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Integration Debt?

Magickduck

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
405
Have you guys ever heard the term "sleep debt". It is used to refer to when people miss a night or many hours of sleep over and over again, they incur sleep debt in which they must make up this sleep. What do you guys think of "integration debt"? I once took LSD every 3 days for a few months. Never went crazy during the trip, had a blast, clear headed learned a ton. But I feel like for each one of those trips - as well as every other L trip I had and any other type as well, all combined in the short period of time I have been alive that I have "integration debt", as in whatever amount of time it would have taken to integrate all these experiences and for them to make sense and be applied if I had spaced my trips out... I suppose you guys know what I mean. Do you think this is what is going on? It would explain the 'permatrips' that I and others I have met/spoken to seem to be experiencing, and also explains why people say that it goes away.... some I have heard after a year, some I have heard 5 years... etc.. Just a theory.
 
Yes I had this when I first tripped very frequently on mushrooms for maybe 2 years and later also a year of weekly LSD use.

Integration is being able to put things into perspective, thereby keeping a proper overview of your life, your identity, your ideas and your convictions. Of course if you are the thinking type and you trip often you can start building up this debt, if a trip is confusing and deep and heavy you may ask yourself if another trip offers resolution or if it exacerbates it. Both can happen I think, even simultaneously (as in: getting questions but even more answers as well).

I lost my perspective for a while and thought that being so very open-minded was a good thing, I was trying to connect all sorts of ideas ranging from psychological to metaphysical to quantum-mechanical, etc. I was trying to find big answers, I was an excellent target for that flick 'what the bleep do we know'. But fortunately I was able to catch up with that debt. Growing older and having found a lot of information that held together my reasonable ideas about nature, reality and the universe made me feel the need to understand everything much less feverishly. And I also had a lot of unfinished ideas that I subjected to skeptical scrutiny and I threw a lot of it overboard.
What makes me say that I have kept reasonable theories is not that I think I now understand it all, but that I feel more clear about what I am able to know on the basis of provisional scientific and philosophical theory and what I am not able to know because my abilities, memory and understanding just have limits. And what changed is that my ideas stopped clashing everywhere. I realized that wanting to know something very badly is not a substitution for actually being able to say something sensible that is not vague.

You could call that my personal revolution regarding my view of everything else, or better said: how I fit into the world. Before all that I had a long existential crisis (during my first mushroom phase) that had a much more limited scope namely myself. During that time I was extremely lost and it was long before I was ready to start researching the outer world.
I first had to pick up the pieces of my exploded ego and answer for myself why I made certain choices in life and whether I had made them consciously. Everything I had ever done suddenly needed to be reviewed bit for bit. After that process I felt like an entirely different person, I cannot remember who I felt like before that, although of course a lot of traits carry over because I am just born that way.

That is my ordeal in a nutshell, it relates to all things you mentioned including being in a perma-trip. IMO a perma-trip (other than being a plausible name for having HPPD) is the result of having an existential crisis or psychosis and never fully recovering. Fortunately I myself never really had a psychosis and I have been feeling integrated again for years now... but I do have personal problems and dysfunction, because I think that my price for blasting the doors of perception off the hinges a bit (not that I am in a state of abiding awakening though) is an amplification of all my mental qualities, including negative ones such as those of the autistic kind or attention issues that were always there latently. That makes me feel like I cannot manage very well because I am constantly over-conscious about things that happen and it causes malaise and stress and confusion, even if it can help in creative processes among other things.
 
Solipsis you blow my mind every time with some of the answers you give - Sorry for not having any input on this subject just wanted to say that aha
 
It took me a month, and a trip to CA to be with my first and original mirror and her WISE presence (bless you girl!), to integrate my ibogaine experience. My brain changed diet on me, but I didn't know it...it took me a month to literally figure out what foods my body was asking for,

Once I was reborn and reformatted thanks to iboga, I didn't even realize how different my brain was, the week before she flew me to LA, I almost had a manic episode.....THANK GOODNESS I have a loving and supporting family that allowed me to go through a couple months of 'follow up therapy' and reintegration because NO WAY IN HELL I could be where I am at (I ++++ daily without drugs now) if I had to go back to the same old life (as in working a job that didn't benefit my spirit) post ibogaine...yeah I know what integration debt is. A final thought, FUCK if I did not have a background in psychology and was not around E (who has a PHD in psychology) I honestly think the ibogaine could have been detrimental to me....it got me off the opiates but without smart and level heads around me to integrate this.....I simply cannot believe I would be here today like I am now! Thank you iboga, thank you Universe. I keep giving it all back now every day.
 
Wubb - Thanks, you 'blew' my ego. Seems fair. ;)

MGS - You keep reminding me about that healing potential waiting in store. I will keep it in mind, it is impossible not to.

