Lucifer's Fall...

[HypGnosis]

Though on the cross even he lost his faith for a moment and cried out "My God, why have you forsaken me?". But it was only for a short moment in the middle of the most intense suffering and it was the agreement for God to "forsake" him.

I never got this.....Why would Jesus need faith, if he knew he was the son of God, surely that would be knowledge?

 

[MrGrunge]

^ Because it makes for a better story? The Bible is not exactly a reliable source of logic and reason.

 

[HypGnosis]

Haha, indeed.

Also, if Jesus proved his omnipotence by performing parlour tricks to his disciples/followers, then they too have knowledge (or perceived knowledge), so wouldn't require faith.

God's being a bit unfair when he proves himself to some, allowing them an easy ride to heaven. But others, he asks to put aside all reason and have faith, knowing that some of us won't believe and be damned to hell. If he was fair he'd prove himself to everyone.

Don't know why I'm going on about this though..... Fuck it, it's something to do.

 

[What 23]

Sometimes we doubt what we "know" at other times. Maybe he needed to doubt. He needed to be driven to that point. What would be the sacrifice, really, if he knew the entire time through it?

I have even wondered if that was a point. It was, in a sense, a death itself.

 

[neversickanymore]

LUCI-- you know what side I'm on.. comin for ya.. how does it feel knowing you cant win but still cant give up.. thought you could win by trying to grab power through religion, claiming power in the name of.. ha. im coming.. see ya soon. xoxo..

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Haha, indeed.

Also, if Jesus proved his omnipotence by performing parlour tricks to his disciples/followers, then they too have knowledge (or perceived knowledge), so wouldn't require faith.

But plenty of people who saw the miracles still didn't believe in him. Even when the Lord was going around smiting people(s) left and right they still didn't follow His ways; I won't bother to bring Gideon into this*.

Also, see the beloved disciple versus Thomas in the Gospel according to John (though maybe that's what you were thinking of when you brought this up).

Though on the cross even he lost his faith for a moment and cried out "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

I see that more as affirming or attempting to affirm his faith in the face of doubt, read the rest of Psalm 22, which he was quoting when he said that. I think we've been over this before, but maybe that was in a different thread with somebody else? Eh, whatever, it bears repeating, we gotta represent both sides.


*Changed my mind, I will, read chapter 6 of the Book of Judges. Talk about a reluctant hero.

 

[Ninae]

LUCI-- you know what side I'm on.. comin for ya.. how does it feel knowing you cant win but still cant give up.. thought you could win by trying to grab power through religion, claiming power in the name of.. ha. im coming.. see ya soon. xoxo..

"LUCIS" would be the correct spelling, or abbrevation for Lucifer ("The Lucis Trust"). as his homeland is said to be France (the home of the most decor).

And if you want to be a successful Satanist you pretend to be all noble and pure, and blind everyone. Look at Morten Harket in "The Sun Always Shines on TV" in his satanic high. That was one successful Satanist!

Just some helpful advice from your master. But now I've already said too much. See you on the chessboard!

 

[panic in paradise]

But plenty of people who saw the miracles still didn't believe in him. Even when the Lord was going around smiting people(s) left and right they still didn't follow His ways; I won't bother to bring Gideon into this*.

Also, see the beloved disciple versus Thomas in the Gospel according to John (though maybe that's what you were thinking of when you brought this up).



I see that more as affirming or attempting to affirm his faith in the face of doubt, read the rest of Psalm 22, which he was quoting when he said that. I think we've been over this before, but maybe that was in a different thread with somebody else? Eh, whatever, it bears repeating, we gotta represent both sides.


*Changed my mind, I will, read chapter 6 of the Book of Judges. Talk about a reluctant hero.

Psalm 22
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth, and answer me in saving me from the horns of the unicorns.

those viscous unicorns!
:D

_________
There are not many Christian faiths that subscribe to theory of Lucifer being Satan, an evil entity, or existent at all. Neither do many read from the Old Testament for the reason of "mistranslations" and what not.

" The Bright Morning Star goes to the misnomer of "Lucifer", which is an incorrect title for Satan or the Devil taken from the King James Version of Isaiah 14:12. Were it not for this odd transliteration, "Lucifer" would not exist as a term in English, and there would be no confusion on the matter. As it is, we need to be careful, I would suggest, in using the term to describe who the Bible calls "Satan" or "the Devil". Most Christians are onto this, yet still the term "Lucifer" persists. In any case, the "morning star" is the title of Christ throughout the rest of Scripture.

2Pet 1:19 (NIV) And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Rev 2:28 (NIV) I will also give him the morning star.

Rev 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Since it is clear that Jesus is the "Bright Morning Star" (even said so Himself) then how should we understand Isaiah 14:12?

