EADD Theology Megathread

[Shambles]

Never implied that mysef. I was speaking hypothetically for the sake of Pagey's response.

The implication is inherent. If failed suicides survive because they are "looked after by a superior being" then succesful suicided are not being looked after by a superior being.

 

[Raasyvibe]

The implication is inherent. If failed suicides survive because they are "looked after by a superior being" then succesful suicided are not being looked after by a superior being.

er, no. I was speaking hypothetically to make a point....

um.... like if u told me "I don't believe in God, so im going to watch spider porn fantasies" and I said "Well, if there is no God,why don't you just go the whole way and create your own spider porn"?

It woudn't neccessarily imply I didn't believe in God, I was just speaing hypthetically to make a point.

Do you see?

and sorry for the awful analogy's again.

 

[Shambles]

Erm... no. Sorry but I really don't see your point at all. Your analogy makes no sense in and of itself let alone as a way of elucidating your (and/or your deity's) stance on suicide. Hypothetically, if two people attempt suicide and one dies and one doesn't - why?

 

[NightsEpiphany]

Sorry to butt in.. perhaps the successful suicided made a conscious choice not to be part of God and His plan for us so would have been subject to cause and effect and his own will.

 

[Raasyvibe]

^^^ To Shambles

I think the fact that it didn't succeed when in all logic, it should have, made me have this consuming need to find a reason for my existence - because there had to be a reason for me to have survived what would have killed anyone, there just had to be.

I percieved this as her saying, God (or whatever force above) had allowed her to live, for whatever reason.

Now whether God really did make a judgement and act I wouldn't have ANY idea...

So, for the sake of argument I started "speaking hypothetically"....

Well if it wasn't for the superior looking after you, you should have been dead years ago.

As it transpires, Pagey reveals it wasn't God or a force above that saved her.... It's more of a "parallel world type thingy".

but it's not a God and it's got nothing to do with any kind of religion I've looked into so far. More of a parallel world type thingy - well that makes it sound kinda dumb but I've actually looked into it a lot

And now I'm more confused than you

 

[Shambles]

Sorry to butt in.. perhaps the successful suicided made a conscious choice not to be part of God and His plan for us so would have been subject to cause and effect and his own will.

You could say that but that ultimately means little or nothing as far as I can tell. Nothing other than natural causes to be seen.

Is a subject rather close to my heart as my younger brother commited suicide aged 17. And did so in the most drawn-out, purpleswollen and agonising way possible and - most importantly - changed his mind shortly after initiating the "cause and effect". Was so horrific it made national tabloid copy. His last words were "I think I've done something rather silly". He lasted another day or two in unbelievable pain whilst his organs failed one by one. When I said goodbye to him at the funeral parlour we weren't even allowed to touch him cos the toxin he used was so vicious touching his flesh would transfer it and trigger the same "cause and effect" stuff.

It was cause and effect. No benevolent deity was there to ease one moment of his days of suffering. Not that I'd expect there to be obviously. Cos it's all cause and effect.

 

[Pagey]

Shambles I'm so sorry to hear about your brother. I can't imagine what it must have been like to see him go through that. I don't really know what to say other than wherever he is now, I'm sure he's happier. I don't believe in any kind of afterlife but I know that the people I've lost are in a better place somehow.

As it transpires, Pagey reveals it wasn't God or a force above that saved her.... It's more of a "parallel world type thingy".


And now I'm more confused than you

Yeah kay sorry I was very unclear earlier, I was in a bit of a rush. Let me try to explain myself a bit better -
Basically I believe that there is another world that we live in conjunction to. This world would be inhabited by spirit/demon-type creatures. I really hate using those words as they don't grasp the concept at all, but well it's exactly that, a concept, so I wouldn't know how else to explain it. Occasionally there are cross-overs between the two worlds...I'm sure you can guess the sort of thing I'm referring to, although I don't by any means believe all of it.
I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Aleister Crowley but that's basically a good summary of what I believe in. Well, not all the fucked up human sacrifice stuff, but I particularly admire what he says about all of us having a sort of innate potential that we're meant to fulfill. That's the easiest way to summarise what I meant earlier on. So basically I do believe there are forces out there beyond our power and understanding, they just don't come anywhere near a conventional description of 'God'.
I'm not saying I believe in the 'supernatural' or whatever as I think that's a very simplistic way to put it. I guess lots of people would kind of scoff at me for what I did describe but eh. That's what I believe in and it's helped me live my life better so far.

 

[Shambles]

Shambles I'm so sorry to hear about your brother. I can't imagine what it must have been like to see him go through that. I don't really know what to say other than wherever he is now, I'm sure he's happier. I don't believe in any kind of afterlife but I know that the people I've lost are in a better place somehow.