The stress I mentioned as one of the detrimental things for me in these years, has meshed into my spirit and body... I read that chronic stress causes hormones to be released that can eventually cause random inflammation resulting in all sorts of ailments. It fits the bill for me. Being schooled as a scientist I try to remain skeptical with things like kambo and other rainforest 'wonders', but it makes me wonder about the possibility of stopping such chronic processes dead in its tracks. The most part of stress has passed for me now, but my limbic system is still often at red alert. I can try to let time heal me, or if I become desperate (or courageous?) enough try iboga.
Oral DMT feels like a logical intermediate step though, but I think DMT's physical healing potential is limited and I 'worry' that envigorating the spirit alone won't cut it, if you catch my drift.

Sorry if that derails anything. I am just very interested in anything you might share.
 
Thought provoking posting right there. I'm currently in that crazy "Let's be Terrence McKenna"-phase right now so this post definitely gives me some outlook and the idea that it might be better to reconsider my tripping behavior just got some solid arguments. A question though, how do you know that you're not integrating properly? How do you even integrate properly? A lot of this stuff is sub-conscious or it has been in my experience
 
Solipsis...it's so hard for me not to read words from VERY smart guys like you who I see as clearly being on my level, and not start thinking of myself as some magic 'ibogaine practitioner' who wants to reach out and think I can help because I have a degree in psychology and a single iboga trip under my belt...and based on that people who I have always tripped with suddenly have REAL ++++s around me post iboga...and make myself feel I can transmit my experience to you.

I spent MANY months with a half ounce of DMT, and other 'healing' psychedelics trying to conquer my addiction once and for all...it just didn't work.

I know and love psilocin intimately now, I could write a whole book on the three trips I shared on psilocin and people close to me recently...and no amount of psilocin can do what iboga does.

When you get into reading about the pharmacology of iboga and it's actions on "GDNF expression" (which I am only BARELY beginning to understand), and the concept that iboga 'destroys' the cells that store 'mal adaptive behaviors' then regenerates those cells within 24 hours...while allowing you to revisit the past and present (traumatic) events (Brain movies) that catalyzed 'maladaptive behaviors' while iboga holds your hand and shows you how to 're-behave' so you don't get fucked up by it again....the concept of the brain fuse box (oh I wish time were on my side to post the links but I must get off the PC), GDNF, and how it all fits together........yeah DMT doesn't do any of this. Iboga is one of a kind. That first month post iboga I thought the whole "iboga isn't a psychedelic like LSD, etc" angle was just marketing...but it isn't at all like ANY other psychedelic.

The combination of the psychospiritual aspect combined with ibogaine's PHYSICAL properties of healing fucked up brains in a physical way that can be demonstrated with science make it the miracle of modern medicine if there ever was one. Next week I will work on collecting some of the papers I know you need to read.
 
Thought provoking posting right there. I'm currently in that crazy "Let's be Terrence McKenna"-phase right now so this post definitely gives me some outlook and the idea that it might be better to reconsider my tripping behavior just got some solid arguments. A question though, how do you know that you're not integrating properly? How do you even integrate properly? A lot of this stuff is sub-conscious or it has been in my experience

Let's first refresh some memories, shall we?

Our ego / identity is crafted when we are young by our upbringing, guided by our parents and society and shaped by our learning experiences. We are told what we are and what we are not and we also draw conclusions from experiences that result in an image that is largely fixed. We attach to that image and confuse ourselves with it, even if the convictions held in it can hold us back.

When you are in a sort of recon phase with psychedelics, which typically lasts a long time, the impact of having your ego softened and all sorts of boundaries becoming blurry, is considerable. After or better said 'in between' trips we return to daily life armed with this ego that is gradually blurring into uncertainty. I don't think that it is all rather sub-conscious but quite the opposite: the effect is so pervasive that it meddles with our perspective because it is actually our perspective that is changing. It is very hard to see something if you cannot take a step back from it.
So what does it mean not to integrate at a proper pace, i.e. compared to the pace at which you are tripping and redefining all sorts of relationships within the image of reality and yourself that you are rendering?

Kazimierz Dabrowski says that even without psychedelics people often become entangled in processes he calls positive desintegration. The process is a cyclus of first breaking something (desintegration), then rearranging it (I might call it a natural form of defragmenting), and restoring it in a reborn quality. Apparently it happens more often in gifted people because they go through mental processes more quickly, and so they do in their personal development.

It is obvious that psychedelics catalyze the process of breaking your preconceptions and dissolving them.

So the best answer I can give you is that the symptoms are that of someone who feels like parts of himself or what he perceives to be his world are particularly uncertain or amorphous. Recall my description of my existential crisis: I was redefining so much of myself and my life by questioning it and no longer regarding the previously known answers as a fixed state that it was virtually impossible to live my life. I really needed to complete the third stage of the process, otherwise there was no sense of self to feel at home in that life, to make choices naturally and to understand my place implicitly and completely.

