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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Are amphetamines/stimulants for ADD more harmful to user when they don't have ADD?

dirzted

Bluelighter
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I know this may sound like a stupid question but I'm curious as to what health effects stimulant drugs have on people who don't have ADD compared to those who do. (if any, besides obvious like dependence, anxiety and depression)
I mean like if a person who didn't have ADD took normal, therapeutic, doses of stimulants, again besides depression and dependence, would they have more cardiovascular issues than a person who actually had ADD?

Btw I'm not on any stimulants and I don't have ADD I was just curious after hearing so much about doctors misdiagnosing ADD and prescribing the patient stimulants.
 
I think your going to see negative side effects in both groups of people. Taking stimulants everyday takes its toll on your body/brain eventually. In my opinion ADD is a made up disorder to get kids on meds. What they call ADD these day's is what I consider day dreaming. It's pathetic, school's get paid for every kid on ADD medication, hence the rise in ADD cases.

It really depends on the person. In some it could induce a underlying mental health issue.
 
I think it's safe to say that there are a group of people with said disorder and as such at Rx'd doses they are likely to benefit and not experience all that many negative side effects. The chemistry of the brain is extremely complex, and not in the least fully understood.

One thing that can be said with certainty is that all individuals react to these medications differently to varying degrees. I attribute it to the pre existing mental dysfunctions that they suffer. However, based on your point of view this can be viewed many different ways. None of these are right or wrong really, just a different way at analyzing the same situation.

There is also as stated, a push to force diagnosis, on questionable candidates for various reasons. All in all, it's really a grey area which IMHO deserves more research than it gets. That then again is not productive to the bottom line of pharmaceutical companies, so sadly, it's something unlikely to be seen.
 
I think for the most part, people who are legitimately prescribed stimulants for the ADD/ADHD don't suffer the typical side effects that us recreational non ADD/ADHD users to. Otherwise if they really did, I think a LOT of people would be turned off of their medication. The benefits clearly outweigh the negatives for someone taking it as prescribed for an actually medically documented reason.

I used to share your opinion SDforever420, but I've learned a LOT more about drugs and advanced drug discussion in the past few years while studying what I could. ADD isn't just a problem in children and teens in school, adults can have sever cases of ADD too. It IS a very real medical condition. Trust me. If you truly had ADD and were to take a single 10mg Adderall IR, it wouldn't effect you at all like it does normally. People with ADD/ADHD can often FALL ASLEEP on high doses of their meds. It blows my mind, but I understood why once I looked up more info.

Now, back to the OPs question. Like I said, people prescribed it generally suffer a lot less of the negative side effects, more so as their body adjusts to the daily intake of the drug. Compare this to someone who takes adderall daily for recreational purposes, you're going to see a large difference in perceived effects I'm sure. Chances are the recreational user takes higher doses at once to make sure he/she achieves a high, along with a potentially different ROA such as plugging which is incredibly effect for adderall. This person instead of feeling calm and focused like those with ADD/ADHD, would feel extremely speedy and sometimes be accompanied by euphoria. They would however be more susceptible to the negative effects like change in blood pressure and elevated heart rate. Even with continued daily use, these symptoms wll most likely only worsen.

What I'm saying here is that the person taking it as prescribed for legitimate needs is going to adjust to their dosage, and the side effects won't be that present. A comedown however is inevitable and that's why people on stimulant medications are commonly prescribed benzos and such to help them sleep at night. The recreational user on the other hand is always going to experience negative side effects while taking a stimulant, how sever though depends on their dosage. Unlike with the person taking as prescribed, negative symptoms will INCREASE in effect if the user continues to use a stimulant every day.

BOTH will however have a noticeable tax on their body from taking a stimulant everyday. THAT is unavoidable. I had a friend who was prescribed Adderall for like 4 years or something. It completely fucked up his mind. He's borderline crazy now. The way he thinks, how he handles things, his anger. It's all very very different. This is someone who actually has ADD too.
 
In terms of physiological issues they would be the same in both groups. Nothing about having ADD protects you from the cardiotoxiciy of amphetamines. In terms of psychological side effects, I would except amphetamines to be better tolerated by those with ADD than those who don't have it.
 
