Misc Alcohol deserves its own prefix here.

[Soulspark]

There is a very similar thread, which started out here, but was then moved to Support called "no subforum for alcohol?" started by a user named asecin. I realize this is close to double posting, but the only reason I post here is so that the mods on this forum can read the post. Brace yourselves, because this is a long post. I have quoted what I feel are the two most relevant posts from the aforementioned post here. If you would like to read the post in full, go to the Support forum.

I've actually never noticed this. I too would love to see an EtOH subforum. We'll see if it happens though. I agree with asecin. We here at BL have probably all drank, and probably all been very drunk. It may be that we do it so often, in fact, that is has become "vanilla", and we all overlook it. Thomas 29, I have to object to your notion that the fact that alcohol is legal should preclude it from having its own category. I know you mean it's own subforum, but even here, in other drugs, there is no alcohol "prefix". RC's (some of them) are legal and they have their own prefix.

EtOH is, although structurally simple, pharmacologically very complicated. It effects mainly GABA, but has effects on a whole ton of neurotransmitters to a lesser degree. This is why there is no antidote, like narcon for opiates, for example. There's so much we don't know about alcohol and it is one of the most widely used and widely studied drugs (yes, it's a drug people) out there.

It would give people who just drink a place for their answers. Many people in "other drugs" ask questions like, "Is it safe/fun to use *insert poster's DOC here* with alcohol? While we don't condone trying to make others' experiences more "fun" here at BL, silly questions like this can end up leading to harm reduction. For example someone might ask, "How cool is it to do coke and when you're drunk?" They may get a few "it's awesome posts", but then they could learn about cocoethylene in the next one, and how it is 15-20 more potent (IIRC) than coke alone. They might learn something new about what they should or shouldn't do. We've got to remember, we don't know how old users are unless they just say it. Some could be 14 or 15 and maybe just want to know what it's like to be drunk for the first time without a hard drug user making fun of them or warning them "don't start ever, or you'll end up just like me". It'd be a safer place for non drug users and younger users.

On the other side of the coin, some drinker may wonder, "I'm thinking of trying alcohol (his or her only substance) with coke. Is that a good idea?" As I stated before, since alcohol is so "vanilla" to us all now, hypothetically in this forum what could happen is the opposite. Not that he or she learns something which they should her shouldn't do, but that the poster learns nothing. In this situation, the cokeheads flock to this thread and start talking about cocaine, naturally. The fact that the OP only drinks gets overlooked, and soon the thread is hijacked and the OP is left with no answers.

I do believe asecin has a great idea. I think there should be an alcohol thread. Most of us drink. Most of our friends and family also do. I know how much the mods here love harm reduction (there's no reason why they shouldn't by the way), so if we were to think of people in our lives who have been harmed by substances alcohol surely would top that list. Sure herion users would say most of my friends are messed up bc of herion. Meth users would say the same about meth. However, I believe NONE of us could say that we don't know at least 1 person whose life has been ruined or greatly retarded by alcohol. It would certainly be relevant for all of us at one level or another.

So yes. I completely agree there should be an alcohol forum. For the four main reasons I've laid out above.
1. There is still so much to be learned scientifically. Some here at BL don't care about that, but to others, it is quite interesting. It stares us in the face at street corners, but pharmacologically speaking, we don't know a ton about it as asecin said. It could be a collaborative educational forum in part.

2. It will help people to learn about alcohol in social situations. What to do. What not to do. Because of the prevalence of alcohol in the world, this is an obvious plus.
Some users are young and really do just want to know about alcohol, not get made fun of by hard users (not to say hard users all make fun of this hypothetical curious highschooler, but some do). I've seen it happen.

3. Coincides with the previous, but it would give drinkers (not users) a place to find their answers. It would also help the other drugs board by "purifying" of hijacked threads. It seems to me that the more sub forums or prefixes there are, the fewer hijacked threads there would be. It'd make the mods' jobs easier by having to end fewer of these stolen threads, I would imagine.