Isa 14:12-15 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

This should be understood as a sardonic title for the "anti-christ" or beast. He claims to be "christ", right? He claims to be Messiah, and has his moment under the sun, but comes to be brought low ultimately. Contrast the real Bright Morning Star: He lives humbly, does not boast, is not arrogant, is submissive to the Father... even unto death. Then the Father raises Him to the highest place; in the morning so to speak.

Mat 23:12 "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus lives out the gospel: death first, resurrection second. Satan wants it all now, and will go down ultimately. Satan looks good at night, but goes down in flames in the morning. Jesus is in the tomb, but arises in the morning. Do you see the pattern? Who is your life most like? What are we encouraging in others, to follow Christ in the gospel, or to grab all you can now? The difference is as wide as Jesus and Satan.

In any case, "Lucifer" means "morning star", so it should not be used to describe Satan. Jesus is The Morning Star. Satan tries to look like Jesus and supplant Him sometime in the future, perhaps very near future, even claming to be Him. But let us understand the deception and that the true "Morning Star" told us this in advance through His Apostles and Prophets; and told us to "watch out".

2Th 2:3-5 (NAS) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

A few more verses on the Morning Star, our Jesus Christ:

Nu 24:17 (NIV) "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a sceptre will rise out of Israel..."

Mt 2:2 (NIV) and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Mt 2:7-10 (NIV) Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him." After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.

Lu 1:76-79 (NIV) [Zechariah concerning John:] "And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace."

John 1:7-9 (NIV) He [John] came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Isa 9:2 (NIV) The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

Mt 4:16 (NIV) "The people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."

Isa 60:1-2 (NIV) "Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the Lord rises upon you and his glory appears over you."

John 8:12 (NIV) Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." "
http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_morningstar.html


_________
I had started a Bible Passage Discussion thread, which did begin to sway a bit off topic, but would be interesting to see active again.

 

[Ninae]

Wonderful to see some credit being given to Jesus. I don't think Jesus is giving nearly enough respect these days, if any at all, considering we would probably be living in a much worse world without him. We have more admiration for our celebrities, and are taught about Jesus is in the most uninspirering, mind-numbingly boring way, that is very hard to understand, so it's not exactly encouraged.

But if it wasn't for Jesus I imagine we would be living in a much crueller world and a form of tyranny. I don't think we would have Bluelight and such easy access to recreational drugs, to put it that way. So many people like to say religion is the root of all evil, but religion is something man-made, and not the same as Jesus' mission and what he did.

But I think kids grow up feeling about Jesus more or less how they are programmed to by our culture. There is no pleasure involved in the teaching us of Jesus and it doesn't even sound very realistic, so there's no wonder most aren't very enthusiastic about it. It's funny how most people imagine their feelings about religion are their own when they have been pretty much programmed into them by exact knowledge of human psychology. I wasn't raised a Christian and didn't believe any of it until I was about 17 and started gaining an interest in philosophy and religion, and then I had to read everything, and I found enough to convince me that Jesus was probably real.

I think part of the problem is the way they start teaching people about Jesus and lecturing about religion from such a young age when you have no capacity to understand it and it has no interest to you. Like one hour a week from you're 7, or whatever. I think it works against its purpose and makes most grow up with an antipathy towards Christianity. I tried to talk to my sisters about Jesus when I started to understand what he was really about, but they didn't want to know. I think there should be an age limit to when they can start teaching religion, to when you start to become naturally curious and wonder about these things, or not until your mid-teens, from when it could be taught more intensely.

One thing I learned about Jesus is that he came from a special class of saviour souls and was created just for that purpose. But that he first had to go through a regular spiritual evolution and then get the idea for himself and formulate it in his own words. And that when he presented his idea to God he said "That is a very beautiful wish and I am very happy to hear you say that as you were created just for that purpose". So Jesus has always been something special but it also suggests there are more like him. But he is the one for OUR planet and the one who deserves our respect.

 

[Ninae]

Hmm, I know anything I say about this is just going to get struck down because it's so far-out there, but I've had a few new inspirations about this now and they're very strong and recurring.

For one thing, I think I misunderstood in a way by comparing Lucifer to Satan, or the personification of negativity or evil. The idea of him now doesn't freak me out as much and I agree more with the poster who said the world has been fooled or lied to in relation to Lucifer. I don't think he was ever "The devil" or, or the source of evil, but for sure there could be many high-ranking evil beings who could be seen as devils.

So what I believe more now, and I see this as the most advanced theory I've been given, is that he was the angelic GUARDIAN of the dark or negative principle in this creation. That he was put there to see that it didn't get out of hand (as he was seen as the most fit for the job and was willing) and act according to divine will. i.e. he isn't some crazy human-like being acting out of the pleasure of doing evil but constantly in touch with the God-Source and carrying out his directions.

