Bupe Day 15 CT off Suboxone (6mg), Reflections and General Advice (it's not that bad)

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

I have been reading and researching everywhere about suboxone w/d for the past two weeks (taper and CT). I chose to post on this particular forum because I have seen the least self-pitying and disinformation about going CT off suboxone here.

I realize there are many factors at play here, and my particular situation may be different, and some of my "opinions" are personal and not meant to make anyone defensive about their choices.

I started on 4mg of sub this September after I got arrested for conspiracy to distribute class A. This was after 1.75 years of a moderate heroin snorting addiction. Getting arrested was NOT ENOUGH to make me want to be clean, so I continued to use and abuse and eventually got suspended from the program in early November for 2 weeks because I literally had not given ONE clean piss test by that point.

Thanksgiving 2012 was the last time I used a short acting opiate (snorted 5 bags H). After that, I got back into the sub program and they upped me to 8mg and I lived in a comfortable state of numbness until March 5th, 2013, when I got an awesome job offer starting in April, and decided that I wanted my emotions and higher level thinking abilities back.

Subs caused me all types of awful psychological symptoms including: depression, anxiety, and paranoia. Subs were barely clinically tested before being put on the market and approved by the FDA or w/e. This means, there are a shit load of unreported symptoms of being on bupe, especially for long-term maintenance. FYI, the director of the sub program I got released from yesterday gave me the statistic that approx. 80% of the bupe is actually absorbed by your body via the sublingual strips (helps for calculating half lifes).

I was alternating between 8mg and 4mg every other day (start of a planned taper) when I just stopped taking any subs and decided CT was worth it in my situation.

Days 1-7: Yeah, it gets "worse and worse" each day, but it was never THAT BAD! By day 6, I had a piss test at my sub program and told them about my decision to stop. They were very supportive, and told me that my levels of bupe were already "below the margin of error" which is like .2mg I believe for their urine test.

Days 7-14: Insomnia, lethargy, paranoia and lack of appetite are still affecting me, but considering I got 75% of these symptoms from being ON SUBS anyways, it wasn't hard at all for me.

Today (Day 15): Today I feel fucking phantastic actually!!! It's the endurance and "ups and downs" that our addict brains aren't used to, so you really need a huge sense of motivation to live a healthy and sober lifestyle (fluids (mix of powerade and water), eat right, vits/AAs, exercise, don't chill with junkies, etc.).

My clonidine/vitamin/supplement/amino acid protocol (placebo effect possibility for some, began taking vits and AAs 1 week before jump off):
-Clonidine (got from primary care doc, 2 week script .1 mg in am .1 mg in pm, started on day 3)
-N-Acetyl Tyrosine (Jarrow Formulas, 350mg x 4 in AM on empty stomach and water, do this for all AAs)
-L-Glutamine (500mg x 4 in AM, GNC brand)
-Amino 1000 (full spectrum amino acid blend from GNC...clutch btw, 3 of them 3x a day)
-Super B Complex (CVS brand with Vitamin C, 2 in AM)
-Vitamin D (liquid 5 drops in small amount of water, esp cloudy days)
-Odorless Fish Oil (CVS, 1200mg 2 in AM)
-Daily Multiple Vitamin (CVS, 1-2 in AM)
-D-Ribose powder (10mg or so mixed into juice, water or powerade, I do it before work outs).
-CA/MG/ZN 3 in 1 (2 in AM)
-Kava Root (relaxation and sedation, take as directed, possible liver side affects)
-Passion Flower (4x 200mg caps when needed for anxiety)
-500 mg naproxen (old script, helps with RLS and inflammation, 2x in AM, Aleve is fine)
-Bengay as needed for RLS and soreness during first week
-Alpha-Lipoic Acid (200 mg GNC brand, 2x in AM)
-Bananas or Potassium supplement
-Quarter of high quality marijuana for appetite and anxiety (debatable, but clutch for me, been through a quarter of MMJ since my jump off)
-Between 10-12 hours of your favorite music a day (movies or tv can work too)

PM ONLY:
-Melatonin (GNC brand, 6mg for sleep, make sure you are in darkness after taking)
-Benadryl
-Immodium AD (loperamide HCL, I only took this in small amounts when physical w/ds were worst)
-Seroquel (not proud of this one, 25mg puts me out even in the worst insomnia though, I would never take more than that or stay on longer than 2 weeks max).