4. Probably most importantly, it would aid in harm reduction. Certainly a heroin addict's lifestyle is far worse off than a college freshman with his first real bad hangover, however, due to the sheer prevalence of the drug, I believe it deserves it's own forum (or at the very least, prefix in Other Drugs". Alcohol, by the way, is a pretty harmful substance in itself. Some people (yes, even on BL) don't know you can die from not drinking if you have been drinking for so long. This drug is everywhere and just because it's vanilla doesn't mean it isn't harmful and doesn't need a place where its harm could potentially be reduced.

Long story short (though we're past that): I believe an alcohol subforum is an excellent one.

animal_cookie, a senior moderator in Support, then responds to myself and a few other users in a very detailed way, which I appreciate. He says (his replies are in red, I couldn't get the quote mechanism to work because this is a different forum).

"Yesterday 15:25
Originally Posted by asecin
easy way out eh alasdairm, just url us to past threads that never bared fruit just as you try to ruin this one
i suggest reading the thru the threads alasdairm linked to. you will see this has been discussed many times and the general consensus is that it is not needed.

soulspark, thank you for your well thought out response. i've tried to respond to most of your points below.

Originally Posted by Soulspark
It would give people who just drink a place for their answers. Many people in "other drugs" ask questions like, "Is it safe/fun to use *insert poster's DOC here* with alcohol? While we don't condone trying to make others' experiences more "fun" here at BL, silly questions like this can end up leading to harm reduction. For example someone might ask, "How cool is it to do coke and when you're drunk?" They may get a few "it's awesome posts", but then they could learn about cocoethylene in the next one, and how it is 15-20 more potent (IIRC) than coke alone. They might learn something new about what they should or shouldn't do. We've got to remember, we don't know how old users are unless they just say it. Some could be 14 or 15 and maybe just want to know what it's like to be drunk for the first time without a hard drug user making fun of them or warning them "don't start ever, or you'll end up just like me". It'd be a safer place for non drug users and younger users.

On the other side of the coin, some drinker may wonder, "I'm thinking of trying alcohol (his or her only substance) with coke. Is that a good idea?" As I stated before, since alcohol is so "vanilla" to us all now, hypothetically in this forum what could happen is the opposite. Not that he or she learns something which they should her shouldn't do, but that the poster learns nothing. In this situation, the cokeheads flock to this thread and start talking about cocaine, naturally. The fact that the OP only drinks gets overlooked, and soon the thread is hijacked and the OP is left with no answers.
i am wondering why people can't give complete answers to alcohol questions on OD. there is no rule that forbids people from discussing drugs interactions with alcohol.

I do believe asecin has a great idea. I think there should be an alcohol thread. Most of us drink. Most of our friends and family also do. I know how much the mods here love harm reduction (there's no reason why they shouldn't by the way), so if we were to think of people in our lives who have been harmed by substances alcohol surely would top that list. Sure herion users would say most of my friends are messed up bc of herion. Meth users would say the same about meth. However, I believe NONE of us could say that we don't know at least 1 person whose life has been ruined or greatly retarded by alcohol. It would certainly be relevant for all of us at one level or another.
the recovery forums handles a wide variety of threads about how alcohol has affect our member's lives. it is also where members can discuss how other substances have affected their lives.

So yes. I completely agree there should be an alcohol forum. For the four main reasons I've laid out above.
1. There is still so much to be learned scientifically. Some here at BL don't care about that, but to others, it is quite interesting. It stares us in the face at street corners, but pharmacologically speaking, we don't know a ton about it as asecin said. It could be a collaborative educational forum in part.
i am sure that ADD would welcome discussion about the science of alcohol.

