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  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe |

Nbomes and vasconstriction

J

Jackpothead

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Joined
Oct 27, 2010
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47
So i did 25c for the second time this weekend (600ug) and though I didn't trip visually ( though some euphoria and confusion) I did get some vasoconstriction, I'm not really experienced enough to quantify but it just felt like my hands and feet were tighter and colder on the inside, not worrying but a bit uncomfortable. I want to push my dose to 900ug next time but I don't really want the vasoconstriction to get worse, is there any cheapish way to deal with this apart from weed? ( I don't smoke anymore)
 
I'm stabbing about wildly in the dark here, sort of like a cerebrally challenged, half-blind, nocturnal Crocodile Dundee, but I've always wondered, given that the drug is a cardiovascular dilator, if perhaps Salbutamol might counter-act the effects of vasoconstriction on various drugs. I originally came up with this idea after reading many, many reports of blue knees after Mephedrone over-use & of sometimes fatal vasoconstrictive problems from psychedelics such as BDF.

Take this with a huge pinch of salk because it pure speculation. If anyone with an actual working brain doesn't agree with me or see's any kind of risk associated with Salbutamol under these circumstances that I havent thought of, please feel free to speak up. I'm not inclined to offer this kind of advice usually, coz mixing chemicals isn't generally a very good idea unless one knows exactly what one is doing.
 
Thanks for thw answers though i hope someone a bit more sure of him/herself answers, meanwhile I have a HR advice for you Si Ingwe, do NOT attempt to stab crocodiles in the dark! While it is a fun activity, it only takes one badly directed stab to make the battle pend in favour of your opponent! Be extremely careful handling knifes and crocodiles in the dark.
 
This opinion may be anathema to many NBOMe aficionados, but in view that 600ug of 25C-NBOMe did not produce some of the psychedelic effects you were hoping for (e.g. visual effects) and instead you experienced uncomfortable vasoconstriction (i.e. cold, tight hands and feet), I suggest that you forgo further tests with this rather dangerous chemical. At best, if you choose to continue ingesting this substance, I believe that you should not go above 600ug. If your choice is the latter, then consider taking a normal dose of plain aspirin an hour or two prior to each trial, as aspirin thins the blood somewhat and *might* help reduce the uncomfortable feelings and problems that vasoconstriction can cause. Related to that, and contrastingly, do not take ibuprofen, as this drug *increases* vasoconstriction.
 
These are my advices:
1. Some progenitor of nitric oxide, like l-arginine
2. ACEi- for example captopril- probably the most effective way

I think salbutamol is not a perfect idea. Except of beta 2 agonism it acts on beta 1 receptors and may increase HR which could be dangerous in combination with 25c.
 
some good otc vasodialators that are pretty efficient are- l-arginine, l-citrulline, propionyl-l-carnitine, and l-novaline, a lot of these are found in body building products, but I have found that l-norvaline- being a PDE-5 inhibitor, and propionyl-l-carnitine are the most potent and long lasting of the amino acids I listed, keep in mind that dosing these at least 30 min on a empty stomach is key with a full glass of water, very much so for a arginine based substance like arginine alpha-keto-glutarate ( a ''extended release version of l-arginine'')

dosing of l-arginine can be from 500mg -3,000mg/l-cirulline-750mg-2,000mg/propionyl-l-carnitine-1,000-2000mg/ and l-norvaline 500mg-1,000mg.
thses dosings are based on bodyweight and tolerance to the amino acids, and please try them before the concurrent use of a nbome to access physical effects and optimal dose/combos, as these when taken in excess can lead to hypotension,lightheadedness, and the runs(l-arginine).

there are quite a few formulations of l-arginine/l-citrulline combos and are not pricey.

my question is how effective would something like clonidine be- although I think this would only solve part of the problem
 
Hi Jackpothead

first things first: Nbome's are tricky and apparently several people are more susceptible to the bad (and occasionally lethal!) effects than others. For some, they can go to several mgs in one dose, while for others 800 mcg can be fatal. I myself am not totally at ease with 25C. So better safe than sorry and I would recommend extreme caution in your case

Yet if you really want to go further there are two easily available things you can take before another try. 1. Wine. particularly red wine is nice vasodilator; 2. Chocolate,especially dark chocolate actually works pretty well as a vasodilator because of theobromine. I've used chocolate for vasodilation, but never with Nbome's, so I do not really know how it will work out

Finally, I'm not a Medical Doctor, so this is not medical advice
 
^^ I agree, the nbome family while being interesting is to tricky for me to want to use them, there is nothing wrong with them, they just command respect and accuracy on dosing and individual tolerance/ underlying health issues, though not completely without risk themselves more classical trpytamines seem to be easier on the ole body, but ive always liked trypts to phenyls.

more room for error can never be a bad thing, plus some people are not cut out for certain substances and should not force it, listen to your body/mind.

I personally do not like to have to -take a drug to take/handle a drug- if your not getting what you like from a substance, there has to be many more that can offer similar or better results
 
Thanks for all the advice, there are certainly alot of options for me to explore, just one thing though, regarding deaths, is there actually evidence of peiple dying with < 2mg dosages? From all I've read it always seems people accidentaly dose unknown/very high doses.
 
Yes, there are. I believe you will find it here on PD a report about a guy at a festival dying with just one drop intranasal believed to have less than 1 mg (although I'm not sure whether it was 25C or 25I)

always be safe and titrate your way to your comfort zone. One advice if you want to continue with 25C would be to use the exact same dosage but have like 100 g of dark chocolate 20 minutes before. See if the vasoconstriction is smaller and if you actually feel better. It is quite likely that with less concerns, the psychedelic potential will finally blossom
 
Jackpothead said:
Thanks for all the advice, there are certainly alot of options for me to explore, just one thing though, regarding deaths, is there actually evidence of peiple dying with < 2mg dosages? From all I've read it always seems people accidentaly dose unknown/very high doses.
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I read a trip report on 25i last night about a guy whos friend ended up in the hospital for over 5 days and almost died on a 500ug dose. Its a bit of a sobering realization that you NEVER know. Trip report said his magnesium/potassium levels werent dangerously low and he had evidence of severe vasoconstriction, blue lips etc. The person who wrote the report was tripping as well on the same dose and was having a great time and was good to go. The kid had apparently stopped responding to any stimuli and his face was red which turned to blueish purple and they coudlnt get him to answer or react in any way and had to carry him to a car and go to the hospital..

It appears anyone who tries this substance even at what compared to some is a pitifully low dose.. can have bad consequences.

edit:

As far as titrating to a comfort zone, it would appear that based on the fact some people have had such severe reactions at 500ug that you either have to take the gamble (which lets admit you are anyway) or titrate with really low amounts like 100ug.. Im not sure how you would go about that, I assume chances are you will have a 'wasted' trip more than anything right? Like how long would you wait between doses? 15 mins? If you really truly need upto 1mg or more thats a long time to go and I'd imagine tolerance would set in by then.

I'm interested that you took 600ug and didn't feel much of anything with 25c, its supposedly supposed to be even more active at lower doses compared to 25i from what I have read here
 
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Thanks rorthron I'll try that chocolate thing! You got mail btw :)

Infant, it's not that I didn't feel anything, I was certainly high, I was just not having much in the way of visuals, I don't know though, do you have to focus on the trip to get visuals? Because I just took my tab and then went ahead to have a regular day with non tripping people, maybe that was the problem?

EDIT: also would maybe trying the nasal ROA boost the desired effects?
 
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