It is also possible for someone with ADD to be misled by their medication because of the pleasant side effects: mainly, a general feeling of well-being. I was convinced that I had ADD.. But I got the "antidepressant" side effect right from the get-go on an initial 10mg dose. I was overly positive about everything, coupled with an acute focus. And that meant I was jumping around to ideas that would replace each other rapidly, because I was so attracted to the newer ideas. Maybe this is proof that I didn't have ADD.

Also, I think it's possible to be "distracted by focus" with Adderall. I noticed that I would become intensely focused on whatever I happened to start doing. This could be anything, like for instance, scratching away a blemish on my desk or the wall. In other words, Adderall helps with ADD, but you have to have discipline in your life already in place, which of course people with ADD rarely have.

Also, everyone I have ever known who takes low therapeutic dose of Adderall for a ADD diagnosis has mood swings, talks too much, and is an insomniac.
 
Well i didn't read, but as an ADD member, i can't even FATHOM the thought of taking my adderall everyday.

I take it probably 1 or 2 X a month, and usually just self medicate with opiates and weed.

Opiates IMHO are the best drugs for ADD(can't speak for ADHD) since...well since ever. They should be the gold standard in treating ADD, but instead we get....adderall.

Ok yeah lets give STIMULANTS to HYPER KIDS to make them better!! By God why did we not think of this before Hitler??

It doesn't make sense on paper, or in my brain chemistry...i know, i can feel it.


I haven't had anything but like 100mg of tramadol and a tiny bowl of some dank today so thats why i'm typing like a wall of fucking text here.. FUCK MY NECK HURTS!

I know exactly what you mean by "distracted by focus" , man when i do take my Addy usually for school or something( less than 2 times/month) i get a fucking 1,000 yard stare from hell, worse than that of opiates because it's like i almost CAN't even snap out of it.

nah mean??
 
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Theoretically the answer is yes since such drugs are used to make up for a deficit which the rest of the population doesn't have, but the answer is probably yes in some realms and no in others because standardized medicines aren't varied enough to account for all of the unique nuances in peoples brains, therefore their will be some shortcomings and some overlaps. Good question.

Be careful about absolutes.

I don't think there is a much of a risk that stimulants possess given a relatively low dose on a daily basis.
 
Well, I've been taking Adderall XR everyday for over 3 years now and don't think I ever had "significant" ADD to begin with. I don't take it to get high or anything, but the first time ingesting it I felt incredibly euphoric on only 10mg. My pdoc bumped the dose up to 20mg for some reason and I was a lot more focused for the first year or so, but the crash was bad. Over two years later, I kind of feel like I'm crashing all the time. I feel too depressed to do anything without it and functioning with it is difficult because I get really bad anxiety. If I take anything over my prescribed dose, I feel like my heart is going to jump out of my chest. I've tried lowering my dosage, which helps a little and I recently switched to Dexedrine. Anyway, to answer your question I don't see why someone with more severe ADD/ADHD would have less cardiac symptoms.

Also, everyone I have ever known who takes low therapeutic dose of Adderall for a ADD diagnosis has mood swings, talks too much, and is an insomniac.

This is me except I don't talk that much and have klonopin for the insomnia. The mood swings have gotten worse and worse.
 
Opiates IMHO are the best drugs for ADD(can't speak for ADHD) since...well since ever. They should be the gold standard in treating ADD, but instead we get....adderall.

You may feel this way this way, as others do, because they're both dopamine agonists. Let's not forget though the role nor-epinephrine plays in AD(H)D. This is besides the point that opioids most likely have a higher risk of dependance, withdrawal, and addiction than dextroamphetamine and would provide a difficult task for most people to manage a productive life on.

Opioids eject an individual far too much from reality for them to be able to drastically improve an individuals quality of life.
 
It is also possible for someone with ADD to be misled by their medication because of the pleasant side effects: mainly, a general feeling of well-being. I was convinced that I had ADD.. But I got the "antidepressant" side effect right from the get-go on an initial 10mg dose. I was overly positive about everything, coupled with an acute focus. And that meant I was jumping around to ideas that would replace each other rapidly, because I was so attracted to the newer ideas. Maybe this is proof that I didn't have ADD.

