Short term user needs help with Insomnia, please help.

[sniper5252]

I searched for answers but my situation seems a little different than most since my time of use seems to be a lot shorter than others. I abused 10mg/325 percocets (30-90mg a day) for 1 1/2 months mixed in with 20mg oxycontin for about a week (60mg a day), plus IV diauldid for about 5 total days while in the hospital. I have abused pills in the past but not for long periods of time and never really suffered and withdrawal symptoms. I am on day 8 of no opiates after a fast taper and seem to be done the physical stuff. I believe I am in the PAWS stage. I have been depressed, bored, anxious, jittery all at the same time. I also am having terrible insomnia. I went to the family doctor who gave me (30) 1mg Clonazepam to take as needed for sleep. This was on day 4 i went to the doctor. I took them for two days but after reading a bunch of forums i stopped because i was worried about addiction to the drug or the drug actually slowing the healing process in the brain from the opiate damage. It also did put me to sleep but it was a very broken sleep and not for more than about 4-5 hours. I then tried the natural route (mostly) sleepytime tea with valerian root, melatonin and nyquil one night and benedryl the next night.

I got to sleep but it was a very broken sleep constantly waking up similiar to the Clonazepam with a total of 4-5 hours of "sleep".

My questions to you guys are pretty simple:

1. Will me taking the Clonazepam to fall asleep slow the natural healing process of my brain after what the opiates did? Will I become dependent on the Clonazepam and once its gone just start on the insomnia again even with a taper off of it?

2. Do these natural remedies actually do anything for anyone? It seems if I didn't add benedryl or nyquil i didn't think i would fall asleep. If so what worked best for you?

3. Should I just stop with all the medicines and natural remedies and just deal with it. Should I just lay in bed until i finally fall asleep, even if I never fall asleep and eventually I will get back to normal or should I try something else?

My mind is racing or anything at night time, its just that i am not tired. Also what may be adding to it is that this all stems from a back injury and it is keeping me out of work so I am stuck in the house all day and can't do much while trying to recover other than walk at the gym for 30 mins.

I hope anyone can give insight since my length of use isn't as long as a lot of others, but it is definitely affecting me even with only a month and a half of use. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

 

[Venrak]

It's great that you had the resolve to end your physical dependance and that a quick taper worked out for you!

Clonazepam will help induce sleep, but will screw with your ability to fall into and stay in REM sleep. It is arguable to say that a full sleep cycle every night would promote a good recovery, and that you should abstain from using drugs as much as possible.

Your anxiety will be affected by your quality of sleep, so you need to find the right balance. I would continue taking the melatonin before bed, and would take .5mg of clonazepam on nights you really need it. You don't want to rely on the crutch of benzos to get to sleep, rather use it on those nights here and there that are sleepless after a few attempts. If you are having trouble with anxiety, your clonazepam has a long enough half life that there should be some anxiolytic effect the next day, but i think your best bet is to try to get through your anxiety without medicating with the clonazepam specifically for that. It's easy to get into the mindset that you need medication to live through your anxiety.

If you do at times need some extra anxiety relief, the sleepytime herbal tea you mentioned more than likely contains chamomile, which can act as a natural anxiety medication. Don't be afraid to steep two teabags at once if you need a stronger effect.

One thing to consider is your physical activity level during the day; if you are not very active during the day, it is normal to have trouble falling asleep. Tire yourself out as much as you can during the day sothat when you hit the pillow, you fall asleep because you're tired. I understand you have physical limitations because of your back injury, but there are definitely activities you can find to do around the house or your neighborhood. you mention you walk 30 minutes a day at a gym; does it have to be at the gym, or could you take short walks around the neighborhood throughout the day, or go for a bike ride? If youput your mind to it, i know you will be able to come up with a slew of activities to keep you occupied, tire you out, and raise your endorphin levels.

With regards to just forcing yourself to stay in bed until you fall asleep...When has that actually worked? If you can't fall asleep within a reasonable amount of time, say 45 minutes, you should get up and do something like make a light snack (with chamomile tea ) and pick up a book, avoid bright lights and video/display screens, and then slip back into bed.

Addiction to the benzodiazepine is a concern, I'll admit. That is why you want to use them sparingly. With your dosing schedule it is relatively minor, but there none the less. As was mentioned, the specific half-life of clonazepam is long enough to keep some of it in your system at all times if you dose even as sparingly as every other day, which compounds the risk, but doctors usually have this in mind, especially when dealing with patients who have history of dependance. How closely are you being followed by the Rxing doctor? Have you spoken to them about their plan to get you off the drug?

