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Guardian story - new drugs

Source: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ci_nbome/2ci_nbome_death.shtml
autopsies, medical examiners, bags with 25I-NBOME on them.

Are you reading the same erowid page as me Mike? This is a sample of what that page says:

insufflating a powder that has been reported by the media to have been "bath salts", but by the coroner as "NBOMe". Four others were also hospitalized, but recovered. It is not clear whether the substance involved was 25I-NBOMe

Otwell is said to have been ingesting caffeinated alcoholic drinks for several hours beforehand

consuming 2C-I-NBOMe with her boyfriend. The material was in "pill" form, so dosage is unknown. However analysis of the pills suposedly found that they did contain "25i"

Forensic scientist Amy Granlund identified that the psychedelic substance was indeed "25i-NBMOe," otherwise known as 2C-I.


You're telling me you're convinced this is evidence that 25i, otherwise known as 2c-i 8) is the new "killer drug?".

Call that a scare story?

So, at a guess, how many people on earth do you think have taken 25i? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? And you've found about 2 cases vaguely suggesting that taking a massive overdose of it...on top of who knows what other drugs, might have caused death in a teenager with unknown health issues.

That's supposed to scare us is it?

my larger point is that the banning of drugs makes more dangerous drugs available

Where did you suggest that in this article Mike? All I see is another "killer drug" article, only instead of heroin or Ecstasy or Mephedrone, it's 25i. Seeing as heroin, E and meph all turned out to be pretty safe, I wonder where 25i will be in 20 years time?

Ismene, you want to paint me as a prohibitionist hack and you're simply wrong, with no credible evidence to support your position.

I don't know if you're a prohibitionist or not Mike you've never talked about that. I'm just going on your approach in the article - the exact same approach every journalist in the last 50 years has used when talking about drugs (apart from Nick Davies). You list a series of deaths in an attempt to form an opinion about a drug - cunningly failing to mention that hundreds of thousands of people have taken it, thought "that was piss-weak" and never taken it again.

Consider this. Lets assume it's risky taking drugs. Lets assume taking drugs kills you...now say to yourself "SO FUCKING WHAT?". Do you think that because someone on this earth has managed to kill himself we should all run terrified in the opposite direction? They tried that approach with Ecstasy for 30 years and it didn't work. Why do you want to try it again by claiming 25i is the new killer drug?

Mountaineering kills you - would you start every article about mountaineering by listing every death of every mountaineer in the last year? Why is this your starting position with every drug article?
 
I've noticed and will point out here that no one has found any factual inaccuracies in anything I have ever written, at all

Well, you did represent all those 25i "deaths" as tho they were solid fact instead of stories reported in the media. You also failed to mention that the 21 year old guy who died after "one drop was put in his nose" had just "spent the night drinking vodka red-bulls". Now, I've heard of an awful lot of people dying after spending the night downing shot after shot of vodka red bulls.

I'm guessing you failed to mention the bit about him drinking enough vodka and caffeine to stun half of Moscow because it makes 25i sound a lot more dramatic and dangerous.

I'dve also questioned why he started "babbling incoherently" the "moment it was put on his nose" - that can't have been the 25i because it takes time before it enters your bloodstream. With his heart beating like a jackhammer after drinking caffine all night, so pissed up he could barely stand did he just have a panic attack and go into a seizure? If you'd told him "This is going to blow your mind" and dripped water up his nose would it have had the same effect as the killer drug 25i?

So, no, you havn't lied exactly, you just havn't told the truth.
 
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Mountaineering kills you - would you start every article about mountaineering by listing every death of every mountaineer in the last year? Why is this your starting position with every drug article?

Well said.

Your point about mountaineering was spot on. It's the same as the ecstasy/horse riding situation, but as we all know, these facts don't sell newspapers, do they?
 
