Misinformation, misunderstanding, ignorance around datura

[magicking]

Hi Friends, my first post.

I want to clear up a lot of pitiful misinformation and misunderstanding about datura.
The first and overwhelmingly important thing about datura is this:

If you are not at least vegetarian (better still, vegan), then you deserve whatever you get. If you have the karma of killing, destroying life, and expect to get a good trip off this most spiritual and transcendent substance, then you deserve what is coming your way. That's what makes people who say "You should make an ointment containing pig lard" so pitiful and sad and laughable.

If you are vegetarian/vegan, you are spiritually inclined, you can handle your pot, LSD, shrooms and ecstasy, and you have a good friend who knows a thing or two about the universe, you are perfectly ready for the most easily-obtainable, legal, bountiful, cheapest, and life-affirming, transcendent, amazing, superb, enlightening, indescribable experiences available to humankind.

Whenever you read about datura, people invariably go on at length about the dangers, the hopitalisations, the "I've done 5000 acids trips but never wanna touch that stuff". This is all par for the course for average, meat-eating, non-spiritual, non-seeking, normal people.

If you are looking for the next level, the ultimate experience, and you have purified your karmic lifeforce by not killing and destroying life for a few years, have mastered acid and the like, and have a few good friends the same, then you have no limits to your life's fulfillment with the aid of this most sacred and holy plant.

As for ways of taking it, the most simply and effective way is simply munch on a fresh flower. It does not taste particularly bad, and this way you can easily monitor your dosage. Take literally a few small nibbles every now and then - the beauty of this method is, it is pretty hard to overdose - no-one wants to take a huge bite of a fresh flower - it's counterintuitive and physically difficult, as opposed to, say, gulping down a cup of tea or swallowing seeds.

The drug is free, it is legal, it is many times more brilliant than LSD, it is transcendent.

But if you hope to get any of these positive effects whilst still having the karma of killing and destroying life, you quite simply deserve whatever your karma throws at you.

This is the worst misunderstanding about drugs, I believe; people don't seem to realise that they are so highly subjective in respect of the user's state of karmic purity or impurity. If you have purified your self (a careful 24 or 48 hour fast, with just fresh juice and water is ideal), & have been spiritually inclined and vegetarian (or better, vegan) for at least a year, then you are well on the way to a beatific experience. Otherwise, you get what you deserve.

Not many people know or acknowledge any of this, even though it is the utter truth. Datura is, despite being by far and away the most potent psychoactive drug known to humankind, completely legal and exceedingly easy to acquire more than you could ever possibly need. The irony of this is so profound that it makes you laugh out loud and pity the deluded, lost, pitiful authorities who have no idea about anything whatsoever. And if you are the right person for it, then (apart from weed), you will never, ever, ever need any other psychoactive drug.

I am quite aware that zillions of people will take offense at this and say that there is nothing wrong with destroying life, that there is no such thing as karma, and it makes no difference whether you kill animals or not in regard to your experience on drugs. But even though they say so, they are wrong. I know. I took acid trips as a meat eater, and at best had a buzzy time. At worst, had an horrific time with evil hallucinations, self-mutilation thoughts - literally the desire for self-disembowelment, putting a knife to my stomach and slashing out the innards - quite literally hellish experiences. After becoming vegan, they were incredible. After moving on to datura, there is utterly no comparison whatsoever.

I can only urge all of you to give up killing and destroying life, and reap the rewards of blissful experience.
In terms of the experience itself, it can range from a mild acid trip, without hallucination, to a strong acid trip, with some hallucination, to a full-blown hallucinatory experience. Granted, it is easy to tip over the edge into disassociativeness and lose the grip on reality, which is the severely unwanted experience. This may happen (has to me) the first time, but as long as you are sensible with the dosage, are not out wandering the streets, have someone else there, then the worst that can happen is you talk to your TV as if it were a real person, or your take all your clothes off and wake up naked. As long as you're at home, and don't let yourself go to a club or wander down the street, then you are fine.

In any event, this should only happen one time. After it does, you never want it to happen again, and will be infinitely more careful with dosage. Furthermore, as with any drug or substance, the body and mind get used to it. After the first time, you are prepared for the shock; your brain is steeled for it. Most likely, the next time you took it, you wouldn't even have any hallucination whatsoever because you are so wary of tipping over like last time.

Once you get the balance right, you can have pure hallucinatory, visionary experiences or just a killer acid-like trip, amazing and wondrous.