I understand that this can be hard to recognise if it is not as dire, but you might be able to test yourself by trying to operate your perspective. If after a trip you are able to put into perspective where you are 'coming from', where you are and where you are going in your life, what things generally mean to you that are going on in your life and that you consider to be a vital part of how you see yourself it would seem that proper integration is taking place. These are key questions so general and essential that we don't tend to ask them, even if things are going awry.
This is yet complicated even more because adolescence is a stage in your life where these things are natural. A higher frequency of positive desintegration cycles I guess you could call it.
You will need to take that into account as well, and consider it in how your perspective is taking shape. Maybe compare it to how you used to feel about the matter when things felt pretty clear and sure.

No one else can answer this for you concretely I'm afraid. And you don't have to worry if you suddenly realize you are in the middle of something, in the middle of it all. That may be natural, but too much is too much. Just take a look at yourself every now and again, and see how a trip makes a difference. Or not.


Alright... now understand that I don't take this casually by any means, but from your angle what does one have to lose by trying iboga? Is treating the whole experience with awe and respect and proper rituals, but without an active guide (only having a sitter present) enough in your opinion?
 
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Thought provoking posting right there. I'm currently in that crazy "Let's be Terrence McKenna"-phase right now so this post definitely gives me some outlook and the idea that it might be better to reconsider my tripping behavior just got some solid arguments. A question though, how do you know that you're not integrating properly? How do you even integrate properly? A lot of this stuff is sub-conscious or it has been in my experience

to be honest, I didn't know I wasn't integrating properly. I was just tripping over and over again every few days and learning more and more and never really had time to reflect... then when I stopped tripping it became obvious I had done too much too fast as I went completely bonkers for over a year. Just recovering and pulling my shit together now.
 
Brilliant post man re integration. Seriously, that's going in my records...brilliant. To answer your question...I don't know what one has to lose but I can tell you that I had no guide, just a best friend (who is not 'psychedelic' at all) sleeping nearby in case of emergency. And I had respect for the iboga as I always have for psychedelics...I was SCARED to death to take it, until I took the 'test dose' which made the fear that my body would not be at peace go away...then I was just scared out of my mind of tripping for 3 days on a 'harrowing' drug with 'residual stimulation' and all the other stuff I read that ended up not being the case for me at all....and when I finally got to swallowing it...the intensity of that moment and confronting the fear of the unknown made me start crying like a little girl.

Beyond that, I was desperate....living at home with my parents after destroying my good life in Colorado, losing my home, buying heroin to kill myself, etc etc (all in my iboga report)...so I can say I really did not think it would work...no matter how many success stories one can read...when you spent 10 years convincing everyone you know that you are best off as a junkie and you don't want to live any other way, or can't live any other way...I had pretty much worked myself into the idea that there is no way the iboga could work for me....and I really think I was doing it so I could say, 'tried everything, it failed, no hope, told you it was hopeless, now leave me alone to die.'

So yeah, I had awe and respect but I did not believe it would or could work....and I certainly had no idea it would/could not only get rid of my decade long physical addiction, and mental dependency on feeling warm and fuzzy, and obsession with warm and fuzzy....the idea it would rework my spirituality, change my diet to all healthy living food that does not come in a box, change my self image from haggard drug addict to pretty damn sexy looking guy, especially for my age, change my outlook from 'failure' to 'I can do anything' that has been bared out and proven over and over all the time since...including all these job offers this week that I believe I now have because I have the attitude, 'you need to convince me why my time is worth you hiring me' vs 'I need work!' and then many other things that there is no need for me to talk about here but you may PM me for more details.

In short, I don't see myself as any more special than you are....based on your writings I bet it could work for you and I have faith in that plant that I...well I never knew what faith was before.

Alright... now understand that I don't take this casually by any means, but from your angle what does one have to lose by trying iboga? Is treating the whole experience with awe and respect and proper rituals, but without an active guide (only having a sitter present) enough in your opinion?
 
Oh, I am 100000000000000000000000000000% certain part of my success is the 'iboga music' that was the only thing I heard. That music allowed my soul to be transported to Gabon and take part in an iboga initiation. Here is the kicker...the iboga music sounded TERRIBLE to me when I first heard it and I listened to about 30 seconds and turned it off. Hated it. It is no small miracle to me I listened to it while tripping...in fact the only reason I did end up listening to it was that I did not have my PC and I did not have my Beatles and Pink Floyd and all the stuff I normally listen to....so figured it couldn't hurt and literally within 20 minutes of taking the full dose, it started and there was no going back.

