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Is 2C-B "more synthetic" than LSD? (eye roll)

Technically Yes!! But at the end of the day .. everything that exists IS natural!! ....

Technically how? Neither is found in nature, both were invented by modifying compounds that do exist in nature. Ignoring the fact that it truly makes not an iota of difference whether it is found in nature or was invented / whether its synthesized in a lab or biosynthesized in a plant cell, I still don't see a distinction between them. They're both inventions, neither of which was subsequently found in a plant or fungus.
 
I don't know if there would be enough room there for the bromine. Look up 'steric bulk', as I could be wrong. I'm not an expert here (on steric bulk), chem major or not, but my gut and what training I do have says that either there's simply just not enough room so it couldn't exist, or that it could theoretically exist but that the synthesis would be just too absurdly difficult / that it would be too unfavorable of a product in the reaction, yielding garbage substitutions you don't want and little if any of what you do want.

Maybe there's enough room there for a chlorine? I mean, it would certainly be more likely than bromine, chlorine being smaller, but I still couldn't say for sure if even the 4-chloro version could exist.

Actually the compound I mentioned has already been made. The effects are unknown however. It is mentioned in Pihkal. Now if only China will catch up, we might get a taste.
 
What's the difference between a substance which is synthesised by Mimosa hostilis and one that's synthesised by Homo sapiens?

I, for one, hold out hope 2C-B is found in the ocean. Maybe even 2C-C also...I mean they both feel pretty damn 'natural' to me.

I can't for the life of me work out why something that "feels natural" would be any more or less likely to exist in nature. Unless there is a specific physical structure shared by all naturally occurring compounds and absent in all synthetic compounds which our brains have evolved to differentiate.
 
Actually the compound I mentioned has already been made. The effects are unknown however. It is mentioned in Pihkal. Now if only China will catch up, we might get a taste.

Hah I happily stand corrected then!

It's funny, when I was writing that I was thinking to myself that I had read a mention about that in PIHKaL but put it down to overly-tired imaginings, go figure.
 
It really depends on how you look at it. From a sort of homeopathy-philosophical point of view I don't believe there exists any difference between for example psilocin that is made synthetically or psilocin derived from mushrooms, as long as they are both actually pure. I don't believe in any retention of molecular memory, that is all esoteric nonsense to me and positive research results on it have been debunked as fake bs.
This sort of thing is typically referred to by saying things like LSD = LSD = LSD, the same holds for compounds.

From a production point of view LSD is different from 2C-B indeed, in that LSD is semi-synthetic and 2C-B is synthetic. The source for LSD is typically ergot alkaloids which are produced naturally as organic compounds. Synthetic compounds like 2C-B are produced from chemical precursors which are produced from chemical precursors before that, all the way until you follow the source chain to various organic and inorganic base materials that are typically extremely simple - like the most rudimentary acids, gases and salts. Those simple building blocks say nothing about the compound ultimately made from it, if the entire synthesis is considered (which is long and complex).
LSD could be produced entirely synthetically as well I guess but it is much more simple not to, the difference would again be zero like the difference I just mentioned with psilocin. It is just that typically it is produced semi-synthetically.
It is certainly a difference but it does not really matter or have pertinent consequences.

One could argue that a compound being semi-synthetic indicates or implies that it is necessarily at least somewhat analogous to natural compounds, since it is made from that. The same is not necessarily true for compounds which are entirely synthetic like DXM. Based more or less on SAR theory people are typically more wary of random compounds produced synthetically that don't look like anything else we know. Because with so little to go on, there is that much more unknown about possible toxicity of the parent compound and its metabolites.
But the argument is not really valid here. 2C-B is an analogue of naturally occuring alkaloids like mescaline, even if 2C-B has no known or common synthesis route that uses such alkaloids as a source.

So a compound being semi-synthetic does at least indicate that it isn't a random scary freaky chem, but everyone should be careful making any assumptions because natural does not mean safe and the SAR paradox tells us that small differences made to a structure can have much bigger consequences than expected. So it is no proof of anything, a compound being semi-synthetic does not mean it must be safer.

I am explaining this so that we may better understand why people possibly think these distinctions can matter.
 
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The difference is just quasi hippy mumbo jumbo. Like solipsis said, I don't believe that a compound carries the memories if its source. Some compounds feel better than others because they are, not because of their source or production methods.
 
i love LSD and 2C-B, dont make me choose!

there are times where both can feel pretty unnatural, and there are times when i wish i felt that way all the time.

favorite psychedelics'd
 
Other than the impurities left over from synthesis, the precursors in a synthesis do not make the end product any different. A synthetic product is synthetic whether the precursors were natural products or synthetic ones.

You could even go as far as to argue that structurally something like 2C-B is closer in structure to Mescaline than LSD is to for example LSA, but that doesn't really matter or make one better than the other unless you want to argue that nature is better at developing interesting drugs than scientists, or vice versa.

The whole natural vs synthetic argument is rather silly, nature is made up of elements which bind together to form molecules, reactions to form new chemicals may happen as a result of a series of unintended events, or they can be purposefully carried out in a controlled manner. If the same reaction happened both in nature and in a lab, the end product would be the same substance.