But unless you are free of the karma of killing and destroying life, you are just wasting your time and if you end up crazy, in hospital or dead, then it's simply your own fault.

 

[sekio]

This is all par for the course for average, meat-eating, non-spiritual, non-seeking, normal people.

Eating meat (or not) has absolutely nothing to do with it. Some people simply find the experience of being delerious for days with a dry mouth and uncontrollable sweats is just not their thing. I am sure a vegitarian would have a plainly miserable time if he or she overshot their dose.

While you are correct that it is best to be prepared for datura wholeheartedly, mentally & spiritually, it is a bit of a stretch to say that "karmic impurities" are the cause for bad experiences. Way more often it is caused by grievous misjudgement of the strength of datura ("A few seeds won't hurt me.") and no or little foreknowledge of the effects to be expected.

I know some meat eaters that have tripped just fine on datura. Would they do it regularly, no. But did they have a valuable experience? Yes. In almost all cases they do a slow titration like you suggest. Not always with flowers, sometimes with decoctions made from the leaves or seeds, but either way it is consumed very very cautiously. to produce desirable effects. It really comes down to the psychological mind state of respect for both yourself and the plant.

Datura is indeed a strong plant teacher. A lot of people who try datura do so due to availibility and because they are seeking a thrill - the wrong attitude to have.

give up killing and destroying life

Says the plant murderer. </s>

 

[RobotRipping]

what a bunch of shit, seriously. hope you feel for those bacteria you constantly kill by living, not to mention being part of the larger problem of humanity destroying your precious fucking earth. That should mess with your head while on datura, man the bad karma you must have just by living is insane.

datura is by no means the most potent psychoactive drug known to man kind either.

go read about karma and it's origins, your post makes no sense, unless of course you've managed to grasp the 'my name is earl' sense of karma, which is undoubtedly the case here.

Granted, it is easy to tip over the edge into disassociativeness and lose the grip on reality, which is the severely unwanted experience.

that's the state i usually try to achieve with any and all substances.

 

[Flickering]

Pretty much the entire lifestyle you live runs off the debt enslavement of the third world. The major corporations you buy from like to cut costs by dealing with people such as human traffickers and arms dealers; you are vicariously supporting rape and murder worldwide every day. Your casual habits contribute to the endless terra-tons of waste and pollution that are making Earth less of an inhabitable planet by the month. Hey it's not your FAULT the system works that way and if it were your choice, you wouldn't have it like this, but that's what most of us say about the atrocities of the meat industry. You wanna try laud your black-and-white, holier-than-thou ego over us, then you forget we're living in a crapsack world. I'm at least glad your delusional way of thinking has given you the clear conscience and placebo effect you need to have cozy datura trips.

 

[justinsayno]

urg....
see, i dont eat meat. But its people like that that give us vegetarians a bad name. So much so that i never reffer to myself as a vegetarian and i never mention it unless people are offering me meat

the protien cycle is perfectly natural, the industry that enables it is evil as fuck but most meat eater know this but, as someone already said, there is little they can do about it.

live and let live dude, if someone wants to eat dead bodies thats thier bag. no use in being a judgemental prick about it.

oh and as for the plant murdered comment ; most fruits and veg and many plants have evolved to be eaten; eating fruits etc and shitting out seed in a different location is completing thier life cycle.

 

[Flickering]

^^ Thanks, that's how I felt about being vegetarian when I was too.

It's something I want to go back to eventually, but I found the lack of iron made my energy levels unbearable while working two jobs, studying and suffering from chronic depression.

 

[kidklmx]

I don't see what is wrong with killing an animal for food anyways, Tigers do it too. If it's about the state of the bioindustry (nasty word..) then I agree, but if I were to base my shopping too much on that I would have nothing in my house. (And one could argue that it's actually less worse than killing an animal that has memories, children and is enjoying life)

Note I'm not hating on vegetarians, it's your life do whatever you please/find right. Another thing, meat replacements are becoming rather tasty (we tend to eat that at least once per week now) and should make eating actual meat obsolete. Same for synthetic meats. In the end I think technological advancement is going to rid us off all our moral problems.

 

[Obsidius]

tho i'm a vegetarien i'm also a gardener. seems my karma is totally fucked from killing and cutting so man living organisms, mh?

besides, one CAN be highly spiritual without the dichotomy of some idea like karma.