I mean, in this creation of polarity, the dark or destructive principle has to be kept in control in some way. Otherwise all of creation would unravel. And I think this is where he comes in, I seem to remember him being described by someone as "The police officer of creation", and think that could be quite accurate. Because he would apply "hard love" and not something that is pleasent.

Like, for instance, he might be there to make sure the positive principle is always the strongest so creation doesn't self-destruct. That would be one worthwhile thing to do. And he might work to make sure nothing bad happens to someone who doesn't deserve it. I read about someone who said one time even Lucifer stepped in to stop someone from hurting him, and that certainly was a suprise. But I think he could be a form of distributor of bad karma and makes sure it happens to the right people. I also think he keeps control of "his people", and no-one can do anything without checking it with him first, because he's the receiver of instructions from the Godhead of what can be done in this world.

 

[B9]

This kind of shit gives drugs a bad name.

I wouldn't worry about that drugs have a bad name anyway.

Can anyone explain concisely what the OP is trying communicate - it reads to me like out loud thinking as if she's writing down stuff she's turning over in her head but lacks a clear definition of her own opinion maybe.

 

[Maya]

I wouldn't worry about that drugs have a bad name anyway.

Can anyone explain concisely what the OP is trying communicate - it reads to me like out loud thinking as if she's writing down stuff she's turning over in her head but lacks a clear definition of her own opinion maybe.

I think what the OP is trying to communicate is the correct explanation of what "Lucifer's fall meant." Her explanation though is quite different from what I believe was the cause of Lucifer's fall is since I grew up with an understanding that Lucifer was cast down by God because of an attempt rebellion with other angels against him. These angels were also cast down and hell was created which became their domain.

 

[What 23]

On the subject of confusion about Lucifer and Satan: In Islam, God created three distinct beings... Angels, Humans, and Jinn. Jinn are the Genies. It's interesting to read about, and relate, but some ideas of Satan, according to Islam, are that he is a Jinn, which would go against him being an Angel- Lucifer.

Just thoughts.

To add, Jinn are considered "lower" than humans (or so I have read), but are thought to have their own societies, like humans. Angels are also said to "bow" to humans, as well, though.

 

[Ninae]

I think what the OP is trying to communicate is the correct explanation of what "Lucifer's fall meant." Her explanation though is quite different from what I believe was the cause of Lucifer's fall is since I grew up with an understanding that Lucifer was cast down by God because of an attempt rebellion with other angels against him. These angels were also cast down and hell was created which became their domain.

Pretty close, but I'm trying to get a glimpse of the original carrying out of this philosophy...or as a more as kind of science when you really focus on. Though this something that is is to be accomplished, is somethinv very hard, indeed. And doesn't come that easily or naturally to to someone to begin with. us first Thus the need for multiple incarnatons, although we soon start to realise !'ve been given a bad deal deal, that they have conditions worse than others. Some might just except it.

I also think the first celebrations didn't get out of hand at first...it might have been a combination of celebrations of the deva, nature spirits, and the spiritual workers in nature, and how we could both be tested and healed through them.

The devic Kingdom is strong, Basically the energy workers of nature and thhe universe. Nr nothinb, no change would come about, they didn't hey are also The Elfin realms in The Lord of the Rings is a Good examle of this, but only for someone awakened to their higher senses, if even to the smallest extent.

Not all elf-lightworkers are on the most developed path, or the one with the most appeal. It need to be a personal choice, I guess. Though, they might instead choose to sacrifice themselves in the greatest effect of their personaliy. Everyone pushes thesmselves, a little, some more than othere, its is the ultimat, sacrifice. The sacrifice which will bring the most lihht to the Earth. Jesus' sacrifice is said to have brought a great deal of light to Earth, so he seserves our respect, no matter how we have been encourahed (or brainwashed). As I'm sure he made the greatest sacrifice by now). Or maybe in moments gone far past. From what I know both of the Civilisations of Atlantis and Lemuria went each went down when they'recivilization collapsed.

Or, at least, I feel we have been and almost succeeded twice before, and this is only in the most recent times. But apart from this - the awareness of what is trying to be carried out on Earth - and the faster and faster illuminbation. So I can't really see it this time. There are so many things come to help us that will make it easier. healing of the physical, emotional, and etheric, as this is a prerequiside.

I feel I have been chancged ompletely so many times. Like there's been nothing else left of the old me, apart from the most precious things.

