to get high.

 

[thesameoldfears]

Well I'm not saying I'm usiing subs "the right way", or that it's their fault that I'm sick, I'm just trying to grasp why this happens. What chemically is going on differently than before that makes switching so much harder now?

Part of me desperately wants to be clean, part of me doesn't. But I feel like regardless of that the subs should either work - that is greatly reduce withdrawal symptoms and fill up opiate receptors - or not. Why did they used to work, and don't now? Why could I get high after 14mg of subs when before it would have taken days for all of that to get off my receptors? I feel like I'm in a never ending cycle unless I. Can figure out how to effectively induce back on subs again.

 

[opiatekrzy]

we all fall victim of using suboxone for the wrong reasons, or with reservations. i was on Methadone Maintenance for one year, i was up to 130mg, and i can say i wasnt high at all, i felt nothing from it, maybe in my head i would say to myself "ahh i just drank 130mg of sweet strong methadone, this is my wake up for the day" thats as far as it went, maybe a boost of energy in the morning it gave me, the side effects were awful. i gained tons of weight, i weighed 140lbs when i got on it, and i just got off of it 48 days ago and i weigh 180. i would sweat literally by just making my bed, and get hot flashes. i would wake up in the middle of the night eating all the junk food and sweeets. now i dont even eat sweets. i switched to suboxone, and i hate it. i hated being on methadone and all i wanted was to get off of it and switch, now that im actually off of it, i wanna be back on methadone, im fuckng up on suboxone, this drug is not new to me, i was RXed it for 5yrs on and off, here i am now, selling my subs, skipping doses to use opiates, and feeling like crap. on methadone i knew i COULDNT GET HIGH NO MATTER WHAT, because no matter how much dope i did, it didnt compete with the 130mg, and the mental cravings vannished, now that i have the willpower to stop suboxone, or take 8mg in the early AM, and still be able to get high on dope later that day...this stuff is ruining me. im trying to get back on methadone, the reason i got off of it cuz i was scared for my life, i became a benzo junkie hardcore on it, i was eating 4-8bars of xanax a day, or klonopin, i was at the point where i was in bed by 4pm, and my dad constantly kicking me in the middle of the night to make sure i was alive still...maybe maintenance just aint for me at all..im poly addicted..im trapped and i been for 15yrs, i dont see an escape yet..of course i wanna quit, and i have calmed down a lot, and i can say no to shooting dope when i used to not be able to, same with crack, but still my life is unmanagable and a mess. sorry this post didnt go to the dark side...suboxone is a recipe for disaster for poly addicted opiate addicts..most ppl i know on subs, end up picking up a benzo habit, or end up smoking crack and selling all they're subs, or shooting dope, such as myself along with many others..i dont think suboxone is right for me, methadone isnt because i turn into a zombie taking benzos trying to chase a high thats not there. even on 130mg, i could eat 10 methadone pill son top of that and FEEL NO BUZZ, all receptors saturated. plus i was having involunatry leg and arm movements at sleep on methadone, jerking, nightmares, idk...

 

[thesameoldfears]

^ yeah I've used more benzos the past couple months trying to be on subs than my whole life. I can't get well enough on just subs to get any peace or sleep without taking some benzos, and I can already feel my tolerance rising and it's scary. Especially with benzos being soooo cheap compared to opiates where I live. I had a nice little stash of benzos that people just gave me for free and now they're almost all gone because I want to take one to sleep every night and one to get rid of the panic when I wake up. Ugh.

 

[DrinksWithEvil]

If you don't want to truly quit then you won't.

 

[opiatekrzy]

thats why i feel addiction is truely a disease, it affects millions of people the same exact way, same consequences, same lifestyle, same thinking pattern. I believe we do want to quit, but have this impulse and lack of self control that causes relapses, even when one is clean for 15yrs, and all of a sudden relapses, its def. a disorder. *my opinion*. i DO want to quit, but at the same time i forget bout quitting when i get the impulse to get high, but over the years i have been better able to control myself, but i still suffer from poor impulses. addiction is ugly, i just get bored being sober, and doing the same routine everyday, and i watch all the "normal" people being content with there day to day life, same shit diff. day, and they still seem to get adrenaline or a rush out of living the next day, me- i know what tomorroiw will bring, being sober, working, taking care of my kids=never ending stress-and i want excitement, and to kill the stress...im an addict, and my brain is wired different,. i envy normal people who aren't addicts, like my big brother, married, white picket fence, etc..but me, the youngest, the bad apple..talk about a bad hand of cards! (humor)

 

[BeardScraper]

In reality if you want to quit bad enough, you will no matter what. The worst WD in the world wouldnt change your mind about quitting. The truth is most of us dont want to truly give up opiates FOREVER

totally agree with you there. i cant picture myself without them forever. for the longest time that is my motivation to do anything, thats my light at the end of the tunnel, the end of the work week, the end of the day. i should have plenty other things to look forward to, but the opiates have brainwashed me.