EDIT: whenever i hear this judgemetal "look how we treat the planet!" talk i hear george carlin in the back of my head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

 

[justinsayno]

^
i agree
which is a crying shame because we are messing up the planet...enviromentalism missed the point early on; its not about saving the wales or the rainforests, its about saving mankind.

the preachy twats do more to disrupt the momentum of the 'movement' and turn the general public off more than the oil companies IMO [ after all i've never met an oil executive, but i've met a thousand pricks who think they're something special because of thier choice of diet and recycling habbits ]

 

[kidklmx]

Which is pretty bad, as most people rather trust a brand than a person on things like this. Or they don't but they just don't care enough (have their own problems).

 

[Jackeh]

Being vegetarian has absolutely nothing to do with it unless your mindset can somehow incorporate that into it, but that would only happen if you ate meat and felt horrible about it.

Animals eat plants. Plants remove CO2 and give us O2. With both humans and other animals eating plants, we are removing a source of oxygen. Humans eating other animals may result in less plants being eaten, leaving more oxygen for living things and less CO2 causing the greenhouse effect.

 

[rickolasnice]

Are you seriously?

By the way.. Karma isn't real.

 

[justinsayno]

^
if you're taking the greenhouse effect into consideration then vegetarianism is better for the planet. Animals use a shitton of water and produce methane, where as a field dedicated to growing fruit and veg has almost no impact on the enviroment at all
assuming no nasty pesticides are used

it is simply impossible to be a human without having a negative impact on the enviroment

unless OP's post came from a laptop made from hemp, powered by wind and connected to the net with enviromentally friendly copper that was mined by hand by workers getting a fair wage he's a hypocrite

he should accept this and get off his high horse

 

[rickolasnice]

^I'm guessing that post was in reply to the one above mine but yeah you're right.. The meat industry is baaad for our planet. Energy is wasted in feeding crops to animals and the amount of space needed for just a few cows is

So yeah.. meat industry = bad for environment.

 

[RedRum OG]

Those who take datura are horrible plant killers and deserve to have it melt holes in their brain and have it stay in their spinal fluid forever.

We must stop the misinformation, misunderstanding, and ignorance!

P.s. being a hippie is totally a good excuse for being an idiot

 

[Asante]

What a terrible post in so many ways.

First off, Datura has MANY species, all with differing alkaloid levels and also with different levels of the different alkaloids proportional to one another. Different kinds of Datura give different kinds of trips and different levels of side effects. Hyoscyamine is highly energizing, Scopolamine is tranquilizing. Atropine and Atroscine each have only half the peripheral side effecis of the former alkaloids. Do you advise how to convert hyoscyamine to atropine and scopolamine to atroscine? No you advise to "eat a flower" almost assuring in most cases the maximum of levorotary alkaloids and the least racemic ones.

Next, gram for gram not all flowers are equal in potency ON THE SAME PLANT and tips and bases of flowers have differing alkaloid levels and proportions. And in different growth stages and freshnesses of the flowers the alkaloid levels are different.

Next, what is a flower? A B.Suaveolens flower can have 25x more mass than a D.Stramonium flower. Your dosage advice is a 25 fold weight ratio and the alkal;oids in them can vary fivefold. Dude, you just advised people to take an amount where 1 person can get 125x more alkaloids than another, and these alkaloids are of widely differing compositions. These different compositions have marked toxicity differences. Scopolamine has killed in 1mg doses, and often does so at 5mg. With atropine it usually takes 50mg. Some flowers are 99% atropine some are 80% scopolamine, which is a toxicity difference of a factor 8.. on the 125x ratio makes 1000x differences in lethality between flowers. Need I throw more numbers at you before you realize how bad an idea this is? There are cases a flower can underwhelm and cases a flower can kill.

If you want to be a karmically pure vegetarian, go the next level and dont dispense advice that could potentially kill some of the people here.

In the 1990s in South Africa, Sangomas in training and advanced ones were given not datura to induce visions, but 2C-B. The Sangomas verified that the 2C-B gave authentic access to the Spirit World and was highly preferred over the dangerous ordeal that traditional concoctions provided. There is a lesson there I think. Its not about Organic or Synthetic but about following the path of least harm to all to meet your objective. I like to ask you to leave the flowers on the plant and instead taking 10-20mg of 2C-E or so. Or if you insist on being Mr Natural, to eat a fresh pound of San Pedro cactus or a fresh ounce of Golden Teacher mushroom.

 

[my3rdeye]

The meat industry is bad, thats why i am pro hunting. Its the most natural way to get meat. No genetic modification, no growth hormones, no vaccines. And i get the bonus of pissing off animals rights activists. Hunting is the most natural, back to earth way of living, i think more people should do it. While i don't plan to take a delirient ever, LSD fishing is the best time ever. I am counting the days to LSD fishing trips. Enjoy your tofu!