Important note: tapering down to as low as you can go before jumping off may decrease your w/d duration and symptoms. Not as sure about PAWS though (Post Acute W/Ds), I think PAWS duration and severity is determined more by your total length of drug abuse, not necessarily taper routine.

I had 8 suboxone 8mg strips in my possession yesterday, and I had absolutely no cravings or desire to take them. In fact, I can honestly say I have no felt one craving towards any opiate YET.


Most important:
1) Don't listen to anonymous online junkies (past or present) for support during your fragile w/d period (they could be lying or purposely spreading bad info).
2) When you want it bad enough, it is easy and just get off as quickly and efficiently as you are able/driven to.
3) The power of positive thinking and a healthy lifestyle is stronger than opiates in high enough doses. Period.
4) Meditation/self reflection. Recovery is about self discovery and realizing why a clean life is worth the relatively short amount of pain and uncomfort to you detoxing from bupe.

If anyone wants to know more about my exercise routine or other specifics of my experience, let me know and I'll be happy to answer.

tl;dr my main objective in this thread is to answer the question: "Why do people make it seem so impossible to stop Suboxone cold turkey?" Is it big pharma spreading dis-info again? Or are the people on these forums really just that toxic and self-pitying? Again, not trying to make people defensive, just looking for real answers here. Why was this so easy for me?

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

... Everyones body is different, everyones habit is different, (yours was pretty minor in the grand scheme of things), and people are at different points in their lives when they try and detox..

So, just because you may have had an easy time (for now), doesn't mean that people who say it's harder are spreading "misinformation" and deliberately trying to set people up for failure...

So again.. congrats that it was so easy for you this time, thats great... but it doesn't work that way for everyone..

And by the way.. I don't think less than a month of time off suboxone entitles you to say you've beaten it and it was just so easy, that how could anyone have trouble?...

 

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

... Everyones body is different, everyones habit is different, (yours was pretty minor in the grand scheme of things), and people are at different points in their lives when they try and detox..

So, just because you may have had an easy time (for now), doesn't mean that people who say it's harder are spreading "misinformation" and deliberately trying to set people up for failure...

So again.. congrats that it was so easy for you this time, thats great... but it doesn't work that way for everyone..

And by the way.. I don't think less than a month of time off suboxone entitles you to say you've beaten it and it was just so easy, that how could anyone have trouble?...

Thanks for the congrats! I completely respect and follow what you're saying. Some clarifications (it's always hard to get out all the appropriate facts in one post):

-I still have a long way to go of PAWS and this positivity will likely burn out eventually
-It wasn't "easy" by any stretch of the imagination, but compared to half of the horror stories of CT sub cessation online, it has been a walk in the park so far.
-I feel extremely lucky to have the opportunity to stop opiate abuse at such an early age and after 2 years of addiction and maybe 6 months total of complete physical dependence
-My support system has been incredible these past few months
-I lost my feeling of "helplessness" when I received 2 job offers recently, this triggered my motivation to jump off
-I am moving 1,000 miles away this weekend and starting on Monday, so I have no option to sit around and feel sorry for myself anymore
-I DO NOT go to meetings of any sort, but do participate in 1-on-1 substance abuse counseling


Other things that have helped psychologically:

-Marking big "0's" on a calendar I can see from bed has been a HUGE psychological help to me since I stepped off, I look at that shit constantly for motivation.

-Just brainwash the shit out of yourself with positivity. Surround yourself with positive people, places and things. That's my plan at least, and I wanted to report that it's helping a ton so far. I hope this can even help one person get motivated to quit subs.

-Learn to be self-aware of your symptoms and be able to separate them and identify them.

Disclaimer: I don't believe I would be where I am now without Suboxone, it helped me get out of the lifestyle, which was the hardest aspect for me. Perhaps more evidence that I never had a full-blown dependency to opiates...

Also, any tips for getting past the PAWS these next few weeks while I'm going to be starting a full-time desk job would be much appreciated.