Make sure you listen to this music...there is a reason why iboga music exists. A newer but closest friend ever of mine is a blues and grateful dead guy and our first real trip together (30mg psilocin) I put on the iboga music and within a minute he said, "I'm home" and the music helped the (REAL) ++++ happen.

You must listen to iboga music for it to really work...beyond curing the body...I mean for it to work like it worked for me....I KNOW that much sir!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEAWet6qYNw&list=PLftUgMQRym1ddsIxbiyNXQKnF1lXAVyjM
 
Extraordinary! Thanks for the good info. :)

I will definitely make a mental note of the music and yes I will PM you when I have the time. But logging off now.
This is all food for thought, I bet it is real coriaceous at the center. ;)
 
I was a very intensive psychedelic user from the ages of 15 to 23 and I have not done a hallucinogen since. I am now 39 and just joined this site because I am preparing to have some psychedelic experiences next year -- I feel that I now have sufficiently integrated and acted upon those insights and will be welcomed back versus, "You again? GTFO and do the work!" For me it was the acting on and embodying the insights that took years. When I stopped I was definitely "broken" and was simultaneously very fragile and very confident at the same time. After having my last major ass-kicking I made sure to get back in the saddle a couple of times so when I returned at some point in the future I wouldn't have the fear -- I'm glad I did even though it depleted me further.

I am disappointed to find that LSD is not as easy to properly source as it once was so I will be doing a mushroom grow. I have to admit that I feel that I can "manipulate" the LSD experience easier than I can the mushroom experience so I will be doing extra preparations of the mind.
 
Very interesting thread.

As a long time lurker, Solipsis and MGS, you never fail to give me something to think about.
 
Great thread subject here Magickduck, you sure do choose some good ones.
I think that everyone has a different method of integration of what is learnt, and a different time period where this is all done.
When I was around 17 I had a stint of DXM use where I had it pretty much every weekend for over a year and after I stopped and reached the end of the so called "honeymoon" period, I realized that I had a massive amount to integrate and practice. The world seemed that it wasn't half as complex as what I thought before (it was, I just had a much broader perspective than previously) DXM was never the same after that, it is now way less foggy and way more expansive in the visualization sense.

This weekend I saw an excellent movie that made me think about this thread. It is called Limitless and is about a fictional super nootropic. Without spoiling the plot the movie is about a dude with writers block that stumbles across a supply of a brand new super drug that unlocks usage of 100% of the brain. The drug turns out to be very good at doing what it does but has adverse side effects that reveal themselves when the drug is stopped.
I found many parallels to psychedelic usage in that you may learn massive amounts whilst on them, but when you come back to reality most of what is learnt dissapears into the ether, only to be able to be re-accessed when you revisit the same headspace. This is tricky as all psychedelic headspaces vary wildly from trip to trip and from substance to substance.
The best way I've found to integrate gems of wisdom is to think about them as much as possible the day after the trip and to try and work out a way of fitting it into everyday life. I don't know how I do it but I have a way of full reintegration of knowledge found in like 2 or 3 days with most trips. Except for a really mind blowing one on 25i and amanita muscaria, where I didn't feel like tripping for like a month after.( I was offered entry to a portal from an entity, and I refused when he said I couldn't return. )

I highly recommended this movie to all of you, it is one of the best drug based movies I have ever seen, and is now in my top 5 movies of all time. It has some excellent gems of knowledge, and it taught me quite a bit about why constant integration of what is learnt in an altered state is sooo important.
 
'twas a great movie and inspired me to try nootropics which are also great!!

basically regarding integration what I did rather than what you said was just continue to trip (I was young and stupid) to try to learn more and mroe and remember the answers and eventually after some hundred trips, I was overwhelmed with the ammount of things I had thoguht about and the ammount of things on my conscious mind/in my brain ..
 
May you find the mushroom/psilocin as I now do. I used to think I did not like mushrooms and would have always chosen LSD....and to be sure I had LSD a couple months ago and it was beautiful. Now mushrooms is my #1 of the tryptamine sort...there is something (to me) really magical about the mushroom and I have a million theories as to why..but they are not important. If you have faith in the mushroom, and by growing it yourself, I think there is a good chance you will rediscover something VERY special in that ancient psychedelic.

I

I am disappointed to find that LSD is not as easy to properly source as it once was so I will be doing a mushroom grow. I have to admit that I feel that I can "manipulate" the LSD experience easier than I can the mushroom experience so I will be doing extra preparations of the mind.
 
If you have faith in the mushroom.

Even though some years have passed and I am a "rational adult," the "youngster" part of myself is still there and hopes the mushroom has faith in me. In my experiences with mushrooms I have always been more yin, my muscles relax, my mind is less clever and my voice more silent -- like Earth to the quickness of LSD's Air. Thank you for your words.
 
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