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

As for ways of taking it, the most simply and effective way is simply munch on a fresh flower. It does not taste particularly bad, and this way you can easily monitor your dosage

Working your way up is indeed the way to go when dealing with plant material. Personally, I always made a batch of tea from a larger amount of plant material so I could have standardized dosing.

If you are looking for the next level, the ultimate experience

I disagree with the implied argument here, that getting higher/more effed up is better.

In terms of the experience itself, it can range from a mild acid trip, without hallucination, to a strong acid trip, with some hallucination, to a full-blown hallucinatory experience.

Anticholinergics and 5-HTR mediated psychedelics are quite dissimilar, all you're really saying with the comparison is that you can have a ++ or +++ on them.

Take the veggie cult-thinking to HL or P&S...

 

[Elinisti]

I haven't ever tried delirious amounts of Datura but have sometimes chewed on a leaf or maybe 5-10 seeds (i spit the residue out because I think the mucus membranes filter some of the toxins). Seems to help with depression http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250308/ . Makes sense because I get depressed from choline supplements. The problem is that the toxins stay in the body for a long time. Smoking datura doesn't feel to be toxic and gives a slight tobacco-like feeling.

 

[red22]

Datura seems to have a prominent role in certain Asiatic religions. Here's a document I found online called, "The Use of Entheogens in the Vajrayana Tradition", which is mainly about datura. It's just a list of reading materials (but it's pretty long).

http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/rich_text_5.html

Traditional representation of Datura metel on a Tibetan medicine thangka (close-up)

The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants (Christian Rätsch, 2005), p. 206
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-...Zjc5My00OWE3LWEyMmMtOWVhYjE1NGQ3MWNl&hl=en_US

Seems to help with depression http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250308/ .

Furey says that scopolamine—best known as a motion sickness treatment—may have more potential as a fast-acting antidepressant. In 2006, Furey and her colleagues discovered its anti-depressive benefits. Unlike ketamine, scopolamine works through the brain's acetylcholine chemical messenger system, which plays a role in memory and how information is processed. The NIMH team's research showed that by blocking receptors for acetylcholine on neurons, scopolamine could lift depression in many patients within a few days.

"One important thing," notes Furey, "is that it doesn't work for everybody. But when it works, it works very quickly." Scopolamine has some side effects, like drowsiness and dry mouth. Moreover, there’s some negative Internet buzz about the drug. The side effects of scopolamine aren't bad, Furey says, "but it doesn't have a great reputation. There are some people who claim it has been used in date-rape type of stuff, which I haven't seen. It makes people a little bit nervous, which I understand."

http://news.yahoo.com/meet-antidepressant-eases-depression-hours-not-weeks-172649047.html


Maura L. Furey, PhD; Wayne C. Drevets, MD. Antidepressant Efficacy of the Antimuscarinic Drug Scopolamine: A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2006;63(10):1121-1129. doi:10.1001/archpsyc.63.10.1121.

Drevets WC, Furey ML. Replication of scopolamine's antidepressant efficacy in major depressive disorder: a randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Biol Psychiatry. 2010 Mar 1;67(5):432-8. Epub 2010 Jan 15.

D M Jones, M E Jones, M J Lewis, T L Spriggs. Drugs and human memory: effects of low doses of nitrazepam and hyoscine [scopolamine] on retention. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1979 May; 7(5): 479–483.

NIH Clinical Research Studies, The Antidepressant Efficacy of the Anticholinergic Scopolamine, Protocol Number: 06-M-0234

The above report cited the following journal articles, which are the biochemical basis for this proposal.

Janowsky DS, el-Yousef MK, Davis JM. Acetylcholine and depression. Psychosom Med. 1974 May-Jun;36(3):248-57.

Janowsky DS, el-Yousef MK, Davis JM, Hubbard B, Sekerke HJ. Cholinergic reversal of manic symptoms. Lancet. 1972 Jun 3;1(7762):1236-7.

Janowsky EC, Risch C, Janowsky DS. Effects of anesthesia on patients taking psychotropic drugs. J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1981 Jan;1(1):14-20.

Additional paper from the same research team I found, via Google:

Janowsky DS, Davis JM, el-Yousef MK, Sekerke HJ. A cholinergic-adrenergic hypothesis of mania and depression, The Lancet, 1972 Sep 23;300(7778):632-635