The "hardness" of drugs.

[thatdreamer123]

I realize this should probably go in general drug discussion or whatever, but it has to do with psychs mostly. So i'll put it here.

Within my group of friends, most know I experiment, don't have a problem with it, and varying levels of judgment about it. I don't mind it.

Recently I got ahold of some very powerful ketamine. I was around a couple friends of mine, who also "do drugs", and we were chatting, somehow I mentioned something about how I had just gotten some Ketamine and found it very inetresting.

both friends were VERY shocked that I would even go near ketamine (although they know I have done many research chems, psychs, mdma, etc.). This is somewhat understandable because where I am from there is ZERO ketamine on the street, whereas places like the UK it's pretty rampant.

I do not believe for instant that either of them know a thing about ketamine other than that it is "horse/cat tranq" and that seems have negative connotations. But they both seemed to be pretty adamant that one should not be messing around with ketamine, I've gotten similar responses from friends who are more or less passive about my drugs use or do drugs themselves.

Both friends seemed to put ketamine on the same "pedestal" as heroin (which I would NEVER go near) or other drugs that have huge potential to be destructive.

This made me think, are these drugs I try more dangerous than I think? Is my perspective just so skewed from what people outside of this bubble here at bluelight (real life?)?

Is cramming my brain with harm reduction and reliable information simply going to create excuses to delve into new substances? Or am I being responsible? Because nobody I know experiments like I do, some close, but nobody as cautious yet eager at the same time.

So I ask you, how do you decide which drugs are "hard" and which are not? I had always sort of put ketamine on the same level as stuff like MDMA or other sort "mid-level" drugs that don't have a massive potential for problems, but should be handled with caution and should not be used too often.

Ack, I'm probably not posting this in the right place, it's just that this has been bothering me for a while now and I'm not sure who else to ask about this concept.

Thanks.

 

[kidklmx]

I get your thoughts, and anyone using drugs regularly should have them to some degree. Your friends, though, have probably only seen that Drugs Inc. episode. That's one of the shows/episodes I always refer to in regard to why most drug documentaries are so horrible, they make people close minded.

HOWEVER, Dissociatives have a pretty large abuse potential. Take a look at the MXE thread for example, that should give you an idea (no offense to you MXE users). So you should def. be cautious, though your friends can be a great safety net if you guys are open to each other.

 

[miscbrahh]

in terms of people i know, in order of least to most "unacceptable" common drugs: (not saying it's right or wrong, it's just what they think)

alcohol / tobacco > weed > mdma > mushrooms / lsd > cocaine > ketamine > prescription opiates > crystal meth > crack > > > > > IV heroin

 

[One Thousand Words]

Ketamine is also used on humans in medicine, particularly in intensive care if that makes your friends feel better.

With knowledge comes understanding. Just as you are horrified at using heroin, so it is natural for your friends to be apprehensive. It would be unwise to suggest that ketamine is a safe or benign drug, but when used correctly and in moderation millions of people can attest to it's recreational value.

 

[Solipsis]

@OP:

In my opinion, how 'hard' a drug is considered best reflects addiction potential and health risk potential.

Indeed, do not understimate ketamine and analogues because there are both addiction and health issues involved.

Ketamine is also used on humans in medicine, particularly in intensive care if that makes your friends feel better.

Ketamine's medical application only attests to its acute safety compared to other anaesthetics but when administered in a medical setting the long term health issues and addiction issues are not really involved so don't take that reassurance too far.

With knowledge comes understanding. Just as you are horrified at using heroin, so it is natural for your friends to be apprehensive. It would be unwise to suggest that ketamine is a safe or benign drug, but when used correctly and in moderation millions of people can attest to it's recreational value.

That last bit can be said about pretty much most serious / hard drugs and it would be rather foolish for people to get started with them if they did not have such recreational, functional or medicinal value.

But I agree generally that the best decision is made by finding out the risks and benefits, and weighing them. You need to weigh yourself as well, evaluate if there are signs that you are sensitive to addiction for example. One major trap is to somehow fool yourself into thinking that knowing that a drug is addictive exempts you from getting into trouble with it like others.

If you do decide to try something like it, be serious about it. Problems probably arise when there is a shifting point where you tell yourself there is no harm in it, or that it is too amazing not to increase the extent of your use.

You can find the positive potential of ketamine and analogues in a lot of places, I don't mean to ignore them by focusing on the bad here. But it remains tricky stuff unlike most typical psychedelics (that have little or no secondary action besides 5-HT2A agonism). It does not seem to be as dangerous as the hardest of drugs but it is somewhere along the way there...

 

[Anon0631]

 

[Incunabula]

pfff, Anon. What a complete fail that chart is.

1. LSD is clearly placed wrong. addiction potential and physical harm potential is clearly much closer to 0. The dangers of LSD are mental.

2. GHB!!!! it's clearly MUCH more addictive than that chart makes it out to be!! Just ask any one who ever got hooked.

3. 4-MTA? wtf, it's clearly more physically harmfull than it's made out to be ---->www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-MTA/
---->www.erowid.org/chemicals/4-MTA/

4. and what is up with khat? lol, less addictive than LSD? 8)

That chart is pure garbage.