Also, I think it's possible to be "distracted by focus" with Adderall. I noticed that I would become intensely focused on whatever I happened to start doing. This could be anything, like for instance, scratching away a blemish on my desk or the wall. In other words, Adderall helps with ADD, but you have to have discipline in your life already in place, which of course people with ADD rarely have.

Also, everyone I have ever known who takes low therapeutic dose of Adderall for a ADD diagnosis has mood swings, talks too much, and is an insomniac.

Awesome post. Yeah I was on Adderall and Focalin on and off sometimes for months at a time and I really really don't like stimulants but I had to get stuff done. You can't expect a pill to do everything, as with any disease or condition that gets treated with a psychoactive substance you have to make lifestyle changes....the other day I needed to clean my room for like 6 hours because I hadn't done it in a longggg time, I can't maintain focus that long on something like that, so I took Adderall XR and the first 3 hours were playing Xbox, so much for focus right? Well let me say I've never played with such insane focus...once I was able to use my brain (and not the pill alone) to switch focuses I was fine. Allot of people also say "Its not working anymore!" as soon as the initial first 3 days of using it because the initial super strong effect goes away in addition to the buzz, people do it with opioids too, I know a few other people who took OxyContin for like 2 weeks and then said "they got to tolerant"...always roll my eyes at that. Discipline is important and while allot of people with ADD don't have it I know allot of people with ADD that have very strong discipline, thing is they don't look like they have ADD, they are usually buried in books and very different on and off stimulants.

I think for the most part, people who are legitimately prescribed stimulants for the ADD/ADHD don't suffer the typical side effects that us recreational non ADD/ADHD users to. Otherwise if they really did, I think a LOT of people would be turned off of their medication. The benefits clearly outweigh the negatives for someone taking it as prescribed for an actually medically documented reason.

I used to share your opinion SDforever420, but I've learned a LOT more about drugs and advanced drug discussion in the past few years while studying what I could. ADD isn't just a problem in children and teens in school, adults can have sever cases of ADD too. It IS a very real medical condition. Trust me. If you truly had ADD and were to take a single 10mg Adderall IR, it wouldn't effect you at all like it does normally. People with ADD/ADHD can often FALL ASLEEP on high doses of their meds. It blows my mind, but I understood why once I looked up more info.

Now, back to the OPs question. Like I said, people prescribed it generally suffer a lot less of the negative side effects, more so as their body adjusts to the daily intake of the drug. Compare this to someone who takes adderall daily for recreational purposes, you're going to see a large difference in perceived effects I'm sure. Chances are the recreational user takes higher doses at once to make sure he/she achieves a high, along with a potentially different ROA such as plugging which is incredibly effect for adderall. This person instead of feeling calm and focused like those with ADD/ADHD, would feel extremely speedy and sometimes be accompanied by euphoria. They would however be more susceptible to the negative effects like change in blood pressure and elevated heart rate. Even with continued daily use, these symptoms wll most likely only worsen.

What I'm saying here is that the person taking it as prescribed for legitimate needs is going to adjust to their dosage, and the side effects won't be that present. A comedown however is inevitable and that's why people on stimulant medications are commonly prescribed benzos and such to help them sleep at night. The recreational user on the other hand is always going to experience negative side effects while taking a stimulant, how sever though depends on their dosage. Unlike with the person taking as prescribed, negative symptoms will INCREASE in effect if the user continues to use a stimulant every day.

BOTH will however have a noticeable tax on their body from taking a stimulant everyday. THAT is unavoidable. I had a friend who was prescribed Adderall for like 4 years or something. It completely fucked up his mind. He's borderline crazy now. The way he thinks, how he handles things, his anger. It's all very very different. This is someone who actually has ADD too.