2. It will help people to learn about alcohol in social situations. What to do. What not to do. Because of the prevalence of alcohol in the world, this is an obvious plus.
Some users are young and really do just want to know about alcohol, not get made fun of by hard users (not to say hard users all make fun of this hypothetical curious highschooler, but some do). I've seen it happen.
threads about alcohol and social situations exist across the board. the lounge, SO and DC all have threads about the social aspects of drinking.

3. Coincides with the previous, but it would give drinkers (not users) a place to find their answers. It would also help the other drugs board by "purifying" of hijacked threads. It seems to me that the more sub forums or prefixes there are, the fewer hijacked threads there would be. It'd make the mods' jobs easier by having to end fewer of these stolen threads, I would imagine.
i am not opposed to an alcohol prefix in OD. however, that is not a decision i can make.

4. Probably most importantly, it would aid in harm reduction. Certainly a heroin addict's lifestyle is far worse off than a college freshman with his first real bad hangover, however, due to the sheer prevalence of the drug, I believe it deserves it's own forum (or at the very least, prefix in Other Drugs". Alcohol, by the way, is a pretty harmful substance in itself. Some people (yes, even on BL) don't know you can die from not drinking if you have been drinking for so long. This drug is everywhere and just because it's vanilla doesn't mean it isn't harmful and doesn't need a place where its harm could potentially be reduced.
as i said above, there is plenty of discussion in the recovery forums about how alcohol affects our members lives.

 

[Soulspark]

I am grateful that my last post, lengthy as it was, was responded to in detail by a senior moderator, animal cookie. I am afraid I shall pester this thread again with another lengthy post, and would love for a moderator to comment on it (especially one who has the power to grant what I feel is a modest proposal). This post is actually an edit. I was going to say that EtOH deserves at least a prefix under OD, but possibly a board of its own. However, after looking at it more carefully, I believe that EtOH deserves quite justly its own prefix under OD, but not a board of its own. The reasons why I believe this shall be outlined below.

Let me start off by explaining why I think it does not deserve a board of its own. That reason would come back to my original idea that for many of us, it is simply too (I'll use the word again) "vanilla". If we look at what actually has a board of its own, we see that those comprise regional boards, boards for topics like relationships, sobriety, science, and other things that can be tied to drugs, but are not actually drugs themselves. I believe this is good, and while I don't visit those boards except sometimes ADD, I would say that they should certainly exist, as they direct the user exactly where to go for their query.

Now let's look at which drugs have their own boards. Steroids, ecstasy, cannabis, and entheogens are among them. My best guess as to why they have their own board is because they have their own culture. With few exceptions, there are no real clubs you can overtly join, or magazines to which you can subscribe that will enable you to be immersed in these subcultures with like-minded individuals, and for that reason, these drugs have their own boards. People talk about their experiences on mushrooms or LSD on the psychedelics board, and those users may find that enlightening.

Now does alcohol have its own subculture? Absolutely. Whether it is college bars, hipster-micro breweries, old-money wine clubs, or anything else in-between, EtOH has it's own culture. So, why does a board for it not belong on here? I would say that it doesn't because that need is already fulfilled, and it is able to be done so because alcohol isn't illegal. Not only that, but going back to my original point, alcohol for most of us is very vanilla. I do not think that a board dedicated solely to EtOH would have enough posts to warrant its own existence, because very few of us find it mystical anymore and don't have much to say about it, Besides nobody wants to hear about how drunk you were the other night. That's like talking on the telephone and saying to your friend, "the fish was this big" whilst holding out your arms to show him its size. However, I do believe that it needs a home on this site, and shouldn't just be thrown about wherever.

I think it deserves a prefix in OD. What else can you put it under? Misc? Misc seems to me reserved for non conventional ways to get high. Benzos? Benzos are benzos, and just because they act on GABA like EtOH, pretty much every other implication is different. Legally, socially, and even chemically, EtOH and benzos are different.