I didn't see him go through that. It happend at the height of my junky/crackhead daze so I was essentially uncontactable. Family eventually sent the police on me to inform me a week or so after it happened. I got back just in time to see him dead - still swollen, covered in untouchable purple patches of toxic flesh - in his coffin at the funeral parlour. He wasn't home. Is he still somewhere? I couldn't say. I don't really believe in afterlives but do feel him Here sometimes. I presume it's just patchy subconscious memories but is soothing too.

I have no firm position on "supernatural" stuffs. I generally believe what is known to be true and/or reasonable speculation based 'pon that. There is no "beyond what we can know" stuff. We can know everything. But that doesn't mean we do yet. Deities seem extremely unlikely though so don't have much truck with such things. If they exist they are a mixed bag at best.

 

[Pagey]

Fuck that's awful. Once again, I'm really sorry.

Myeah fair enough. I'm not really trying to convince anyone as I know it's a bit of an unconventional position anyway - and I don't feel the need to convince anyone in any case. It's just a conclusion I came to after lots of extensive Crowley reading and I like it for myself.
I agree with the 'we can know everything' thing though.

 

[Shambles]

I don't go in for "we can't know everything" really. I actually think we can. Eventually. The closer you examine reality the stranger it gets... but I don't believe stuff that's just conjecture. That's not to say I don't take mental wanderings down various routes. It's just that such things remain as conjecture til proven otherwise. Belief is a big word for me. It suggests some kinda evidence to elevate it to such status. But I dream of pretty things and often speak to hyperdimensional pixes and elfs and stuff.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

Sham Apart from God the whole universe is cause and effect isn't it? We chose to be separate from God and we have the freedom to exist independent from Him. It was not Gods plan for man to be subject to disease and death. It sounds like you're angry at God but God offers us Life. I'm sorry to hear about your brother..gutted and i've agonised over writing this post but there is nothing in God that is about death. Separation from God is death.

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. Revelations 21.4

The 'old order' is sin, cause and effect, karma if you like. There will be an end to suffering and death. I believe that.

 

[Shambles]

So you're saying that it's ultimately his fault for "rejecting god"? At age 17. And taking extreme - but very rash - action for his own reasons none of us can possibly know. Thanks. Nice deity you have there

Am not angry at any god. I don't believe in any god and never have. What pisses me off is religious folk trying to explain away the brutality of life by blaming the victims. It's perverse in the extreme.

I know you mean well but y'all have no idea how offensive such views are. Y'all don't see how vile it is cos you's wrapped up in a cosy fantasy blanket and spew platitudes like they were going outta fashion but the shallowness of it is repulsive to me. There's realities out there you're shitting on from your imagined ivory towers dontcha know.

There is nothing about any god in the reality I spilt up there. It was simple cause and effect. I can accept that cos it's plainly true. Try bringing blame games into it - and I include imaginary Edenesque blame games - and I get pissed off. There are manifold reasons why I loathe religion. Here is one concrete example. It provides hate and blame when love and acceptance is all that is required. Is very simple really. Accept what is real. Eschew vile fantasy.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

So you're saying that it's ultimately his fault for "rejecting god"? At age 17. And taking extreme - but very rash - action for his own reasons none of us can possibly know. Thanks. Nice deity you have there

Yes he had his own reasons but you blame my deity?

 

[Shambles]

No i don't blame your deity. I blame nothing. He did what he did cos he felt that way for several months without anybody noticing. The plant toxin he used was kinda rare and took months to grow so I presume he was less than happy during that period. I blame nobody but do feel guilt as the signs were obvious in hindsight. But I wasn't there cos I was shooting speedballs day and night in a town far away. I don't blame me but I do feel guilt for absenteeism and anger at the loss when it could surely have been prevented.

And not like that. Nobody deserves such torture. The suffering involved was beyond imagination. Does anybody deserve that?

No. Because there is no cosmic justice. There is nothing but cause and effect. No intervention. Intercessionary prayer does nothing but cause death anyway. When it has any effect at all. Because belief in deities is poison.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

Why should there be cosmic justice if theres no God?

 

[Shambles]

There shouldn't and there isn't. This is obvious. And peoples' attempts to shoehorn it in where it doesn't exist leave a very sour sour taste as mentioned.

 

[Pagey]

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. Revelations 21.4

No offense but where does that fit in....?

 

[NightsEpiphany]

It means there will be no more suffering. There wont be the kind of agony that leads people to kill themselves.

I hoped it would be a comfort to Sham. Reading back I hope you can find some kind of comfort from it in dark times too ..as I do.

 

[Pagey]

No I understand what it means, I was just wondering where/when that happens. Is it supposed to be after death?

 

[1394]

I know you mean well but y'all have no idea how offensive such views are. Y'all don't see how vile it is cos you's wrapped up in a cosy fantasy blanket and spew platitudes like they were going outta fashion but the shallowness of it is repulsive to me. There's realities out there you're shitting on from your imagined ivory towers dontcha know.
/QUOTE]

Well put. I actually couldn't believe some of the stuff I read up above.