 

[LOGan1314]

*facepalm*

 

[laCster]

shit you jumped at 6mg??? i get withdrawal from jumping off at 1mg cold-turkey


edit: this thread is better for trip reports IMO

 

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

shit you jumped at 6mg??? i get withdrawal from jumping off at 1mg cold-turkey


edit: this thread is better for trip reports IMO

Thanks for the input man. Yeah, my last 5 doses of sub on the calendar in mgs are: 8,4,4,8,4 then right to 0mg.


Trust me, the w/ds were there, but something about my particular situation has made it so much easier to stay strong psychologically and avoid cravings, and even the physical w/ds weren't as bad this time. I just wanted to get my story out there, especially after seeing all the negativity online about CT sub detox.


I'm already regretting posting this though, it's just making me more paranoid and anxious.

 

[Mass08]

O_O you my friend are an anomaly!

 

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

O_O you my friend are an anomaly!

So far at least. I'm convinced it's either the vitamins/supplements/health measures I am taking, or I successfully brainwashed myself somehow to think like a 15-year clean NA freak somehow. I've had some pretty intense and trippy introspective moments for example while sitting by a river in the woods during my daily 2 mile walk, and closing my eyes and thinking back to when I was actually happy before drugs and feeling emotions again and remembering old memories. That was powerful and makes me want more of it because it was better than subs ever made me feel...or dope for that matter. It comes and goes though, and exercise is usually the catalyst.


Well, I'm signing off for the night. Going hiking tomorrow with a friend, need a good night's rest! Getting high on mountains!

I will be back to update on my progress and answer any questions.

 

[BupeTroop]

Be hardcore addicted to IV heroin, oxy, and hydromorph for 5 years, and then on subs for 3 years daily, and then come back and tell me its as easy as you say.

I will commend you for getting off at such an early stage of addiction tho. Believe me, 1.75 years is a hell of alot easier to drop then being addicted for multiple years like the majority of us were. You're a lucky one for sure, and congrats on your sobriety.

 

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

Thanks BupeTroop! I guess the relatively short length of my opiate addiction is probably the main reason why my sub detox was so painless. Good luck to you and your journey with Suboxone!


Day 17 today. Being in nature yesterday and sweating and exercising all day with an old friend was an incredible experience. The weather was perfect, and I was completely comfortable and able to keep up with my friend who is in much better physical shape than me in general (he works landscaping vs. me a computer nerd).

Every day gets better and better after the physical w/ds fade (after 9 days tops for me).

Most importantly, I have managed to sleep the last 2 nights without any seroquel. Instead, I took a few Benadryl and 2 3mg Melatonin, shut off the lights, focused on monotonous things, and was asleep within 30 minutes. I think this is a sign the insomnia is beginning to fade. I have a ton more energy in the morning now that I have stopped using 25mg of seroquel for sleep. I only had one night during these 17 days where I got less than 6 hours of sleep, and it was right in the middle of physical w/d.

The paranoia and anxiety are definitely starting to fade too, but they come and go, like most psychological symptoms and PAWS stuff in general. The less you think about it and focus on it, the easier it will get. Distracting yourself with healthy things can be annoying and agitating when all you want to do is lay down and feel sorry for yourself, but it is more important than any other aspect imo.

Will update again on Day 20 or so.

 

[Mass08]

Do you sleep through the night or in broken stages? I sleep for like 1.5hr increments 4 times a night, super frustrating.

 

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

Do you sleep through the night or in broken stages? I sleep for like 1.5hr increments 4 times a night, super frustrating.

During physical w/d, I would certainly wake up a few times during the night, ESPECIALLY during the RLS nights.

But I would rub on some bengay, chug water, and pop some advil or other pills from my first post like Kava Root then get in that monotonous trance and pass right back out. I think the placebo effect of just swallowing ~20 pills every AM is the strongest drug I've taken during w/d, I feel immediately better after I take my supplements (even though none of what I'm taking is particularly fast acting).

I hate to recommend an anti-psychotic with strong addictive tendencies for bupe w/d...but seroquel saved my ass in this whole insomnia aspect of w/d. 25mg is the most effective dose for sleep for me personally. The first time I took like 100mg while I was still on subs a few weeks ago and I was just in awake zombie mode. But 25mg? 7 hours of sleep every time, no waking during night. I am a very deep sleeper too, and lately I have not been waking during the night at all, even after stopping the seroquel.