I never understood how you could fall asleep on amphetamines but its happened to me before! I find in normal range dosages when you become accustom to the medicine it does make you tired, norepinephrine does play a role in sedation ironically though I know it mostly for its opposite effects. That said sedation with high dosages (which is all relative to tolerance and the person) is unlikely. Something about long term stimulant use is just bad in my mind though, it'd be like over clocking your computer and expecting it to last longer, or running your car on balded tires for too long, etc. But amphetamines will mess with your mind, I know I never crossed the crazy barrier but a few days I had to calm down, pause and look around me and realize that I was talking like a crackhead, forgot breakfast and lunch, was dehydrated and cramped, and all around just felt like crap but the amphetamine just gives you more stamina and you start to focus less on things other than the task at hand...ultimately I discontinued using it for those reasons. I also have seen several kids cross over into severe amphetamine abuse, I'm talking like taking three 30mg XR capsules and crushing them and snorting them EVERYDAY and then using cocaine and methamphetamine when they crash to stay up even more and they act like animals, I don't care if you have an A+ in all their classes when you start going manic bipolar like and yelling at people and getting over irritated its annoying...

I know exactly what you mean by "distracted by focus" , man when i do take my Addy usually for school or something( less than 2 times/month) i get a fucking 1,000 yard stare from hell, worse than that of opiates because it's like i almost CAN't even snap out of it.
Lmao 1000 yard stare is EXACTLY how I would put it! I suppose a 1000 yard stare in your class is good though....
 
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^ I tried to answer this question as best I can in the following quote from another thread since many people experience a similar side effect including myself. Take it with a grain of salt though sine dopamine's role in sleep is still an ambiguous subject.

For narcoleptics with daytime sleepiness/drowsiness a higher dose of amphetamine will certainly induce wakefulness, for someone with insomnia that's dopamine related such as an ex-opioid/methamphetamine addict a low dose amphetamine will put them to sleep as it will induce dopaminergic activity but not enough adrenergic/dopaminergic activity to cause wakefulness. Decreased daytime drowsiness also allows narcoleptics to sleep at night as that's one of the major issues they face in that sleep during the day causes less sleep at night and vice-versa.

Several opioid/stimulant addicts on this site and many that I know outside of this site tend to experience the exact same thing, there are many threads about amphetamine causing drowsiness in which several users PM'd me for more data, hence why I conjured up all those studies then and now once more. I myself cannot sleep on benzodiazepines but only 5-10 milligrams of adderall.

This is also why sleepiness is mentioned as a side effect on datasheets of many stimulants. You'll find the same connection with most dopaminergic euphoriants such as cannabis. There are definitely other mechanisms that are involved in their drowsiness but dopamine seems to be a major link.

Some of the links are broken, ill keep updating with data:

The debate resides on the demonstration that DA is a substance dramatically related to sleep processes, and not associated exclusively with wakefulness events. In this sense, recent data from literature reveal that REM sleep neural pathways are triggered when D2 dopaminergic receptors are activated on a background of reduced mesolimbic glutamatergic and serotonergic tone. Furthermore, selective lesion of the substantia nigra pars compacta (SNpc) neurons elicits a remarkable disruption of REM sleep. Additionally, the overall mean firing rate of the ventral tegmental area (VTA) neurons, present a large increase in the burst firing during REM sleep episodes. Such evidence prompts us to speculate that dopaminergic neurons present at SNpc and VTA could be consider essential for sleep regulation, in particular for triggering and maintenance of REM sleep, respectively. A clinical corroboration of this hypothesis concerned a study of motor restoration control, observed during REM sleep in Parkinson's disease (PD) patients. We propose that the paradigm of DA is being involved with wakefulness and not sleep regulation is not fully accurate. The premise stated in the current manuscript allegates that DA could present an important participation in both sleep and wake states, and each state may be accounted by differential degrees of dopaminergic modulation. The conclusion drawn from these findings is that DA has significant implications in the sleep regulation, and that particular condition has to be fully considered in respect of treatment and management of PD patients.

Dopamine Antagonists inducing wakefulness:

The effects of the putative dopamine (DA) autoreceptor antagonists cis-(+)-5-methoxy-1-methyl-2-(di-n- propylamino)tetralin, (+)-UH 232, and cis-(+)-5-methoxy-1-methyl-2-(n-propylamino)tetralin, (+)-AJ 76, on sleep-wake activity, EEG, and motor activity in the rat were studied. Both drugs induced a dose-dependent increase in wakefulness

Dopamine in parkinsons:

l-DOPA medication improved the quality of sleep. Delta sleep was most visibly improved. Also, post-treatment enhancement of the mean delta power over the parkinsonian hemisphere was supported statistically.