 

[sniper5252]

I like the idea of trying two bags of tea, I'll try that tonight with 9mg of melatonin. When i was prescribed the Clonazepam my doctor did explain the dangers of the medication, laid out a tapering program down to how i can equally cut the pills into equal .5mg parts. However, my main goal is getting back to "normal" and that is all I want to do. That is why i do not want to take the medication because i don't want to put anything into my body that could slow the natural healing process. I have been on an amino acid proctool as well and am considering giving up on that and going to only a multi vitamin and fish oil so that i do all I can to fix my body/brain.

But can you explain this to me....why am I not sleeping?? What is the cause of it? I don't understand and all the research i do on it seems to turn into a thread on drug use so i get nowhere. What exactly is going on in my body/brain that is keeping me from my normal sleep pattern and what can I do to fix it if anything, and if I can't then how long does it take?

 

[Venrak]

The way i see it, without getting into a debate on what exact chemical processes are at play, is that the human brain is a system. Like all systems, it is made up of structures, which are inter-related in such a way that the state of one influences another so as to promote equilibrium and systemic integrity. Now, when you introduce another structure (opiates) to a system , all the others are going to change to compensate for the imbalance and in time systemic equilibrium will be attained once again. When that new structure is taken out (discontinuation of opiod therapy) the system is going to be thrown off (sleeping troubles, anxiety, the slew of PAWS symptoms) until specific structures (like endorphin production, receptor density) modify themselves, and system regains equilibrium again.

So this implies that the least chemical assistance you take during this period, the better it will be. But that doesn't take into account the secondary concequences of not medicating at all, like increased anxiety and cognitive difficulties from not getting enough sleep.

Good plan for tonight. Also, omega-3 fatty acids have been shown to have positive effects on general cognition and mood, anxiety etc. Make sure you do some research on a good multivitamin, as a lot of them are garbage.

Good luck, and sweet dreams

 

[sniper5252]

I have actually settled on a very good multivitamin in addition to my fish oil so i have my omega-3's covered too. One last question for you and I will leave you alone, I am just loving all the info. I have researched them to death and it seems that both supplements sam-e and 5-htp are both natural. I understand to take one or the other and not both but would you reccommend one? I also know not to take the Clonazepam if I were to take one. Do you think either would actually promote faster healing or would or is it just a waste of money? Thank you again for all your input!

 

[Venrak]

I would avoid that sam-e stuff... just going off the possible side effects of anxiety and mania, coupled with the fact that it is possibly a DNA alkylating agent...

5htp may help with your anxiety and sleep by increasing your serotonin levels. But that's just another thing you will have to worry about down the line, and it also does not play nice with dextromethorphan.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

1. Will me taking the Clonazepam to fall asleep slow the natural healing process of my brain after what the opiates did? Will I become dependent on the Clonazepam and once its gone just start on the insomnia again even with a taper off of it?

It can slow your recovery in some ways, and it's very possible it can just postpone the insomnia, but as Venrak said, getting sleep is also very important, so I would advise using the clonazepam only when you truly need it. Becoming dependent on clonazepam is NOT something you want; whether or not you will become dependent depends on how much you take, how often, and for how long (as well as your unique brain/body of course). Clonazepam gives a shitty quality of sleep but it's still better than no sleep.

2. Do these natural remedies actually do anything for anyone? It seems if I didn't add benedryl or nyquil i didn't think i would fall asleep. If so what worked best for you?

Natural remedies do help for many people. I find them to work best combined with non-drug techniques and patience. Some that I have found helpful include (don't take these with the clonazepam IMO) kava, quality california poppy extract (it's not the opium poppy), passionflower extract, l-lysine. Also the following are good but not dramatic or rapid, however I think magnesium (preferably chelated), calcium, potassium, zinc, and Omega-3s are all good ideas for opioid WD.

3. Should I just stop with all the medicines and natural remedies and just deal with it. Should I just lay in bed until i finally fall asleep, even if I never fall asleep and eventually I will get back to normal or should I try something else?

No, most sleep therapists do not advise just endlessly lying in bed unable to sleep because that can be bad for anxiety, the insomnia can build on itself, and your brain can get conditioned to associate lying in bed with not sleeping. The longer you go with severe insomnia the harder it can be to recover from. However, there are a number of non-drug things you can do to help sleep, such as sleep hygiene, meditation, self-hypnosis/hypnosis recordings, etc. Let me know if you want more info.

I like the idea of trying two bags of tea, I'll try that tonight with 9mg of melatonin. When i was prescribed the Clonazepam my doctor did explain the dangers of the medication, laid out a tapering program down to how i can equally cut the pills into equal .5mg parts.