Benzos are a TERRIBLE idea for sub detox IMO because they don't allow your body to reach healthy levels of REM sleep and you will feel tired and lethargic for way longer than someone detoxing w/o benzos.

 

[lenses]

Stop taking N-acetyl-l-tyrosine, that stuff will just make you really terrible and uptight. Whenever I take it (even like 250mgs) my blood pressure goes up and I get real unpleasant.

Sounds like you have it down , ey? Look into kappa opiod agonists for help with long term cravings and PAWS (nigella sativa oil is my favorite).Sub withdrawl goes on sooooooo long.

-lenses

 

[RedRum OG]

Man I've been putting of kicking subs for so long. Even after over a year I never quite felt "stabilized" or totally "well". but I was using very, very pure tar very consistently IV for almost 2 years.

I'm hoping since I still felt some PAWS this last year even on 8mg sub/day, kicking won't be that bad, especially with immodium and maybe kratom. No matter how hard I try I can't lower my dose, and I've tried very hard, very many times, so my best bet is to just jump off(Even though every time I post something along these lines I get at least 5 posts "omg kratom will SO not be enough jumping off 8mg, have you ever thought about tapering first?"

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Man I've been putting of kicking subs for so long. Even after over a year I never quite felt "stabilized" or totally "well". but I was using very, very pure tar very consistently IV for almost 2 years.

I'm hoping since I still felt some PAWS this last year even on 8mg sub/day, kicking won't be that bad, especially with immodium and maybe kratom. No matter how hard I try I can't lower my dose, and I've tried very hard, very many times, so my best bet is to just jump off(Even though every time I post something along these lines I get at least 5 posts "omg kratom will SO not be enough jumping off 8mg, have you ever thought about tapering first?"

Get down to as low of a sub dose as possible. Realistically, after being on subs for a while, you shouldn't hop off any higher than .25mg's, preferably .125mg. Even then it wont be a walk in the park but much easier than if you did it at 1mg or higher.

 

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

Stop taking N-acetyl-l-tyrosine, that stuff will just make you really terrible and uptight. Whenever I take it (even like 250mgs) my blood pressure goes up and I get real unpleasant.

Sounds like you have it down , ey? Look into kappa opiod agonists for help with long term cravings and PAWS (nigella sativa oil is my favorite).Sub withdrawl goes on sooooooo long.

-lenses

Awesome! Thanks I need to do some research on kappa agonists, I ran into nigella sativa oil a couple times in my research, but I never saw it helped with PAWS or why people were recommending it.

I am sort of used to the "caffeine buzz" and "jitters" I get from N-acetyl-l-tyrosine by now. I agree that it could worsen anxiety because of the jittery and "mind racing" feeling I get from it, but I need my brain to be at mach 10 for Monday so I think I'm going to keep at it for now. Note there is also a fair amount of l-tyrosine in my Amino 1000 blend, so I agree that I need to cut my dose of the N-acetyl.


Haven't figured out how to multiple quote in one post yet...


Mr Scag has a great point about tapering. If you've been on opiates or subs for a while, I would definitely discourage trying to go CT off 6mg like I did. However, I would taper faster than the clinics tell you, and the longer it takes to taper, the longer your PAWS will be and you'll just be making recovery a longer process if you draw it out for months and months. GL RedRum, I hope you can see the light of being opiate-free someday soon. Try doing 8mg/6mg every other day for a while. Your body shouldn't even notice, but your mind will if you let it.

Day 18, slept with NO sleep aid at all last night. Not even melatonin or benadryl. I was physically exhausted too though, we'll see how these next two nights go before I start my job.

Thanks for all the support and advice everyone!

 

[Rob27shred]

Congrats @wake of the flood on getting clean. But your attitude about it could be your downfall. Like everybody has been saying your addiction to opiates was definitely a mild one & you probably weren't truly physically dependant on it for over a year. The first time I quit H I was in a similar position & quit it CT. Managed to stay clean for a little over a year afterwards but I had the same attitude about it as you do know. I thought it was easy compared to the stories I heard & began thinking I was different to other people with opie addiction. This line of thought lead me back into using cause I thought I could now control it. Well it is now almost 8 years since then & although I do not run the streets anymore I am still on suboxone maintenance to this day. Just don't get to headstrong about it & realize that your addiction was not that bad & that's why it was easy for you to quit. If you start thinking your stronger or different from everybody else when it comes to opiate dependence I can guarantee you that it will come back to bite you. Not trying to belittle you in any way, just giving you a stern warning since I went through a similar situation & let my ego bring me back down. Good luck with staying clean & your new job!