As far as my last post goes, animal_cookie ponits out that alcohol posts are allowed in many other places. He states,

"threads about alcohol and social situations exist across the board. the lounge, SO and DC all have threads about the social aspects of drinking… as i said above, there is plenty of discussion in the recovery forums about how alcohol affects our members lives."

I will not debate that posts about EtOH are acceptable in other places. However, that isn't to say that they belong there, and I believe that a place where EtOH posts belong is warranted. You're absolutely right, animal_cookie, when you say that no rules exist that preclude alcohol from being discussed. What this doesn't address is that people may feel discouraged from posting something EtOH related for fear of being accused of irrelevancy. I think EtOH is so prevalent and used in combination with other drugs (unfortunately, many of the times) that it deserves an area in which a poster who posts about EtOH can never be accused of being "off-topic".

BL is a great online community for information but as someone who doesn't post very often, it is my experience that it has a "hostile" feel to it. Not hostile as in petty, like a YouTube comment section, but it is hostile in that many users seem to be afraid to speak their mind for fear of getting modded. Now, in a lot of cases (pricing, sourcing) such modding in necessary. However, I've seen threads get closed or threatened of being closed (thereby shutting down all discussion) because someone felt the thread was going in a "harmful" direction and it was not even close to being headed that way. I've seen threads get closed (maybe not overtly for this reason) because they were simply boring to a mod. What does this have to do with EtOH? EtOH is boring to many of us, and it also doesn't mix well with a lot of drugs. Some (not all mods) seem to me, to be overly-sensitive when it comes to taking precautions to violating the TOS, especially when alcohol is involved in the topic. Giving it its own prefix, I feel, would at least let the mods know (from a professional and overseeing standpoint) what kind of thread they're going to be dealing with.

I get the distinct impression that the feel or attitude that most people perceive EtOH to have on these boards is one of irrelevance and obscurity. In real life, however, we all know EtOH is the antithesis of both of these things. It seems paradoxical, to me that BL, a community whose goals are to educate and reduce harm, wouldn't make any sort of effort to make the discourse of such a pervasive substance more conducive and accessible.

I don't think it is worthy of its own board because, although it certainly has its own culture, a site like this would not be too effective in catering to that culture in a non-harmful way (a wine aficionado magazine might be better for that, for instance). However, the sheer number of people who use EtOH, I say, warrants a home for it on this site. I say make that home a prefix in OD. Make it subject to all the same rules as every other board or prefix. Shut down any sort of abusive thread or one that encourages stupid or irresponsible behavior, by all means. There's no excuse for that in any board or prefix. The effort it would take to make this happen by those who have the power to do so would be minimal, and the benefits to all of us non mods, as well as the benefits to the mods, would be (I believe) much more than minimal. I do believe that alcohol deserves a prefix in OD. Just because something is allowed in many places doesn't mean its discourse (in a proactive, harm-reducing way) is encouraged. Something so common and so widely-used shouldn't be relegated to having to be scattered.

 

[Soulspark]

Whether you implement, or consider said changes, thanks for reading all that anyhow.

 

[Ksa]

Alcohol is good when you don't have Ether. Ether puts it to shame from all perspectives.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

I kind of agree. I don't think "ecstasy" needs its sub-forum, either.


...I think actually that they should either divide up things more or divide up things less. As it is, its not really "fair".

 

[Soulspark]

Alcohol is good when you don't have Ether. Ether puts it to shame from all perspectives.

I hope you read everything I posted and just appreciate irony. If not, this is exactly why alcohol needs its own prefix. Threads about it get hijacked easily. We find alcohol boring, so when it's brought up, we talk about something else and soon the OP's thread is gone.

 

[Soulspark]

That is, unless, you thought that EtOH meant Ether. EtOH just means ethanol, the kind of alcohol we consume.

 

[brutus]

Alcohol is good when you don't have Ether. Ether puts it to shame from all perspectives.

That comment makes little no sense. Ether is absolutely miserable in my experience.

This thread belongs in support. Closed.