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Wow cnt believe i missed this thread, tbh the war on drugs will never end, if we turn out like austrailia is and drugs are illegal before they are even made not only more lives will be ruined or lost but you will be lining criminals pockets even more !! Almost 8000 deaths from alcohol in the uk last year but u hardly see u making articles on the prohibition of ethanol? The government are greedy and pick the most addictive and dangorous drugs on the planet and then we have them banning chemicals without full knowledge on them because a few drug users die or have a bad experience, people(the government) want to ban these things, they know they dont appeal too the masses, they wont ever legislate them! Jus carry on feeding our world a highly toxic solvent watered down that kills near ten thousand a year (and rising) sprry for going off topic i jus very passionate about thw legality of some drugs!
 
And everything ismene has said is right mike your article is pretty LOL ur a shit reporter get a new job
 
Burned! ;)

I agree with Ismenes point too. I have often said they don't ban extreme sports which obviously have an inherent risk involved. But the moment you take a risk (as a consenting adult) by choosing to ingest a certain chemical... to have a different sort of 'experience' it's unacceptable? Bull shit!
 
I've just seen a picture of the guy at the festival who died instantly after taking "just one tiny drop up his nose" of 25i. He looks like a white Bob Marley. Now, I might be way off, but I'm gonna throw out the suggestion that maybe, just maybe, in addition to drinking enough vodka redbull to stun a charging gorilla...he...might...have..taken..an..absolute..fuckload..of..other..drugs too.
 
Burned! ;)

I agree with Ismenes point too. I have often said they don't ban extreme sports which obviously have an inherent risk involved. But the moment you take a risk (as a consenting adult) by choosing to ingest a certain chemical... to have a different sort of 'experience' it's unacceptable? Bull shit!

+1000 i mean i can walk down stairs injest some paracetemol (which im allergic too btw) and kill myself, do i want to? NO, but with proper dosage guidlines the people who arn't allergic adhere to the dosage guidlines (well not all i mean over 2500 people died in 2011 from paracetemol poisoning), with all this prohibition drugs like the "killer NBMO" are finding its way on to the streets and if lsd ecstasy was was legal much like alcohol and tobacco is, not much of this shit would go on, when are you going to see government your killing people more and more, but maybe you are trying to cut down the population ;) i know what you's guys are up too! FUCK YOU CAMERON BTW WHILE IM AT IT ! :D
 
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I've just seen a picture of the guy at the festival who died instantly after taking "just one tiny drop up his nose" of 25i. He looks like a white Bob Marley. Now, I might be way off, but I'm gonna throw out the suggestion that maybe, just maybe, in addition to drinking enough vodka redbull to stun a charging gorilla...he...might...have..taken..an..absolute..fuckload..of..other..drugs too.
I think this is pretty relevant. Tox reports requested by the coroner will usually identify other compounds, but the reporting of those as causal or contributory factors is debatable.

However, Mike's generally got a point about dose response being a significant predictor of harm in naive users. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take.
 
Hello Ismene,

This will be my last post on Bluelight for a while as I have other projects to attend to. I’ll quote two interviews from my book that best sum up where we are, as far as I see it.

Before I do that I think it’s important to note the selfishness of your position. Just because you are informed about the dangers of super-potent psychedelics does not mean that the wider world of drug users are. Some people are dying and overdosing, and a brisk: ‘Their problem, do some research’ – just doesn’t cut it for me.

My factual reporting that the laws prohibiting the use of drugs such as MDMA, LSD, cocaine, heroin, mescaline, mushrooms, amphetamines have prompted unprecedented innovation in the drugs market is indisputable. Potency is likewise increasing in direct relation to the number of new laws. Fact.

I believe the emergence of RCS in general and NBOMEs in particular on to the wider market is of grave concern and has already lead to many casualties, and will lead to many more.

Yes, “we all know that overdoses kill” but not all the world reads Bluelight. Your netbubble is as transparent as it is seemingly limiting to your understanding of the wider context these issues are now playing out in.

On the NBOME deaths, as a source, I trust Erowid and I use them; they have been working in the service of harm reduction for years and do not use scare tactics. Neither do I.

The emergence of the RC market from the obscurity of the raids of your namesake, Operations Ismene and Webtryp, to the physical high streets of the world, concerns me, and I think that any rational observer without an agenda would agree. It concerns me so much I spent a year writing a book about it.

My conclusion is that the only rational way forward is to reduce demand for RCs by experimenting with policy around traditional recreational drugs just as Portugal has.