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Day 18, slept with NO sleep aid at all last night. Not even melatonin or benadryl. I was physically exhausted too though, we'll see how these next two nights go before I start my job.

That's a good sign and probably a huge relief too. One of the worst parts about detoxing and the remaining PAWS symptoms is not being able to sleep. God, it makes me insane. Ha. So if you're finally able to sleep, you're in a really good place.

 

[Wake_of_the_Flood]

Congrats @wake of the flood on getting clean. But your attitude about it could be your downfall. Like everybody has been saying your addiction to opiates was definitely a mild one & you probably weren't truly physically dependant on it for over a year. The first time I quit H I was in a similar position & quit it CT. Managed to stay clean for a little over a year afterwards but I had the same attitude about it as you do know. I thought it was easy compared to the stories I heard & began thinking I was different to other people with opie addiction. This line of thought lead me back into using cause I thought I could now control it. Well it is now almost 8 years since then & although I do not run the streets anymore I am still on suboxone maintenance to this day. Just don't get to headstrong about it & realize that your addiction was not that bad & that's why it was easy for you to quit. If you start thinking your stronger or different from everybody else when it comes to opiate dependence I can guarantee you that it will come back to bite you. Not trying to belittle you in any way, just giving you a stern warning since I went through a similar situation & let my ego bring me back down. Good luck with staying clean & your new job!

Great advice, I was hoping to get a response from someone who could relate to how I feel and has recorded future data too. I admit that my way of thinking could lead to relapse at a later date when everything in my life isn't working out seemingly so well. I'm not going to let that happen though.

Day 20 update as promised. Staying strong and feeling incredible after my first day at work %)

My co-workers are awesome!!! Even the bosses and HR people are super laid back, and no one asked me anything about my fucked up past, they all just seemed really happy to have me join their team.

I slept a record (since March 5) 9 hours last night! I took 6mg melatonin and drank 2ml of passion flower extract mixed with water before bed (I ran out of passion flower capsules as referenced in first post and bought the liquid form yesterday at Vitamin World for cheap. I got another <6 hour night sleep the night before last night though...definitely anxiety induced. But I more than made up for it now.

Could not find black seed oil (nigella sativa oil) recommended by Lenses anywhere around here. There aren't any good holistic medicine stores here, so luckily I brought most of what I needed with me. I'm going to order the black seed oil online tonight, it seems to be almost a miracle drug for PAWS from what I read about it...I'll let you know how it works. I also got some Ashwagandha extract (300 mg) even though I am not really sure why I did that or what it's for yet.

Being at work and around positive people all day was the best medicine I have taken so far. I didn't even realize I was 20 days CT off suboxone until I got home and saw my calendar and remembered you guys soon after

Posting my experience here and linking it to two people I care deeply about who are still on Suboxone has been incredibly satisfying too, so thanks for putting up with my rambling updates and crazy methodology and way of thinking.

One more VERY important supplement I take that I completely forgot about mentioning is Adrenal Support by NaturaBio. I found 60 tablets at whole foods for cheap. Not only do they help with energy and to repair your adrenal glands that opiates severely damage, but you can put them under your tongue to dissolve just like a Suboxone. I take them after all my pills in the AM and just let it sit in my mouth until they are almost totally gone.

Ok, that's it for now. I still believe that every day has gotten better since after day 9 for me. Not counting factors like feeling poor on Sunday because of a terrible night of sleep (but it helps to realize that even "normal" people feel that way after a bad night of sleep).

 

[Mass08]

Dude im so jealous your sleeping on day 18. I just went through night 16 off heroin and I'm getting like 4 hours a night with numerous sleep aids. Very frustrating.

Also wake if you look at all the sub withdrawal horror stories being posted in OD the past 2 days you'll see how lucky you really are