What makes some people sway towards natural products in terms of their feel is more likely to be due to the fact that most psychoactive plants contain more than one substance that effects the experience, as scientists tend to favour isolating a single chemical to avoid unpredictable reactions between several chemicals and their effects on the human body/mind.
 
there is a large cave on a planet in another galaxy where massive 13 foot tall LSD crystals grow naturally
 
I agree fully with that argument, JG, but with this exception or additional remark:
We must remember that natural compounds often have the advantage that we at least tend to understand them just a little bit better because our history of research on them may go back a bit longer since they are readily available. With that information we can sometimes differentiate better between benign and malignant drugs, if only because we have observed effects in man for ages.

But this isn't necessarily of use and it can cloud our judgement. For example it wouldn't be fair to attribute too much of ergot poisoning to LSD intoxication. And it is not really an argument of much use here. Still in general it might be worth considering.
 
To elaborate on why it is meaningless whether a drug is formed inside a plant cell or a laboratory, it is useful to understand how chemical reactions work.

Briefly, stable combinations of atoms, which we call molecules, occupy sort of a low point of potential energy. The fancy word is minima, and you can think of the concept like this: imagine a heavy ball on one side of a hill. It is sitting there, happy to do nothing because it is at the lowest location in the immediate area. This corresponds to a stable chemical compound.

It happens though, that there may be another low spot on the other side of the hill. This corresponds to a different, also stable compound, that may be a rearrangement of the atoms in the first chemical or may involve atoms being lost or gained. We will refer to the first compound as the precursor, and the second as the product.

So how do you get the ball over the hill? Well, that's the issue at the beating heart of synthetic chemistry. In order for the ball to move over the hill, energy must be applied, and one method that can be used is to input that energy in the form of heat. You can conceptualize this as the work necessary to push the ball up to the top of the hill. Once you get over the highest point of the hill, the ball will roll down the second slope of its own accord. That hilltop is analogous to what chemists refer to as activation energy, the amount of energy necessary to get a reaction going.

So what does this have to do with 'natural' versus 'synthetic' chemicals?

It has to do with the methods used in the lab and in a plant/animal/fungus cell to synthesize something.

In a chem lab, we literally push the ball the whole damn way up the hill. We do this in any number of ways which I will not get into.

In a cell however, the environment is controlled so that homeostasis is retained. So the addition of certain potentially toxic compounds or solvents or the addition of many joules of heat is verboten. Instead, plants use enzymes. Enzymes are giant unwieldy complicated proteins that are all folded up into ridiculously complicated shapes. Somewhere in their structure they will have an active site, where the precursor can interact. And by interacting with the enzyme, the barrier of activation energy is reduced.

This is analogous to the enzyme being like 'naw, fuck tall, steep hills' and magically shrinking the entire hill. The highest point is now much lower than it was, although it still acts as a barrier in that it still needs some energy to get going, just less of it. This means that we don't need so much energy to push the ball up the hill, to rearrange or substitute or remove atoms to make the precursor into the product. And thus we don't need to put so much heat into the reaction to make it work, which would likely be energetically impossible or improbable for the organism the cell is a part of.

---

As you can see, these are two different methods, but they do the same thing: get the ball over the hump of the hill. In a lab with highly energetic methods of heating, we can pour energy into the reaction to our hearts' desires. But an animal or plant or fungus (or bacterium or archaea) with a certain budget for energy related to how much energy it's food contains this level of input isn't possible, so a way was found through evolution to shrink the hill so you don't need so much input.

Now for the caveats: this is an incredibly simplistic description. We chemists can also use methods other than best to improve the conditions for a reaction, like using bases to eliminate atoms via E1 or E2 mechanisms, and we can also use catalysts. Catalysis is what enzymes do, but we usually use inorganic stuff like aluminum or platinum instead of enzymes, for purposes like reductive animation or catalytic hydrogenation. Also the hill in real life isn't always smooth, usually there are transition states, which are like plateaus on the hill that correspond to states in between the precursor and the product.

But there is no caveat relating to what enzymes do in organisms or we do in the lab. It is literally the same thing. Two different methods no doubt, but the same starting and ending points. This is why you can make be same drug in a lab as in a cell. If there was something unique to either environment then you wouldn't be able to produce the product both ways, and we can in fact produce it both ways.
 
This discussion came up on The Shroomery.

This tells you all that you need to know. The people at that site don't really know their stuff and some of them obsess over brands of LSD and thumbprints as though it's complete truth when it's fiction.
 
I've been told by a few knowledgeable and trustworthy sources, haven't found anything online..though I don't really try to find things online due to the probable nature of it being way off base..that Hoffman was researching a particular acid that is developed in the human brain from birth till about age 5-8. It's deemed responsible for burning through tissue to help develop sensory sites, if not responsible for it.

This tells you all that you need to know. The people at that site don't really know their stuff and some of them obsess over brands of LSD and thumbprints as though it's complete truth when it's fiction.

I'm pretty sure the whole thumb print thing is just a name given because you take your thumb, press it against the pyrex..or whatever it might be on, and you have the crystal on your thumb that you ingest. So I'm pretty sure that part of my life isn't fictional. Although, comparing my life to now to back then..it really feels like a fairy tale..but majority of people that would talk about raw are just kids online. ^A primary reason I don't typically try to learn things on the intranet.
 
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