If you end up using the clonazepam nightly for very long I really don't think a clonazepam taper from 1mg to 0.5mg to 0mg is going to cut it, if that's what you meant that your doctor had advised. 0.5mg is still a substantial amount of clonazepam.

9mg of melatonin would be way too much for me. The appropriate dose is different for everyone, but if you take too much (whatever too much is for you individually) it tends to worsen insomnia. Where did you get the idea to take 9mg? Have you found that dose effective in the past or something?

But can you explain this to me....why am I not sleeping?? What is the cause of it? ... What exactly is going on in my body/brain that is keeping me from my normal sleep pattern and what can I do to fix it if anything, and if I can't then how long does it take?

Basically: Opioids reduce anxiety and cause sedation. Your brain/body learn to compensate for the presence of the opioid, then when the opioid is removed your brain/body are still compensating so anxiety and insomnia are increased. Did you want a more scientific answer than that? It's not as simple as there is an increase in one specific neurotransmitter or hormone and if you take XYZ substance it will fix that if that's what you were hoping. I feel a multi-pronged active approach is necessary, with lifestyle changes and environmental changes being a big part of that.

I have researched them to death and it seems that both supplements sam-e and 5-htp are both natural. I understand to take one or the other and not both but would you reccommend one?

I haven't found either to do much to promote sleep for me, but I would go with the 5-HTP I think. SAMe I couldn't tell if it was doing anything whatsoever in any regard. Everyone's different though.

 

[sniper5252]

In regards to the 9mg of melatonin, I was instructed to take 1 3mg tablet at bedtime then an additional 3mg tablet every 30 mins of not sleeping. I am usually asleep after the 3rd, so that is where I get the 9mg total.

I am now on day 11 of no opiates and have been using Sleepytime tea, valerian root and melatonin for the past 5 nights and for the first 4 nights was would usually fall asleep around 10 - 10:30 and sleep until about 4:30 without waking up. But once I woke up at 4:30 even though i still felt tired I could not get myself back to sleep. Last night however, i did the same thing and fell asleep around 10:30 and woke up at 1:30 and was wide awake. So wide awake i took some nyquil and got a total of 1-2 hrs of total sleep the rest of the night between 1:30 - 7:30. I have no idea why last night was so different as i thought I was getting better.

A few questions I have for you guys:

1. I am trying to do the same routine every night in hopes of getting back to my "normal". Tea, valerian root melatonin same time every night, should i try to switch it up a bit or should I maybe stop one of the things I am using? I also don't want to be dependent on these items to get to sleep, i want to do it on my own, so was wondering if i should cut them out 1 at a time or what.

2. The only symptom that i seem to have anymore is the insomnia, i haven't taken the Clonazepam in 6 days and I don't have the depression, anxiety or anything anymore, just this damn sleep issue. I was thinking that once the anxiety left, the insomnia would too....thats what should cause the insomnia I was thinking.

3.Would it be useful or pointless at this time to take the Clonazepam before bed tonight and skip the other remedies i was trying or stick with what I have been doing and avoid the clonazepam? I feel great physically and mentally but this insomnia and lack of sleep is zapping my energy and making it harder to get up and get motivated. It seems that once I am over the insomnia I will be "back" and that is the hurdle i want to get over so bad. Please any advice you guys can give at this point based on where I am is greatly appreciated.

 

[Mass08]

In regards to the 9mg of melatonin I heard that anything above 6mg induces insomnia...might want to look into that.

I would avoid the benzo's because as said before they will put you to sleep but you won't be getting restful sleep, it totally fucks with the natural sleep cycle.

I am on day 20 of no opiates and I use trazodone and .03mg of clonidine to sleep everynight. I don't think either of those have an effect on the actual sleep cycle but i'm not positive.

 

[sniper5252]

Thanks for the info on melatonin, I never knew that and now after looking into it I found so pretty interesting stuff. I was just considering the benzo since last night was so bad. I am hoping my body will attempt to make up for the lack of sleep last night and allow me to get the sleep that I need.

I would love to try the things you use for sleep, but it takes at least a week for me to get in with my doctor. I guess I will schedule the appointment because if I am still having the same sleep problems at the time of the appointment then I will need to try something else.

Any other ideas using what I currently have or am doing that could help. I think tonight I will try just the Valerian Root and Sleepytime Tea about an hour before I hope to fall asleep. Would adding a small dose of benedryl with the root and tea be a good idea or no? Thanks!