The role of dopamine in slow wave sleep control and mechanism of contralateral hemisphere involvement are discussed.

Dopamine agonists in narcoleptics causing dose dependent sleepiness:

Dopamine (DA) traditionally has not been considered a modulator of sleep/wake state in part because of claims that endogenous DA transmission varies little between sleep/wake states. Thus, recent clinical recognition of daytime sleepiness in PD has been met with surprise and has prompted a search for its cause(s).2,3⇓ A decades-long debate as to whether DA participates in behavioral state control—and if it does, what its role(s) might be—has been rekindled. This issue of Neurology includes one study documenting daytime sleepiness with the D2–D3 receptor agonist ropinirole in drug-naïve control subjects4 and three investigating the pathophysiologic basis of like decrements seen in the face of DA deficiency accompanying PD.5-7⇓⇓ In an upcoming issue, a fifth work reports on physiologically defined sleepiness in patients with PD who reported sleepiness, as well as its clinicoetiologic correlates.8 That sleepiness is common not only with D2–D3 agonist use but also with endogenous DA loss is seemingly paradoxical, and this highlights the complexity of the influences of DA on the sleep/wake state.

Anatomy and state-related function of midbrain DA neurons:

The mesocortical, mesolimbic, and mesostriatal systems are the most conspicuous of central dopaminergic pathways,9 and govern cognitive, emotive, and motor behaviors. Midbrain DA neurons have the potential to modulate normal and pathologic thalamocortical neuron excitability and, by inference, the sleep/wake state

Dopamine and circadian rhythms:

These interrelationships are consistent with a common regulatory mechanism governing the sleep/wake and/or rest/activity in plasma catecholamine levels.

Apomorphine induced sleep:

Sleep induction has been studied in humans after the administration of apomorphine, a direct stimulant of the central dopaminergic system. The drug induced sleep and vomiting in healthy volunteers while it had no significant effect on 10 Parkinsonism patients treated for a long period with L-dopa. Apomorphine given to a group of Parkinsonism patients not receiving any specific treatment, and with a lower degree of disease severity, induced vomiting and sleep with a pattern similar to that in healthy subjects. A relationship between the dopaminergic system and sleep induction is suggested.

Dopamine in Mice:

Neuroscientists at Duke University Medical Center working with genetically engineered mice have found that the brain chemical dopamine plays a critical role in regulating sleep and brain activity associated with dreaming.

When dopamine levels were dramatically reduced, the mice could no longer sleep, the scientists said. When dopamine levels were increased, the mice exhibited brain activity associated with dreaming during wakefulness.

The same processes likely occur in humans, according to the researchers. They said the findings give insight into the sleep problems common among patients suffering from Parkinson's disease, a neurodegenerative disorder in which brain cells containing dopamine die or become impaired.

A new study suggests that destruction of significantly fewer dopamine-producing cells could result in sleep problems long before the motor problems become apparent, the researchers said.

Dopamine is a "neurotransmitter" that carries signals from one neuron to another. It is known to control movement, balance, emotion and the sense of pleasure.

Normally, when a signal needs to travel through the brain, neurons release dopamine to transport the signal across the gap, or synapse, between neurons. A kind of protein pump, called a transporter, recycles dopamine back to the neurons to prepare for the next burst of signal.

In studies 10 years ago, Marc Caron, Ph.D., James B. Duke professor of cell biology and a co-investigator in the current study, used the techniques of genetic engineering to produce a strain of mice that lacked this protein transporter. In such transgenic mice, dopamine lingers outside brain cells, stimulating surrounding neurons hundreds of times longer than normal. Caron and colleagues found that when they placed the mice in an unfamiliar environment, such as a new cage, the animals groomed themselves excessively and ran around the cage, mirroring the bizarre behaviors experienced by people with schizophrenia.