I’d rather have people on acid and Ecstasy than any of the NBOMEs, and many of the 2Cs and 5-MEOs any day. I’d like that LSD and MDMA sold pure and labelled.

But even there, there’s a conflict, and that’s what the two good interviewees in my book showed me. One was with the biggest vendor of LSD and MDMA on the Silk Road, and another was with the Admin of SOS. I quote them below in full, as I did in my book, as they are reasoned, intelligent opinions that I agree with.

But my viewpoint is not black or white, there’s no simple answer.

I’d say it’s been nice debating with you, but it’s not really been a debate. You’re angry, and I get that, but I can’t engage with it or your points, never mind threats by others to be thrown down a lift shaft or to be told to get a new job.

So, here’s what I believe. (This is what journalists do – look out for it from now. They quote people from both sides of the debate in an attempt to foster understanding, as I did when I quoted in the Guardian a user who had cured their depression using MXE, and as I did on Radio 4 last week when I said many people enjoyed using ‘legal highs’ as the media insists on calling them.)

Admin from SOS said in Drugs 2.0:
“I don’t think it’s up to the government to judge any person for what they do with their own body in the privacy of their own home. In my opinion, the primary role of the government is to prevent violence. Is the prohibition of a substance absolutely guaranteed to prevent more violence? If the substance is sarin, I think the answer is yes. If the substance is marijuana? Absolutely no. The same goes for cocaine, heroin, 4-AcO-DMT, mephedrone, etc. Information should absolutely, unequivocally be free.

“It should never, ever be illegal to receive information. It should never, ever be criminal to give information. This is absolutely my most strongly held conviction, and one from which I doubt I will ever stray.”

Silk Road: MDMA dealer, quoted in Drugs 2.0
‘The biggest issue I have with legalization is quantifying the pros and cons, what information do you base your decision on? Which metric is most important? Is it addiction rates, acute risk, economic cost, family breakdown, crime rates? It’s easy to look at the gruesome prohibition-fueled civil war in Mexico, the private prison industry in the US, the gang-fighting over drugs that goes on in every city and draw the conclusion that legalization is the only humane and reasonable alternative, because all of those injustices are blatant and gruesome. It’s harder to weigh the less apparent consequences, the subtle personal issues that easy access to drugs brings,’ he said.

‘As a dealer/vendor I get to see a much closer view of these problems, both in myself and others, and frankly it often upsets me. Many times I’ve had to stop selling to clients because they developed serious addiction issues. I know people who use MDMA every week and suffer serious memory and cognitive problems because of it; people who can’t stop using coke despite not even enjoying it any more, people who have to pop Oxycodone just to make it through the day.

“Seeing it really wears me down. How many more people would there be like that if they could pop down to the convenience store and pick up an eight-ball of cocaine? Would they ultimately be better off if given access to whatever they wanted along with subsidized harm reduction and treatment programmes if needed? It’s not an easy question to answer at all. I used to think that people should ultimately have agency over their own bodies and what they put in them, that the world was overwhelmingly worse off with prohibition than without it. I still feel that way, but over the past few years my view has become much more conflicted.’

Where do you stand, Ismene? What’s your opinion or solution? Because so far, you’ve only stood on the sidelines and criticised; a bit like a miserable cheerleader with no pom-poms.
 
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Your point is well made in the book Mike! I just sold you another copy, an aquaintance of mine who works in Research Chemicals was unaware of it, so I sent them a link to my Amazon review & bingo, another sale! =D

Personally, although I consider your arguments imperfect, I'm with you is suspecting that there simply IS NO PERFECT sollution to the problems raised by the emergence of NPC's & the banning of classic drugs such as MDMA. However, everything that IS wrong with the current system & the way it's bringing about, & has already brought about, a huge change in the dangers associated with drugs use is argued beautifully in your book & I applaud you for your effort in increasing awareness of this in mainstream society, outside of RC/drugs culture.

My gf is presently finishing course work on drugs & music culture for a major London University & she has cited your work & evidence you've used about the dangers of new drugs in her latest piece. So your book is already being cited in a scholarly article!


Thank-you! ;)
 
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