I may have misspoken earlier when I said the anxiety is gone. I feel it is but when I truly think about it as the evening approaches I think about if I will get to sleep tonight and then if I will stay asleep so I guess I do still have a little anxiety as it relates to the insomnia.

Would taking a Clonazepam around midday make sense? Would it help with the insomnia anxiety but not really affect my sleep since i took it 10 hours before bedtime and not for the purpose of just knocking myself out?

 

[Venrak]

Taking the benzo during the day instead of at night would be worth a shot, but probably won't help induce sleep, as peak effects would be well into their decline by the time you try to sleep, but if you truly are working yourself up about sleeping and that is greatly contributing to your problem, it will help. Make sure you practice good sleep hygiene, or else you're just fighting against yourself here.

As to the melatonin, try sticking to 3mg a night as there is no reason to go any higher, and as was brought to your attention it can get counter-productive.

Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) would be quite acceptable to use. 25-100mg, no higher, or you might not like what happens next. Try that before the clonazepam, but by all means try dosing the benzodiazepine around noon to see what happens.

 

[pasha]

The way i see it, without getting into a debate on what exact chemical processes are at play, is that the human brain is a system. Like all systems, it is made up of structures, which are inter-related in such a way that the state of one influences another so as to promote equilibrium and systemic integrity. Now, when you introduce another structure (opiates) to a system , all the others are going to change to compensate for the imbalance and in time systemic equilibrium will be attained once again. When that new structure is taken out (discontinuation of opiod therapy) the system is going to be thrown off (sleeping troubles, anxiety, the slew of PAWS symptoms) until specific structures (like endorphin production, receptor density) modify themselves, and system regains equilibrium again.

So this implies that the least chemical assistance you take during this period, the better it will be. But that doesn't take into account the secondary concequences of not medicating at all, like increased anxiety and cognitive difficulties from not getting enough sleep.

Good plan for tonight. Also, omega-3 fatty acids have been shown to have positive effects on general cognition and mood, anxiety etc. Make sure you do some research on a good multivitamin, as a lot of them are garbage.

Good luck, and sweet dreams

Wow, excellent post.

 

[sniper5252]

Quick update....I took 1mg of Clonazepam around 1:00 PM yesterday and I really didn't feel any different from it. I am not sure what I should feel but I felt nothing, however, for the first time since staring my detox I was craving opiates really bad last night and it is continuing this morning? Could this be an effect of the Clonazepam? Something to the effect of when I took opiates I got a good feeling and when I took the Clonazepam I got nothing, so I want that feeling so I craved the opiates?

If thats the case then I am permanently done with the Clonazepam cause the last thing I want to do is crave opiates. On another note I took the Clonazepam at 1 PM and then nothing after that including nothing prior to bedtime like the melatonin or tea. I fell asleep at 10:30 and slept until 3:30. Then would doze of and wake up every few minutes from 3:30 - 6:30. So do you think the Clonazepam played a role in me going to sleep without any of the other aids I had been using or could it be my body slowly getting back to normal or my body just being exhausted?

 

[pasha]

Clonazepam lowers the inhibitions much like alcohol, so it's normal that you're not at full capability of sensible thinking that would usually help suppress your opioid cravings. Many people relapse when they drink alcohol or take depressants for this very reason.

If it's running into the next day, it's normal because clonazepam has a long duration of action.

 

[sniper5252]

Clonazepam lowers the inhibitions much like alcohol, so it's normal that you're not at full capability of sensible thinking that would usually help suppress your opioid cravings. Many people relapse when they drink alcohol or take depressants for this very reason.

If it's running into the next day, it's normal because clonazepam has a long duration of action.

Thank you so much for that information. I guess that explains the strong cravings still today. Must fight the urge....thanks!!

 

[pasha]

No problem.

 

[sniper5252]

So I fell off the wagon today and took 30mg of hydro. The cravings have been so strong and I really tried but gave in. I hope to stop here. It was either take hydro or I was going to purposely injure myself so I had to go to the ER to get some dilaudid. Just wanted to get this out there for myself. I am pissed at myself for falling for the cravings, but I hope I can stop myself before I take anymore.

 

[pasha]

I strongly urge you to make a post in one of our new recovery sub-sections:

The Dark Side

or

Sober Living

If you're seeking support on how to tackle your drug problem, or how to maintain sobriety, there's a wealth of information and knowledgeable posters there which can give you golden advice.

Basic Drug Discussion however, is for drug related questions, so I'm going to close this thread as your query has been responded to. If you need any advice on making your next post, shoot me a PM and I'll be more than glad to help.