 

[Maya]

Isn't it truly fascinating how there are so many things that seems so simple but there really is more into it? I'm also trying to understand the origins of theseor lucifer but there's just so much to consider. Like lets say the different interpretations in different countries and cultures. Since we are on this topic, what is your opinion or understanding regarding the army/armies of lucifer? Isn't there some type of hierarchy similar to the hierarchy of angels?

 

[What 23]

^There's a movie, not reviewed well (but I liked it), called Legion, where Michael basically rebels against God's orders, where Gabriel follows them. The orders are to basically kill off humanity, and the new Christ. Michael, however, wants to save humanity, and the Christ. One of the things I remember, one of the lines that Michael says is "It's not so clear cut, and dry", in regard to good, evil, what's going on... I don't know.. it's been awhile since I watched it.

I liked the movie. It came out exactly one year (take a day away) after I met a girl who got me interested in Angels, whose favorite seemed to be Michael, and the movie starred Michael, basically. He shows up, falls to earth on the 23rd of December, in the movie, cuts off his own wings, and jacks a police car , after they, or one of them, is possessed by an angel trying to stop him- Michael, that appears as a demonic possession

Ninae, it's interesting the connecting with police to Lucifer, as Michael is also considered the "Patron Saint of Police". And here in this story, Michael rebels, and sacrifices himself, and is resurrected.

Not to say Lucifer, Michael, and Satan (and Jesus) are all the same, but like the tree of life and the passing through the... What are they called (them there orbs/shells), it might all be in a sense, a process. I don't know. I'm not that smart, or knowing of this. But if I am the beginning and the end, and everything is essentially the same at the beginning and the end, as I am... it's all related, and I am related to all of it, and can't be separated. On levels, for function, sure... separation has to occur. This color needs to be next to this color, in the spectrum... For there to be color. It just has to happen that way. But it's all just light.

?

There's always a question. At least for me. Except perhaps when there's not. LOL. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Ah. Ah. Ahhhhhhhh. Ah.

Jesus also rebelled. And it still interests me that in the Bible he refers to himself as the morning star, and the only place Lucifer is mentioned, he is mentioned as the morning star... Even if they were just finding relation, and there's nothing functional (but there always is), it's still interesting to think about.

 

[Maya]

Yes! I've seen that movie and ill give you a wow to be able to remember that line. Wasnt it angel gabriel who is infavor in making humanity extinct? I remember the devil appearing to jesus in the bible a few times encouraging him him to commit a sin. Could this be just a test that god puts him through and maybe god and satan work together? Questions questions and more questions.

 

[Ninae]

Confusion. Confusion and more Confusion. Put out there with a fee clews to enable us to grasp it if we work har enough.

No Angel could tempt humans aganst sin though...that is against the fundamental neature, for one thing, for another they know what would happen to humans if they did.

That's why Jesus says, "Get thee behind me Satan" when he offers him all the kingdoms of the world and all the riches therein if he would all but fall down to worship him This is also a way of testing him. The devil lives in a state of eternity, and knows there is no death, and has no death fear to wrestle with. But is Jesus so aware of the real state of our condition why would he mind leaving this world for a far better reality in all ways?

As he know it could never be worth giving up that blessed state, where we alll live in perfection, and experience joys impossible to dream of now. And would only lead to all the truths of creation being revealed, and all kinds of calamatiy, like offering you a spider in retu. But a bit part of this is would be that Jesus is a transcended, multidemensional being, not limited by time or any sense as we know it, and fully know he has the enterity of heaven in front oh him when thoe small assignment has been made. until he gets bored. While Lucifer feels content/maybe not, depending on what his focus is on: If it's about winning the game, "winning over God, in the small way he's able to, yay.

He knew well ahead it would lead to his stature in heaven, his residence in the heavenly reigns, and what his accomplishments would be - The most Luminous and adored angel, the most loved of the humans and angels, God's most trusted Guardian, and even more capable of carrying out a great tak for God. See, I think the highest angels and spiritual beings, not the nature, spirits, baby angels, and archangels - but the angelic hierarchy has many levels and each can take a billion years, no one has to leave it if they don't want. There's not much imputus to evolve, as you'll already have ell that An Ascended Human Master has.


- Mind you, as I have quite a flair for lyrical religious poetry, anyone know it if this is still something that could be turned into a carreer?

By "flair", I don't mean so much the words, so much, more the ability to uplift hearts and influence emotions. Llift you to a higher state, a bit closer to heaven. Maybe not that much, but noticably closer. Nothing new under the sun, but it can always be brought to the aid of someone. .

 

[panic in paradise]

to believe in the existence of Lucifer, is to of have fallen for Luciferan deception.

Revelation 22:16
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

 

[Maya]

to believe in the existence of Lucifer, is to of have fallen for Luciferan deception.

Revelation 22:16
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

But isn't lucifer part of every human being? The evil in every humans hearts?