The researchers used this same strain of transgenic mice in the current study. They reasoned that both schizophrenia and Parkinson's disease are characterized by imbalances of dopamine in the brain, and that patients with both diseases experience sleep disturbances. So the researchers sought to further manipulate the mice to study the role of dopamine in the sleep cycle.

First, the researchers treated the mice with a chemical that stops the production of dopamine entirely. In fairly short order, the mice had used up their initial supply of dopamine and were running on empty.

The mice became rigid, immobile, and unable to sleep or dream, displaying symptoms similar to those experienced by patients with Parkinson's disease, the researchers said.

The researchers then measured the electrical activity in each animal's hippocampus, the region of the brain known to be involved in emotion and memory, during three major brain states: wakefulness, quiet sleep and dreaming (also known as rapid eye movement sleep). Using electrodes finer than a human hair implanted into individual neurons, the researchers could monitor signals passed among hundreds of neurons in the treated mice. They found a lack of dopamine completely suppressed brain activity and behaviors associated with quiet sleep and dreaming.

To verify that the sleep disturbances were caused by a lack of dopamine, the researchers gave the mice L-dopa, a drug used to increase the levels of dopamine in Parkinson's disease patients. The treated animals regained the brain patterns and behaviors associated with sleep and dreaming, demonstrating the critical role dopamine plays in the sleep-wake cycle, according to the researchers. Further pharmacological testing revealed that L-dopa exerted its effects by docking at a specific site, called the D2 receptor, on the surface of the neurons.

"Sleep disorders may be the first sign of Parkinson's disease," said lead study investigator Kafui Dzirasa, an M.D.-Ph.D. student working in Nicolelis's laboratory.
 
Well i didn't read, but as an ADD member, i can't even FATHOM the thought of taking my adderall everyday.

I take it probably 1 or 2 X a month, and usually just self medicate with opiates and weed.

Opiates IMHO are the best drugs for ADD(can't speak for ADHD) since...well since ever. They should be the gold standard in treating ADD, but instead we get....adderall.

Ok yeah lets give STIMULANTS to HYPER KIDS to make them better!! By God why did we not think of this before Hitler??

I think the reason for that goes something like this:
People with ADD or ADHD have less active cerebral cortex's than normal people, which in turn makes them hyperactive, and stimulants stimulate this under-stimulated (poor word choice I know) part of the brain, therefore making those with the disease able to focus and pay attention normally again.
That's really general but I'm pretty sure that's how the therapeutic mechanism of stimulants work for people with ADD or ADHD but please correct me if I'm wrong
 
^ I tried to answer this question as best I can in the following quote from another thread since many people experience a similar side effect including myself. Take it with a grain of salt though sine dopamine's role in sleep is still an ambiguous subject.
Thanks. very interesting stuff, I mixed up norepinephrine with dopamine it seams as I recall reading something similar to what you posted but not as through. Good info, sometimes its hard to find the real gritty details and research like that.
I think the reason for that goes something like this:
People with ADD or ADHD have less active cerebral cortex's than normal people, which in turn makes them hyperactive, and stimulants stimulate this under-stimulated (poor word choice I know) part of the brain, therefore making those with the disease able to focus and pay attention normally again.
That's really general but I'm pretty sure that's how the therapeutic mechanism of stimulants work for people with ADD or ADHD but please correct me if I'm wrong

Yeah I remember hearing that rationale posted before as well as reading it somewhere. It probably explains why I found opioids to help with focus, most likely an indirect dopamingertic effect, although now that I'm on heavier doses for pain I'm more likely to pay less attention from sedation but in low doses it makes sense..
 
^^My chartreuse chinchilla (aka ME) seems to think that almost everyone could benefit from some extra dopamine (except people with schizophrenia and sexual predators of course :))
 
^^My chartreuse chinchilla (aka ME) seems to think that almost everyone could benefit from some extra dopamine (except people with schizophrenia and sexual predators of course :))

Very well said lol. I hope your not SWIM'ing on blue light, the top floor pool does not in fact exist :P jk Dopamine is one hell of a drug :D I can think of a few friends who are MAJOR risk takers and adrenaline junky's that probably don't need anymore dopamine too!
 
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