This one is better:

 

[kidklmx]

Would put Alcohol on the same level as MDMA and Ketamine as well regarding abuse potential. Psychedelics should be a bit higher as well, have you seen the amount of people that trip weekly or more? It's quite a lot. All in all charts like this don't really work IMO. Compounds shouldn't really be compared this way, because they all act so differently and have different issues

 

[blazR]

Fagott, why are Mescaline placed higher than Ketamine regarding active/lethal dose?

 

[kidklmx]

Because you can't take it that far? Have always found mescaline dosages quite conservative in regards to how far people take most psychs. Don't forget it's still a phen and for the most part they aren't as forgiving as the rest.

Ketamine can be "safe" on dosages far higher than what you need for a K-Hole, though what this does for your kidneys I do not know. Any way, I think this was looking at LD50s rather than possible health issues.

 

[Incunabula]

All in all charts like this don't really work IMO. Compounds shouldn't really be compared this way, because they all act so differently and have different issues

I totally agree.

@blazR

I'm not going to defend that chart, as I didn't make it. But I still think it's loads better than the one Anon0631 posted.

it's hard to say with ketamine what is an active dose? and to put it up vs mescaline, in lethality, is kind of retarded......I'm sure more people died from ketamine, than from mescaline though.

Then on the other hand, ketamine should be very lenient on the Pulmonary System system and it shouldn't slow your heart beat very much. Which is why it's still used on humans ,in ambulances, after car crashes and such. if the doctors don't know the condition of the patient they apparently can consider other anaesthetics too risky. I think I read it on erowid.

 

[Reverend Random]

David Nutt's research on the relative dangers of various substances.

Dutch research that's very similar but what slightly different outcomes.

 

[Black]

and here's yet another chart that ranks drugs:

i think this is the most recent one from david nutt?

 

[Ismene]

In terms of health I suppose you could put tobacco at the very top. Then the problem with the rest is prohibition - pure heroin is probably the safest, least toxic drug known to man. You can inject it into babies and grannies with cancer. You can take twice as much as you're supposed to and you'll probably just fall asleep for a while, take twice as much paracetomol as you're supposed to and your liver dies. But obviously when you're taking black market heroin it's not pure and not the same effect.

I think K is very safe - you can inject it in far greater quantities during anasthesia than any recreational user will ever take and have no difficulties.

I think drugs that you have in your system pretty much all the time are liable to have the most effect on your physically - so I'd put tobacco and maybe steroids as the most dangerous. I think psychedelics are harmless. Being addicted to things like street quality crack and heroin is going to affect your health in the long term. Although having said that there are soldiers who have been addicted to heroin through medical treatment for wounds, and as long as they're prescribed pure heroin they are in excellent health well into their old age.

So I don't really see any drug as "hard" except tobacco which seems to have inevitable negative effects on your health.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

It's good to have friends who care and share an opinion...you should probably listen to them. But if you are going to experiment with drugs then learn all you can so you can be a 'know it all' like many of us here...then you can take what your friends say in its proper context...and make your own informed decisions without wasting too many tears (yours and theirs) over what others are telling you.

Do your friends drink? The hardest drug there is, is alcohol. I base that on its immediate effects...its long term effects, and the fact that withdrawal from it can kill. Even heroin doesn't kill when taken away from the addict. I find most 'anti-drug' people are drinkers. Not sure my point here, I guess I just have always found that strange.

 

[Si Dread]

That's an interesting collection of graphs there gang! Good job

Anti-drug people are drinkers? Lol Explains everything huh? I agree completely, I've often said this here on BL but I've used many, many different drugs all my adult life but the drug that has made me the most out of my head at the time, the most unwell during use & the most unwell afterwards is by sme stretch, alcohol. I've fucked up with other drugs & made mistakes like everyone else, but those mistake are most consistant with alcohol than with any other drugs. So far...

 

[Incunabula]

Absolutely. I've stopped drinking alcohol. too many black outs 8(

That last graph posted by Black is really good.

 

[kidklmx]

Yeah I agree, but alcohol can feel really nice when you're in that limbo of post-tipsy, pre-drunkenness. It's just that people tent to take way too much. It's hard to stop drinking when you're drinking lol

 

[my3rdeye]

This one is better:

I disagree that K is less addictive than pot or MDMA. You can do K every day, most MDMA abusers don't do it every day. I am surprised how many young people inject K, to me needles seem like fiend like behaviour. Any other drug people inject it because snorting/smoking/swallowing isnt doing it. I admit to feeling anyone who Injects something is taking a step up the addiction ladder regardless of substance. I am not going to say K is somehow different and shooting it isnt that bad.
Personal chemistry has a lot to do with addiction. I don't find drinking or even cocaine to be habit forming. Other peope get destroyed by the same substances. My friends have the attitude that LSD and K are for kids and booze and cocaine are the adult drugs. They tend to be fairly ignorant about RC's or anything new.